freakydiver

"Assumption is the mother of all f-ups." How on earth do these threads get so out of hand. I've seen FIVE CLOSE FRIENDS DIE jumping, strangely enough, four in the last five years, and get this RON of those four in the last five years, only one was due to a misjudgement under canopy. So much for the odds. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I am sick of this thread beyond all belief and twice closed down my window before asking the same question Canuck. BTW, I guess, go canucks... I got into a very heated debate with Kallend about this very same issue, I'm pretty sure canopy related incidents have either gone down OR AT THE VERY LEAST stayed the same while, and I'll say this once again, while # of jumpers has increased, so maybe, JUST MAYBE, the situation out there isn't as bad as it may seem inside of this forum based on ones and zeros. Anyhow, F^&* it all I'm goin jumpin and I'll buy anyone in this forum a jump ticket to jump with me because you are all my brothers and sisters in the real world. Blue ones... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Jeeze 120 is large? I AM getting old -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Or soul seek. I know the site looks corny as all hell and back, decent availability tho... link... http://www.slsk.org/ -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I'm simply suggesting a way to perhaps prevent even just one individual from getting swoop is cool eyes. Agreed on the time issue, Blu Skys... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

That is not my point at all had you actually read my previous posts. My point is perhaps showing someone a video early on in their career might make them think twice about trying something that people take 100s if not 1000s of jumps to learn. I'm not saying use it as INSTRUCTION more as PREVENTION. I'm not saying it would REPLACE actual jump expereince but perhaps get them to see how hard what looks easy to do really is. We get them to pull on time just by telling them to do so (usually lol)... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

"Watching video does not make you a better skydiver, or canopy pilot....If watching TV did these things, I should be able to drive like the guys on "Dukes of Hazzard", and be as fit as the chicks I watch working out on ESPN." How can you possibly say that? What is wrong with a little education through a video?? Wouldn't a video shown to someone early on in their jumping career showing the problems that can arise very fast when swopping be educational? Wouldn't a video showing the progression someone goes through to get to the point of advanced swooping be beneficial?? I certainly wouldn't have minded knowing that I don't have to go straight for 90's or 180s ten years ago. I wouldn't have minded someone saying hey, look, if you want to learn how to swoop - do double front approaches for a good number of jumps to get that right. What other method of education would you propose. And, I am not saying that a video would replace human interaction BY ANY MEANS, I am simply saying that by making someone aware of how hard it is to get to the point of being able to drive like the dukes of hazard, maybe they would seek the proper assistance to begin down that road once they've made up their minds to do so. Does that honestly sound way off base to you??? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I know one jumper who no longer jumps because of complications with a cut-away and a slider stow, he walks with quite a limp still - 8 years later. Just watchin yer back, blue skys... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Right on - not knowing Tom, but having been a huge fan for a good solid couple of years, I'll be he doens't mind hiking Its akin to the difference between backcountry snowriding and going to the resort I'd imagine. Gimme my backcountry any day over the craziness at them resorts! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I just meant - don't let the day run out before making sure someone has the person's back. Talk to someone in charge at the DZ, get a highly competent canopy pilot to go and make a suggestion to the individual... Sorry about the miscommunication... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Every time any one is at the DZ and see's an "interesting" landing, run and educate as quickly as possible. I wish someone had done that with me b4 my 101st jump (the one with the five inch divot left by my face). I would've killed for some knowledge on, "this is how to carve a final approach" or "try learning with two front riser approach methodology". -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I'm with you one hundred percent. Sorry for gettin all bent outta shape. I like Canuck know that Square One definately does their part in terms of cracking down and should be appluaded for doing so. I feel like I should almost shut up and go out there and get my instructor ratings now just to help out with the cause, but that would mean getting more than my A license wouldn't it lol... In all seriuosness, perhaps something revolutionary is in order here, perhaps a group or coalition against non-educated canopy flight. (I am being serious here) If I may, "education is not going to affect the injury or fatality rates significantly, and a significant reduction is what is needed RIGHT NOW." ... even one life saved would and could be considered significant. Its too bad more people don't read these forums... Bluest Skys all. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Seriously - check all of the local dumpsters. My car got broken into once in college during final weeks. My dumb ass had all of my final papers and stuff in there as well as ALL OF THE DISCS with backups. THANK GOD I found it all in a dumpster four blocks away or I'd still be in school. Good luck and vibes your way! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Around and around we go - back to my original idea. "I'm saying there ARE DZO's, S&TA's, riggers and instructors out there telling people to buy small canopies at low experience levels." With proper education, gosh I feel as though I've said this ten times, with proper education, starting with jump one and through the early stages of one's jumping career, perhaps one could be molded to realize the negative aspects of downsizing to quickly. Let me ask you this, is there currently on average any material in an AFF class that pertains to high performace canopies? My bet would be a flat out no. Then the student goes out and makes his first three or four jumps. Then the student sees johnny hot shot 540in one kick ass swoop and thinks, shoot, how hard could it be?? I thought that way, luckily I made it out alive and unscathed. Bottom line - you asked for a quick solution, how about some basic education in the initial AFF class along the lines of, "when you exit this classroom and for your next one hundred jumps, you will see hot canopy pilots landing out there. You will also not see a few other hot canopy pilots because they thought they were ready for a high performance canopy without really seeking out knowledgeable individual's advice and got in WAY over their heads and are either no longer around or unable to walk." I'd be willing to bet there isn't a whole lot of talk like that in the initial AFF class, there sure wasn't when I went through it. On another note, one could liken this thread to motorcycle purchasing. I've gone through my share of bikes over the past few years and one thing still holds true in my own mind. I was at the Honda dealer wanting a huge bad ass bike and the saleswoman actually took the time to assess my skill level and make a product recommendation based on that ultimately recommending a smaller cc bike for me. Why can't canopy manufactuer's work with DZO or S&TA or AFF Jumpmaster in that same fashion? Oh yah, i forgot, because they won't. I guess its all on the sales folks shoulders! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I'm with you there - I tend to get a little bent out of shape if someone I don't even know is telling me something. However, I've been trying to change my attitude over the past couple of years (my temper used to get me into trouble alot growing up) and I really try to listen to whatever anyone is telling me, even if inside I'm thinking to myself - uh huh, yah, yah, blah blah blah, whatever... "But there are times when it's not appropriate, and even condescending." I think the majority of people giving advice anywhere in the skydiving community at any given moment are really ultimately just trying to help and I try to remember that at all times - getting gear advice, getting axed from a load, etc... BTW, you are not stupid, you jump from the aircraft that the rest of the world thinks is all perfectly safe -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

