FLYJACK

Assertion 1... there is a reference to hijacker Cooper having cig stains on right hand. The conjecture is that it is a conflation with the suspect Eugene Cooper, but the problem is he doesn't match the guy in Himmelsbach's book published years earlier and he has "cig stains on fingers, right hand", while Cooper has "cig stains on right hand".. Like most of this case, we just don't know for sure.

but it is also written in the FBI files regarding a seemingly different suspect... after the book came out. So, conflation doesn't make sense unless it was a ninja double conflation through time and space.

Possible, but there is a problem with that... The FBI files were referring to a Merlin Gene Cooper from back east when the cig stains on Cooper's right hand are mentioned... (stains on fingers for Merlin Gene Cooper) The suspect the woman described in Himmelsbach book was in the PNW named Dan Cooper.. they don't appear to be the same person.

No further info on that... Himmelsbach has also mentioned it in his book, not clear where he got it from.

How's that working for you so far... The intro letter was just bait to get Gunther interested,, the person claiming to be Cooper wanted money, that was explained in the book. If the real Cooper lost the money in the jump he would have the motive to try to sell his story...If the real Cooper didn't lose the money, it is unlikely he would contact Gunther or anyone for money.

That is true,,, Gunther could have added it as a coincidence to give Cooper parachute experience or possibly he read about Elsinore in info from Himmelsbach or a FOIA.. But it would have also required the Elsinore suspect to be Cooper... Lyle Cameron walked back his claims and there is no evidence Cooper was at Elsinore. Lyle's big walk back.... "may be coincidental"

That was "Cooper's" first contact letter,, the "Cooper" later stated that he wrote it to get Gunther's attention and he really just wanted money. Maybe you should read the book.

Low voice.. is mentioned during a conversation with Tina,, Rataczak said everything was relayed via Tina except when Cooper said he couldn't get stairs down.. no voice info from the pilots They did have the stews listen to a radio caller's voice..

Yes, he got some things right and lots wrong.... but the info in the narrative was via Clara not "Cooper"... So, the info wasn't first hand.. because of that nothing can be checked.. was Clara making up a story or was Gunther or both?? No way to know.. The only conclusion I have is that Gunther was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.. either a hoaxer or the real Cooper,,

I didn't say he got Elsinore specifically from Himmelsbach. He got case info from Himmelsbach.. that is a fact. Some use Elsinore as proof Gunther got it from Cooper because he had no other way of knowing.. just as you posted... my counter point is that Gunther got case info from Himmelsbach and probably FOIA's... There is a reference to an author doing FOIA's for a book in the FBI files.. So, the Gunther Elsinore claim is bogus, he could have obtained that info before the book was published. Try to keep it straight you have this all screwed up already,, you are now arguing that Gunther did communicate with Cooper/associate. There is lots on Elsinore in FBI files... it has been discussed and posted.. I am not interested in doing your homework for you.

Yes, some have used that to claim Gunther had info from the real Cooper and he was the Elsinore suspect... I don't agree. Gunther never mentioned Elsinore, he had info from Himmelsbach and most likely some FBI files.. IMO, Elsinore was an embellishment by Lyle Cameron who was an FBI informant,,, Lyle later walked back his claims.

Link doesn't work,,, no access

The only BS'er is you,,, You established a strong opinion and when challenged to back it up only then do you search out justification for it.. because your opinion was poorly developed. You are trying to backfill your opinion. Now, backed into a corner you double down on personal attacks.. Repeat, rinse, you follow the same pattern every time.. You still can't admit that the money was in packets... you must have made hundreds of posts attacking me for using the term packets.. because you can't admit you were wrong. Himmelsbach thought it was a hoax... not that Gunther was a hoaxer.. he shared info with Gunther and that explains much of the stuff in the book.. The evidence supports Gunther being contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper, there is no evidence or argument for Gunther making that up.. the person who contacted Gunther may have been a hoaxer or the real Cooper. Even Gunther admits he may have been hoaxed..

Gunther explains it in the book.. contacted the FBI late summer 1972,, and Himmelsbach acknowledged sharing info with Gunther (interview).. probably where he got some of the inside stuff... Plus, Himmelsbach got the Clara letter...

You haven't addressed the facts, you make irrelevant assumptions about Gunther's character.. You haven't even presented an argument.. My conclusion is on based on facts.. yours is based on nothing. You always do this,, you have a strong opinion that you can't defend because it isn't based on facts, just feelings. So, you try to defend that opinion by pulling in irrelevant tainted elements like Jo Weber or attack the credibility of the messenger but never address the facts.. Opinions are worthless without a good argument that back them up.

