ZigZagMarquis

But you forgot... 13) Stand-up at around 8 or 10K to tighten up your leg straps, chest strap, put on your gloves, clean the boogers off of your goggles, straighten your hair, etc. because you couldn't be bothered to get on the plane ready to skydive. and, if you're a Tandem Master... 14) At around 9K demand the other 18 people in the airplane cram into the aft third of the airplane so you can have plenty of room to hook up your Tandem student... and also... if your Tandem student is a hot young chick, do the same, but start at 7K so you have extra time to grope her.

Talon FX sort of a Voodoo/Talon FS????!!? *confused look* I thought a Talon FS was sort of a Voodoo/Talon 2??? So how much is a Talon FX going to cost? Over 3-grand??

You just learned two valuable lessons... 1) The value of doing a gear check before every jump. 2) You pay a packer, you take your chances.

I thought Bill said the freezr II looked like it would fit glasses? ... you'd have to try one to see... pun intended...

ah, sorry 2s, my bad... the rant comment was directed at the OP... seems he just wanted to get something off his chest by taking the piss out of Perris via the internet... hope he feels better

Thanks. Its not so much the 50lb head thing with me as it is trying to find a full-face that I can get a pair of glasses on under... ... dunno, maybe it can't be done.

Bill... isn't their a sign by manifest at Perris that says "No one under canopy above 3500 ft"... or am I having a flash back to many many years ago? Anyway, good point to bring up. As I'm sure you know and hopefully most will see, a lot of this "depends", but the key factor is COMMUNICATION. At first, when I read your post and you said you passed this person at 3K and you pulled at 2.5K, I didn't think it was all that bad... until I re-read the part about this high canopy had been from the PREVIOUS LOAD... thus, they were out there, up high, for awhile. Anyway... anyway... I hate to muddy the waters anymore, but if I find myself in freefall with a problem that I'd rather sort out under canopy RIGHT NOW, I doubt I'm going to cruise on down to 3K and pull rather then pull higher and deal with the rest later. If I did that, all going better after getting saddled, I'd like to think I'd be head's up enough to stay out from under the prevailing jump run until I got down lower and could work my way back into the pattern. I guess my point is, I'd hate to see someone with some sort of a problem not pull until down to 3K because they were afraid of pulling high and give up altitude that they could have used. It doesn't sound like this was a factor in your recent experience though.

bummer, sounds like I'll be sticking with my ProTech still. Problem is, ProTech's don't do much in the way of preventing bloody noses, split lips and broken teeth... all of which I've experienced during "combat RW". Yeah, yeah, I know, just get contacts, but its the thought of jammin' something in my eyes that just wigs me out... ... but "that" they say is a "different story."

Bill, Can you post a link to or post a picture of what what of these critters looks like? What about us geeks that wear glasses... do you think we could get a pair of glasses on under one of these? ... sorry, not knowing what one looks like, that may be a totally silly question.

aka... what master rigger said... remember, you'll catch more bees with honey... I would be interested in seeing pictures too though? What kind of rig are we talking about here? ---------- Chuck, Its well known that the loft(s) at Perris charge big $$ for folks who want "instant gradification"... for example, those who want a reserve repack "today" or "overnight". Its been discussed a lot around here and IMO I suppose its okay... if they can charge that and someone is willing to pay it, so what? What does irk me a bit is a lot of these places will also nickel and dime their customers for stuff that a lot of us other riggers will not... for example, a new cypress loop or changing out cypress batteries will draw you an additional charge at a lot of these places... again, though, if their customers are willing to pay it... *shrugs* ------------ 2s' I think there are at least two rigging lofts at Perris... I'm sure someone will correct me quickly if I'm wrong... thing is though, I'm not 100% sure if their is any real connection between the DZO and either loft... ???... as in complaining to them may not get you really far. Ranting about the place on DZ.com wouldn't seem to be of much use either.

I'm starting to think that "living off the grid" isn't such a bad thing...