"What law? Isn't that regulation?" You see what holds up in court. I gurantee you this sitting right next to a trial lawyer that has tried 14 skydiving cases four of which had to due with DZO negligence. It is their dire responsibility to say yes or no to someone jumping on their DZ because THEY ARE THE DZO. "The manufacturers are NOT going to take on that responsibility. Several of them have told me that flat out." Wasn't one of your original questions how can we bring safety to the table quickly? Why not build a rapport with those manufactuers so they play an active roll in selling parachutes?? Honestly, if I were a canopy manufacturer, I might be so inclined so sell a canopy with less of a performance envelope to someone knowing damn well I'd make more money off of them because they will live to upgrade down the line. "As for "signing off" by a DZO, S&TA or AFF JM - these are the same people recommending small canopies to new jumpers right now. How do we get through to THEM that 1.3 wingloadings aren't safe for the majority of people with 50 jumps? Remember, these are already the people giving out the type of advice that gets newbies injured or killed (or so full of gear fear that they end up quitting the sport). " Not true at all, before the passing of Jeff Sands, I WITNESSED HIM TELL TWO 100 jump wonders they were not ready for canopies loaded at 1.4. WITNESSED. Also, 1.3 should be relatively manageable by any jumper with a license IMHO - IF they were taught to plan out their patterns and think ahead with regards to out. "If you can't do that, then all this protesting that regulation is wrong is nothing more than noise." Well shoot, I guess I'm just full of noise. I guess I learned nothing in my 10 years in the sport. I guess my opinions holds no water. Actually, if you ask me, I'ver heard DZO's, S&TA's, AFF Jumpmasters, Static Line jumpmasters ALL reccommend against a canopy purchase for a particular student. So perhaps you are just choosing to hear the noise you want to hear. Don't act like every single DZO (etc......) is an idiot. THE FATALITY RATES are just about the same as they were ten years ago, the number of jumpers has increase exponentially. Its simple math. Its not like your example is occuring every which way. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