Your argument is not just irrelevant it is wrong. He wasn't niche, he had a varied career.. that doesn't change anything. If you think he made up the contact with somebody claiming to be "Cooper", named two others also contacted then went to FBI with the info to fabricate a mediocre book then good luck.. Weber is irrelevant..

Gunther named two other people who had been contacted by the person claiming to be Cooper.. Ed Kuhn an editor for Playboy Press and Mark Penzer editor-in-chief for True Magazine.. So, there is no way that Gunther made up it up and contacted the FBI.

Most of the tie particles are sand/feldspar...

I did a FOIA for anything on Gunther, Cooper related or otherwise and the FBI had nothing to add but said anything would be in the released Cooper files. That is their standard answer now. My only conclusion so far based on the facts is that Gunther did not make up the entire story,, he must have been contacted by a hoaxer or the real Cooper..

Captain Thomas Spangler,,, later Major. The Air Force map was furnished to the FBI on Nov 25/71, not months later.. initially calculated by hand it had a 1 mile error. It was later recalculated using a more precise method and had a 0.5 error,, I have never seen an updated map. The Portland radar operator said the plane was about 1-2 miles East of the center of V-23 not East of the "FBI" path.. the "FBI" map had the plane a few miles East of the center of V-23. There is no argument for the Western Flight Path.. somebody stick a fork in it. Spangler didn't create the Air Force map, a unit at Sage did. Interesting, after the sled test Spangler and Soderlind independently came up with nearly identical drop zone maps. Spangler corroborates Soderlind's drop zone. Radar data furnished by Spangler,, (not produced)

Haven't you been paying attention... that makes no sense and doesn't address the question. Would Gunther, a well respected and successful author of mostly financial non fiction books take a hoax he created to the FBI, a Federal crime. Would he risk his reputation and career for a mediocre book in the mid 80's... when there was no reason to go to the FBI. The fact that he went to the FBI with his info and even named another person that the "Cooper" contacted gives that part of Gunther's book credibility. Gunther would have to be dumbest guy in the world to bring his manufactured hoax to the FBI in order to write a mediocre book... a book in which he admits the contact may not be from the real Cooper. The question is,, was he contacted by a hoaxer or the real Cooper.. A third option brought up by "Math of Insects" would be that Gunther was initially contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper then made up the later Clara contact but that has issues.

Gunther wrote mostly non-fiction (financial) books but he wrote both fiction and non-fiction magazine articles... that doesn't tell us much. The Cooper book is largely fiction and researched with some errors.. but IMO he did not make up the contact from a person claiming to be Cooper.. The story Gunther told was via "Clara" who probably made up most of it and his own fiction. Because the book contains fiction it is natural to assume it is all fiction.. So, I am looking at the arguments... Gunther named another person that "Cooper" contacted. Not something a hoaxer would do. Cooper ended contact abruptly for some reason. Resumed 10 years later by "Clara".. If Cooper lost the money, he would have a motive to sell his story. If he didn't lose the money then unlikely. Cooper demanded the notes and matches back not due to fingerprints,, due to writing, the matchbook had writing on it. Cooper was not concerned with prints, he left the cig butts and offered money with his prints, handled a cup, left the tie, touched lots of places.. Cooper was not concerned about prints. He wanted the stuff with writing back at a time when he believed he was going to be successful. Later, if he lost the money and is back East he thinks he can sell his story.. "Clara" never asked for money but wanted to promote the narrative that Cooper was a good guy and had died.. this is inconsistent with a hoax. Clara's narrative is consistent with two Cooper letters. (They were identically written and heavily redacted). It sounds like an associate wanted to publicize Cooper's death to end any search for him... probably false. Cooper was described a middle aged loner... Gunther's audience. There are a couple other things I have to hold back... So, I am interested in the arguments for a hoax,,, more than an opinion.

Why.

No way.. Why contact the FBI if it was his hoax.. makes no sense. There is no benefit and potentially serious charges. Too much personal risk. When the FBI brushed him off he wrote the book.. He was contacted by somebody... Granted the book is mostly fiction, embellishments and research (some wrong)...

I know,, it contains fiction.. that isn't in dispute. He used fabrications and research to write the book. Do you think Gunther fabricated the contact from a person claiming to be Cooper?? Others have also said they don't believe/buy the Gunther book, but that is too simplistic. Gunther contacted the FBI and gave them info,, if that were false that would elevate a benign hoax to a serious crime.. That is a big risk and career ending move. I can't see him doing that for a mediocre book. The real question,, IMO.. was he contacted by the real Cooper or a hoaxer. Gunther even claims he doesn't know for sure.