ZigZagMarquis

Have you tried contacting the mfgr? http://www.precision.aero/index1.htm They should be able to hook you up with a manual and answer your question too.

Yes, set your own brakes... un-stow your slider... and cock your pilot chute... AND... if... you pay a packer, you take your chances.

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May I ask why? ?? This has come up around here before.... Wasn't it, in part, because some mfgr managed to ship a bunch of reserve ripcords where the ball on the end (handle end) had be "set", but not swedged? As it goes... the "story" I heard was that the person or persons assembling the ripcords would get a "bunch" ready by placing the ball on the end and "setting" it in place with a light tap from a hammer and set it asside until they had a number ready to be swedged... but somewhere along the line a bunch of these got shipped out before swedging. In the field, it was discoverd when someone yanked hard enough on the reserve ripcord to pull the ball off... a POTENTIAL (as in I don't know if this happend in freefall... I think it was on the ground) to leave the cable & pin in place... Anyway, that's what I heard is why mfgr's went to what I've heard called a "proof test" on reserve ripcords they make... to make sure the pin and ball have been swedged properly. Isn't the cable used on reserve ripcords something like 3/32 stainless steel aircraft control cable... which specs out at something like 900 to 1000 lbs tensile strength? So a one time 300 to 600 lb pull on that wouldn't concern me too much... it would be all about testing the swedge on the ball and pin?

I think I've seen a picture of a rig used to test reserve rip cords in Poynter's manual. I want to say it was of Sandy Reid "proof" testing a reserve ripcord a R.I., but I'm not sure. You may want to check through Poynters or call around to some gear mfgr's?

Yeah, I know what you mean... I've had to explain what "crossports" are to a D-Licensed & AFF Jumpmaster rated person once... Anyway, should some basic rigging be a Requirement... well... No, I don't think so... am I surprised when I run into high time jumpers that don't know some basic skills like... hooking up a main canopy or swapping out a D-Bag & pilot chute... yeah, but I don't think it should be a Requirement... us Riggers gotta be able to sponge beer for performing simple tasks around the DZ for the less informed somehow!

Like others have said... ... but too, I thought there was a way to add jumps to an AltiTrack if a jump didn't register for some reason or if you jumped, but didn't have you AltiTrack with you and you're using it to track jump numbers in lieu of a log-book... check the manual... but, personally, call me "old school", but I always found a log book easier... ... also, another option, give you AltiTrack to someone else to take on a skydive for you on some load you're not on to catch the jump numbers up... ... course, the freefall time will get goobered up then too maybe, if you care... ... what was it I said about log books...

Ah! The ol' Feet-Knees-Face technique!

I've got a handful of jumps on Trubo-Zs & Trubo-ZXs. Dang things didn't "land" worth a darn. One jump / landing would be fine... and the next, under basically the same conditions... the thing would plant ya. Glad they're not in production anymore. I saw em drive more then one person out of the sport.

SLP... true enough. Frankly... my "take-away" from this reserected argument over the permanent removal of an RSL from a Jav is my advice to folks that want a Jav, but don't want an RSL is to just leave the thing on and not hook it up... ya never know, you might change your mind.

Yeah, I've heard that dogma before... but I also know a... dead... camera man that would probalby be alive it he had an RSL or AAD... cut-away a mal and spent the rest of his life trying to locate and pull his reserve handle with blood curdling screams just before impact. Anyway... HNS posted some good info too.... to which... MY pet peave is folks to bang RSLs or AADs or this or that in the sport because of "hearsay" or bcause of what the "cool guys do or say" and not because of a decission based on real info... at least HNS makes his decission / opion based on real info, can't argue with that.

AirDive... sorry, I'm going to call you on this one... What are these situations, specifically, are these where an RSL can be fatal?

True enough... to date... my only direct dealing with the FAA was when I went to get signed off for my Authorization to Test when I got my rigger's ticket... and I'd like to keep it that way...

Can you post those pictures, please?

4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests: Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack. The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or altitude, obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of breakaway. True enough... but... per the above, if an RSL is part of the assembly, it has to be used to activate the reserve for SOME OF, but not ALL OF the drop tests... so, if I have a rig with an RSL, it makes no difference to the TSO if I jump with it un-hooked... right?... so, it would make no difference if the RSL lanyard itself was removed and in my gear bag when I jump, right?... but that gets into the muddy water grey area of how one person can read one thing and see it one way and another can read it a different way, depending on the language. Same thing, different words, I may choose to keep the RSL on my rig and just always jump with it disconnected. While another person with the same type of gear also doesn't want to jump with the RSL hooked up, but he or she chooses to remove it altogether. Effectively, both are the same, but in some folks eye's one of us is "wrong." Anyway... RSLs... they'll be debated by skydivers until the end of time. You do realize too that there are lots of things a mfgr can do to their system (i.e. make changes) without voiding the TSO and without having to re-do the tests? Go grab yourself any two rigs of the model by the same mfgr, but made a few years apart and I'll bet you can find differences... I know I have.

OBE at this point in the discussion, I suppose, but this is what I was thinking of: 4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests: Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack. The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or altitude, obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of breakaway. i.e. ... during the TSO tests, if an RSL is part of the assembly, it has to be used to activate teh reserve for SOME OF, but not ALL OF the drop tests.

Interesting. Makes me wonder if I want to shell out the $150 to Para-Gear for the guchi-fied sheet metal clamps & fish scale to have a set of the stuff for my own or keep borrowing someone else's when I feel I need it.

1) When it gets to the point where the FAA has to "interpret" things... we're screwed. 2) The "fix" to this is for Sunpath to more clearly and positively state things with regards to RSLs on their gear AND when updating their owners manuals clearly and specifically state that this "such and such" revision supercedes pervious versions... why... refer back to #1.

Terry, thanks. I wish someone could come up with some written documentation on this incident. I'd love to write Sunpath about it. Basically, IMO, this all boils down to if you own a Jav or Odyssey, you'd best leave the RSL lanyard on, even if you never hook it up. Bummer for the folks out there that have had it removed and now take it to a rigger that doesn't want to put his or her name on the card. To a certain extent, I think Sunpath has brought this on themselves by writting down one thing and saying another.

Should is not the same as must, so it is only wishy washy in that they want it to happen without it being required, however, there is the reported case of a rigger being reprimanded by the FAA... Yeah, that is the part I have a rub with and would still like somemore details (evidence) on. If Sunpath is going to be wishy washy about what they say about RSLs on their rigs in writting, but their representatives verbally state more positively that the RSL must stay on, hooked up or not, to the FAA that the FAA is taking action based on this / the mfgr's intent vs. a rigger that packed a Jav sans RSL; bad on Sunpath for hanging someone out like that.

True enough. Help me help you. Can you cast any more light and details on the comment you made up-thread about the FAA's ruling on the subject... etc... and... etc.... the FAA officially repremanding a rigger who packed a Jav with the RSL removed? I'm willing to write a letter to Sunpath saying they need to clarify their wording on this subject and I'd like to reference the incident / official ruling you speak of.

The FAA's ruling on the subject is that a rigger who packs a Javelin without the RSL is not following the manufacturer's instructions. Recently a rigger was officially reprimanded by the FAA when he removed the RSL at the jumper's request. Bill, thanks, not disagreeing with you, but do you have that in writting or can point us towards where its written down? I'd still like to see Sunpath state something more firmly on this topic. They're continued un-clear (IMO) written guidance vs. what they "say" and "do" continues their "rep" as a company that builds a good product, but has shitty customer relations (also IMO).

No, its not clear, ergo all the discussions of Sunpath, Jav's & RSLs here and elsewhere. Sunpath's memo, circa 16 May 2005... To Whom It May Concern: 16 May 2005 Regarding the removal of the reserve static line (RSL) from Javelin and Javelin Odyssey sport skydiving harness/container systems, the position of Sun Path Products, Inc is as follows: Our harness/container systems and all related accessories and components are tested in accordance with SAE 8015 Rev. B. During our most current TSO testing, evaluation and approval the Javelin and Javelin Odyssey harness/container system incorporates the reserve static line as part of the complete system and permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended. Our reserve static line is built with a snap shackle for easy disconnect from the main (wearers) left riser, if the user wishes to not use the option. Sincerely, Dave Singer Derek Thomas Engineer President/Owner Sun Path Products, Inc ------- If Sunpath really, NO SHIT, doewn't want RSLs removed from their rigs, the above should say... "and permanent removal of this part SHALL NOT BE DONE." I'll dig into it when I have more time, but my recollection of the TSOs are that if an RSL is to be included on the rig / system under test, that activation of the reserve has to be accomplished by the RSL for a ceratain number of the tests... not all of them. Thus, what difference does it make to the TSO for that system if the RSL lanyard is there, but not hooked up, or if the lanyard is gone altogether? Same thing different words, if the TSO for my Jav is still "valid" if the RSL is there, but disconnected when I jump it, how is that any different then if the lanyard is totally removed? There really is no difference, technically, but not the way the lawyers would see it, I'm sure. I just wish Sunpath would take a firmer written stance on this one way or the other, quit sitting on the fence, saying that RSLs should be permanently removed from their rigs, but writting down something less clear.

PZone... thanks for posting that. I agree with you that Sunpath's statement... "permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended."... coming from the mfgr should carry a lot of weight, but it doesn't specifically state that permanent removal of the RSL from a Jav or Odyessy is something illegal that voids the TSO, SHALL NOT be done, etc. My suspision is that if one were to talk to someone from Sunpath, that's what they would say, but they don't want to write it down. Also, another good point is if they're DO update their manuals, what they should also do is clearly state which previous manuals and rigs (by DOM and s/n) the update supercedes... but they probably won't do that.