A very course (broad brush) "rule of thumb" to answer your question would be to take the $$ of a new Racer minus $1 for each jump is on this used container you're polling about and then see if $400 is a good deal or not. However, having said that, there are A LOT of other varriables which makes this a big "depends" kinda answer.... for insance, the actual condition of the rig in question (i.e. its got a high number of jumps, but was well taken care of... or its got a low number of jumps, but the owner used it for his intentional saltwater landing training & landing volcanic rock PLF training & power line landing training) and/or what kind of canopies you're thinking on putting in it. If you're really interested in buying a Racer, call Nancy at JumpShack. Good luck.

What's wrong with peeing in showers? Nothing... if you pee right, you can keep athletes foot from being a problem. Woooo Whoooo! Lets all go pee in the shower!!

Moz... I honestly hope it works out well for y'all too... but I was just trying to point out that you might want to reconsider some of the reasons y'all were coming up. Please let know how it turns out.... either way... please also let us know what your final presentation was. Skies!

What's wrong with peeing in showers?

Okay, Moz, PDave, Please, call Cessna. Explain to them your situation including your reasons why you don't want to do this and please post it here. I'd like to hear what they have to say.

UNCLE! ... good luck with your crusade Ddriver... its a good one... but I hope the cure doesn't wind up being worse then the disease.

I'll agree to disagree with you Bill... the two of us are just drawing the line at a different place... but I still don't think the 2001 King Air, Utah, Salt Lake incident was a skydiving incident, per-say, waivers or not.

Chris, I just knew you were going to bring up the 2001, King Air, Salt Lake incident. I know you don't see it the way I do and I know you won't, but IMO that was not a skydiving incident. It just happened to be a bunch of skydivers in a jump plane that had the misfortune to die when their pilot screwed away an IFR approach to landing. I'm a skydiver, if while ridding on a commercial airplane on buisiness travel that plane crashes and I die, was that a skydiving incident? I'm a skydiver, if one slow Sunday morning I'm hanging around the DZ and the DZO / Pilot says, "I'm bored, lets jump in the plane and fly over to the Silver Saddle and get a cup of coffee and breakfast", we get in the Otter and while inroute to the Silver Saddle #2 bursts into flames and the plane crashes and we die... is that a skydiving incident because I'm a skydiver and we were in a jump plane being flown by a jump pilot? A real corner scenario, I know, but NOT a skydiving incident IMO. I'll give you the one where the jump pilot that prangded the plane onto the ground after droping her load of jmpers, but the one about the Otter getting lost in the fog has about as much to do with skydiving only in that it was a jump plane... if it had been a doctor in a V-tailed Bonanza, then it wouldn't have been a skydiving incident. You've missed my point AND I KNOW it is MY fault for making it so badly in the beginning, but you've missed my point none-the-less. No one, not even me, is saying better safety, pilot training & maintenance, is a bad thing. However, just because the, "Its for Safety Sake" card is placed on something doesn't mean it should be beyond reproach, scrutiny or critique is what I'm trying to say. You're obviously very passionite about this topic. In other words, be careful at how broad you paint your brush strokes is what I'm trying to say. If you truely want to go after something, my 2 cents, go after the bottom of the bell curve 3-5% of jump pilots / operations that are so truely inept at their trade that they are a menace to those who ride with them. I've known a few in my time and refused to get in an airplane with them.

Dave, Viloent agreement with you on everything but the extra taxi time degrading safety argument... as in... I'd like to see you convince some FAA or Airport Manager beauracrat hell bent on not allowing intersection departures of that... not saying it can't be done, I'd just like to hear the argument that convinced them that extra taxi time in and of itself was "bad" for safety... possibly if you had some pictures of them and goats... Also, I've been around enough Aviation Mishaps and Mishap Investigations to know that I don't care how STOL your aircraft is, if you take off at the middle of a 10,000 foot runway and something goes wonky shortly after rotation someone in the process of that investigation is going to want to know why you didn't go all the way to the end of the runway... I'd recommend your first response not being, "casue we were hot and sweaty."

Well, sorry Mozencrath, I think 4 out of your 6 arguements are "whinig"... probably stuff I'd whine about too, but that none the less. Anyway, good luck to y'all. Let us know how it turns out. --edit-- Generally speaking (not being fam with your airport) you may want to talk to a pilot about that. Engine shits itself right after rotation + less than pattern altitude + quick turn to reach a preceived safe landing on an improved surface... DOES NOT necessisairly = Goodness.... but there's plenty of other threads here on airmanship, so, that, as they say, is a different story.

Now wait a minute. You were saying that better jump pilot training was necessary. If we're discussing that specific, then, yes, you should remove those accidents that the primary cause was determined to be a mechanical problem... i.e. single engine aircraft, motor explodes and bursts into flames... or say "wing falls off"... i.e. those incidents which IF you'd have had a jump pilot trained as good as a NASA Shuttle Pilot and it wouldn't make any difference should be removed. Admittedly, those numbers are probably pretty small. Now is you want to open up the discussion to include marginally maintened jump planes, fair enough, but if we're just talking jump pilot training, then we need to keep it to that. ------------- I'm really not sure what you were asking here. Could you clearify or give an example of what you mean? Here's a few examples... When was the last time you saw a jump plane going through bad weather, trying to make its destination and go down due to icing? When was the last time you saw a jump plane skid off the end of the runway because it landed in a snow storm and wound up through the end of the fence at the end of the field and on the lot of the gas station across the street? When was the last time you saw a jump plane scud running, in and out of IMC and fly into the side of a mountain? All of the above have happend in GA and Commercial Aviation in conditions which jump ops don't occur. ----------------- Actually, I don't want to cut out things to make them seem so bad. I want to get things to more of an apples to apples comparison. I don't see the point of comparing jump ops to GA ops that are not close to being "like" conditions. I don't want to eliminate any jump ops incidents, just those from the GA side that are not like or nearly like conditions. Actually, it might even make jump ops look worse then your "twice as accident prone" claim. ----------------- Actually, I agree with this approach. If its a ferry flight or a Mx flight, its not a skydiving flight. However, I'd venture the theory that ferry and Mx flights are such a small percentage of the total hours any jump op any DZ carries out within a year, its probably in the noise. However, agian, are we just taling jump pilot training here or both jump pilot training and jump plane Mx? I thought we were just talking jump pilot training? ---------------- Yes, I've seen your website. No I haven't read every last thing on it in infinite detail. Yes, I think its a good website with what I trust is accurate information. As you've stated, you're obviously trying to make a point with the message its trying to send, so its also obvious that its salted with your bias... now mind, I didn't say thats a bad thing... heck, they wouldn't call them opinions if there weren't different opinions or strength there of.

True enough. However, like others have pointed out, some of the proposed arguements vs. this aren't much more then "whining". Also, if you have a mishap, say a runway excursion, after attempting takeoff from mid-field on say a 10,000 foot runway, your calculations withstanding that 5,000 feet of runway would be "just fine" for your aircraft, the fact that you gave up 5,000 feet of usable runway because you didn't want to take that long taxi for what ever reason... I'd bet you a paycheck it WILL BE talked about as a contributing factor in the mishap report. Trust me... my "real job"... almost 20 years experience in the field of Aerospace Engineering, specifically, Flight Test. Pick your battles. Other's opinions may differ, but be equally as vaild... or not. Good luck. to add... Pissing off the locals is a contributor to the demize of may a drop zone. Not that you have to prostrate yourself to them, but, again, pick your battles.

Nick, wise words... I didn't mean to say "scared" per-say, but rather its got riggers in a "highten state of awarness" that they should decide whether they really want to pack Jav's or Odyssey's in light of this whole topic. This past weekend, I saw a senior rigger (me) not take an Odyssey for a repack because the RSL and the hook side of the Velcro it mates to (on the underside of the reserve riser) had both been removed and a master rigger refuse to sign off on the perm removal of the RSL on that same rig. Is that the start of a spine?

... and as the years go by, I'm sure we'll refer to this time as "RSL Mania 2007!"