EXACTLY. Who better knows the experience of a jumper besides those that jump with them? Also 30 was just about the average when I first started jumping 10 years ago I would gander... I think perhaps one thing that all swoopers should realize is that a canopy loaded heavily versus a canopy loaded say at mid-level will give the "average" swooper about the same distance. I say "average" meaning that is not all the jumper does - i.e. hop and pops and swoop. They take a weekend off here and there. They are not entirely in tune with their canopies. Is 30-40 feet THAT IMPORTANT to go to a higher loaded canopy? "Something that no amount of classes and videos will give you with out the jumps...Yes, Just having a lot of jumps does not mean you have skills, but it does mean you have EXPERIENCE. Something you will not get without jumps. " How can you say that (perhaps I missed your angle and that isn't directed against my post) - but, you show enough video of swoops gone bad and teach people about why bad swoops hurt then perhaps they wouldn't ever get themselves into that position to begin with until asking many questions of many locals. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Ten years ago, the participation in the sport of skydiving was half of what it is today (again, this is a guess, although I think I just read this recently, and I'm too lazy to look it up). Using the incident rate as a gauge would snuff out this whole thread right here and now because the fact of the matter is, there are less injuries per skydiver today than there were 10 years ago due to numbers alone. I disagreed with this fact as well until Kallend put it into numbers for me awhile back, but it is true. The death rate per year hasn't grown nearly as fast as the participation has. Anyhow, I'm straying away from what I really wanted to say. I don't think regulation will really stop the idiot who wants to get that bad ass fast canopy and hook himself into the ground. But, if early on in that person's career he/she saw the effects of a small canopy and a mistake under it, they would think twice about their own personal progression. I know I did. I only had a 100 jumps when I got my Sabre 135 and hooked it into the ground. I left a five inch divot where my face hit and cracked my Fac Diver completely in half on impact. It scared the piss out of me, the ground all coming straight at me. I thought I was done. Luckily since I'm gumby (old nickname given to me for being so freakin limber and flexible) I walked away with nothing more than a headache. Now, if we can get people to realize during their first 50 jumps THROUGH AFF jumpmasters, DZOs, and S&TAs or any freakin body with more than a couple of hundred jumps that small canopies and even small bad decisions can really fuck someone up, that would seem to me to be more than enough. If someone showed me a video of some swoops gone bad B4 I bought that 135 perhaps I would've thought twice about my dumb ass no out setup that got me into trouble. "Tell us how to make that happen on every dz in the US, and how to make it happen quickly." It is every single employee's DUTY to check out every single jumper on site that day and know them in and out. Its required by law. Perhaps we could start there. Perhaps the manufacturers have some responsibility in the matter. Perhaps manufactures should (god i kant spell, sorry all) require the local DZO or S&TA or at the very bloddy least, an AFF jumpmaster to sign off on canopy purchases. Give someone with the knowledge the ability to say yes they are ready for such and such a canopy or no they are not. I still hold my argument that not that many more people are dying in the sport of skydiving over say five years ago and am open to correction by all means. Also, ten years ago, it was even more extremely rare for anyone to be in a headdown attitude or have participated in a 300 way. Those are all aspects of the sport that self regulation has managed to get most participants through safely. Self regulation made the 300 way in Arizona successful because those involved really checked out all of the participants and gave them the yes or no. Why couldn't / shouldn't the same approach be used with canopy purchases.... Blue Skys -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I would think that for alot of BASE jumpers the hike is a welcomed part of it. As a backcountry skiier and snowboarder, I do get into the hike and use it as time for myself. This is one of the reasons BASE attracts me, I would love to combine my obsession of hiking in Utah with my obsession of parachuting. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Are that many more jumpers dying say in the past three years than say the three year span before that? (i.e. I am too lazy to look up the numbers). I hear a lot of good advice from experienced jumpers and instructors at the three DZs I frequent most directed towards new students regarding downsizing. Whats wrong with just getting the education part of it right? I can think of many examples of where a student or lowtime jumper was talked out of a canopy purchase because someone reasoned with them. Granted education will never weed out the idiot who just wont listen, but do you really think regulation will? Just because there are regulations on other aspects of the sport of skydiving doesn't mean deaths don't occur in those other areas. Education is key. Getting a new student to realize early on in their carrer that listening to your elders is key. Keying in on hot shot low number jumpers is key. Getting the local DZO or S&TA in the loop is key, they can make the call on someones abilities under canopy because they wouldn't be in the position they are in otherwise (I would hope). I've wrestled with this particular issue in the sport of skydiving and gone back and forth, but I really don't think regulation is the answer. I think getting people to realize that a good canopy swoop takes a long long time to perfect and can have VERY negative impact on the quality of one's life is key, and getting a new student or low time jumper to see that is key. If they don't, it won't matter what obstacles are put in their way in terms of regulation. It isn't that difficult to forge a log book and all it takes is one little mistake to make walking or breathing a bitch for the rest of one's days. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Wow no doubt - 30 feet is quite a long fall, way more than enough altitude to really do some damage. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

I imagine swearing is taboo on this forum, but fuk people who steal rigs and the such. Tar and feather for sure. Good luck recovering your rig! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Not many people have as much experience as you either. Not many people have even 1000 let alone 7 thou... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

You stowed it (slider) behind your helmet while diving? What was it stowed to? Would the stow have given if you had to chop? I had a rigger look at my stow velcro once and tell me it was definately wiser of me to make sure everything was in good working order b4 stowing the slider under the 1 inch velcro in case I ever had to chop. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

Just curious, but to all the folks who claim to be comfortable landing their smaller reserves in bad situations, have you actually been in really bad situations and landed them? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --