rehmwa

So, what, exactly, happened in the 2000 election that Florida trying to prevent from happening again? If you're not suggesting Bush's win in Florida was due to voter fraud, then what are you suggesting? That by disenfranchising thousands of voters, a close election is less likely? disenfranchising military absentee votes did seem to keep it pretty close - so it is a proven technique ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Fair enough, that the kind of stuff I knee jerk at too - then it's just a matter of who started it and that pissing contest goes nowhere. short answer - I don't see a way to actively fix this without trying to change how people think - and that's not an answer. People's thinking will change over time on its own though. Blues ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

so we're pretty much screwed no matter who is elected, and if it wasn't these two asswipes, it would likely be two other asswipes of equal standards. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

You're a pain Kelpy, it was just a single to balance the other single exactly to make the point that individual anecdotes don't matter. Not intended to demo a gross trend, just the opposite, to highlight that as individuals we all have our own choices and paths to take. As well as how we choose to react to events. There were a few here that were a pleasure to discuss this with. Yours aren't. You don't respond to the content, you just want to construct false 'gotchas', your style isn't discuss but attack. I'm not a fan of that style here in SC, I think it brings down the level of discourse a lot. And it's not fun or informative, just antagonistic. I've made my points, done here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I think it's neat that all these abbreviations are used enough that I can now look them up. It was pretty rough the first few years for someone a UN-web savvy as me. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

yeah, I guess so. I just find both to be very annoying. I have warmed a bit to AADs, and I don't get too annoyed at people that have never done CrW or jumped F111 at some point. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

polling data is still data (though one I'm never thrilled to analyze - I prefer direct data collection, but no such things when opinions are involved) actually, it's only summary statistics of a poll data set - one that doesn't include error bands One nice thing - if that's the actual wording of the poll, then it's pretty objectively written. Nice to see for once. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I don't care. I stand by my position that the Coach rating and the PRO ratings are useless revenue pumps from the USPA. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Thanks, once the dust settles, (and the strawmen usual suspects get tired of trolling) we usually do find that most here on this forum have the same views. You sound like a great mom and neat person. {{"Women in Science", meet 'women' scientists'}} I resonate with all of your post, but, like in skydiving, I don't have the perspective to understand why we think girls need 'female' role models, rather than just 'successful' role models. It seems to be a conscious effort to confuse what's important. It seems we are telling girls they are less capable, and then parade successful women in front of them to counter the first statement. Isn't it easier to just not do the harm in the first place and let our sons and daughters know that they can choose ANYONE for inspiration? I have skydiving role models - I don't really think about it, but some are women and some are men - my criteria isn't the gender, it's their attitudes and abilities. Ditto for professional life. Ditto for personal. I don't see why we don't just be like that from the start and teach it that way....But, I'm just a guy. I've never seen boys tease or completely ostrasize each other for little crappy cosmetic stuff like "he doesn't wear glasses like we do". But I've seen girls do that kind of thing a lot. Maybe the differences indicated by that does mean certain consideration for cosmetic differences are necessary during the early formative years. Something for me to consider. Something in me wants to resist that - it seems insulting to females to even acknowledge that. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Sandi - I need you to read this as someone speaking softly. ok? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way, despite benefiting from society disproportionately. the benefit from society is they get to use the roads and sewers - just like everyone else- any success beyond that you claim that's also because of society and not their efforts - others claim that the extra benefit they earned....that's the real question, isn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I'll take that whole post as "moderation, don't overdo it in any direction, basic respect rules apply" I agree with that, of course - it's pretty much what I've been saying but the process and the respect has to be king - not some arbitrary position on results based intervention ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

So do I, but my worry is that, if there is further intervention to accelerate the change, that those efforts will actually derail the progress we made. Social engineering is full of well meaning efforts that actually make the situation worse. I think that, in reality, more of them fail in this manner than succeed. Kids rebel - IMHO, but a pretty strong IMHO. Try to force the issue, and we'll get a reversion to the older roles because that'll be the next cool rebellious thing. Social norms are not something that just switch over. They have so much momentum, and it's like moving a giant boat with a little tug. It takes generations, not a legislative action. Again, expose them to everything and let them choose their own paths. They'll do just fine. Heck, they'll do just fine even if they pick paths we don't personally agree with. It's not hard. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

You have a great, single, example. But what is your action? Do you own it and talk to your child about it? or do you want the government to change how the other parents do their parenting? ...or both? I want to know what actions are available, not just a generic gripe. My example is similar, except my girl does the Advanced placement and science classes and she just laughs if kids would say thing like "science is for boys". How can you say which kid is more representative of kids in society today? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

and the city tried to ban schools? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I don't see anybody arguing they have no obligation to support it. I see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way. That's the rub. From the other side - I see this argument come up when someone is arguing for welfare support, or FREE medical care, or free IDs, or a new stadium paid by taxes, or light rail, or etc etc etc. they then generalize that as a generic social program, then they equate all social programs to things like infrastructure and utilities, etc. Then, they accuse people that disagree with (example) funding for the perverted arts, as those that are also against roads........ so you see, we're both upset at the strawmen that both sides put up. you know this quote is disengenuous - the position is NOT that they want to pay for 0% of it. the position is they object to having to pay for 99% of it while so many pay for none of it. I doubt that any Libertarian out there is truly a full anarchist, but it's easier to argue that strawman rather than understand what they really want and discover we're all a lot closer in philosophy than we're not (with a few dorky exceptions) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

no, that sarcasm was amazingly well done. I was smiling the whole read ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

sigh however, I get your concern, though ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

was it partial differential equations and how they are applied to shaving, crotch scratching and weight lifting? or was it partial differential equations and the related aspects of menstruation and hair styling with emphasis on child birth and makeup application? I just want to get a feel for your high school's inherent biases...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

What's being done wrong right now? Do you have examples from today? or just recollections? Or do you mean things like - "A lumberjack cuts down 10% of a rainforest every year, the rainforest can rejuvenate 8% from the remaining each year. How do you think the birds in the forest FEEL about this? Please show your work, and bring in a monetary contribution from your parents for the NEA" I'm all for revamping how to present math from that baseline. (this is just mockery - but seriously, can you tell me how it's being done wrong? or are you just distressed that the results aren't making you feel good? I've sat today's math classes and don't see the gender bias, but perhaps I'm just a blind neanderthal). I don't see how calculating a force vectors in physics is gender biased. I don't see how solving a limit in math is gender biased. seriously I mean - in the early 80's, we made bookends in metal shop. That was in the early 80's? Are you telling me that bookends aren't gender neutral? In home ec, we cooked a dinner and sewed a shirt? are you telling me that eating and wearing shirts is gender biased? In both those classes, we were assigned to pick a personal project to execute - are you telling me that choosing your own project isn't gender neutral? What exactly would you change after your 'reevaluation'? And that was in the 80's another thing - how do you redo the curriculum to 'encourage' girls to do this without applying your own perspective to what you THINK a GIRL likes? Isn't that application of a personal gender bias right there? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

that's much more coherently put than my ramblings ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

His point is above in a post about school electives (as a way to insert that programs like Title 19 were successful, but he still noted it). Your personal assumption that 50/50 = parity aside, and whether we agree that we've reached it or at least or on the way there without MORE intervention (my point) Right now, do you contend that we need government to intervene with parents in how they nurture, then? What is the proposed fix? It's still a statement of a perceived problem only, with no fix proposed that doesn't require a really intrusive society. How intrusive do you want society to get? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

that's not so goofy as it seem - although the country is pretty much 50/50, and choosing a VP like Condi would, in reality do a LOT of good in the election, we still see that time and time again, that candidate selection by either party continues to be defined by their far off 5% splinter I am continually amazed how BOTH parties will sometimes find a mediocre Presidential candidate, but still one with a pretty good chance, then they assign a nutbag for VP and completely ruin their chances. I suspect the Pres candidate has to be a bit centrist to even get in, then they pick a winger for VP to placate the party leadership (normally run by nutbags themselves). They really need to pick a VP that would appeal 'beyond' the centrists just a bit to scavenge votes from those leaning slightly to the other team. I mean, seriously, Biden is an idiot, Palin was a crappy strategic move. The wingers are so fanatic, they vote against the other party. they'd vote for a dirty old shoe as long the R or D is next to their name. there is no need to pander to them in any way, especially when you get more bang for the buck with a centrist VP partner. I'm convinced that Romney will pick someone like a Santorum (religious nut) instead of someone like Rubio or Rice (that would help him win) or someone fairly neutral like Pawlenty (that would at least not hurt him). Thus turning the election into a battle between two really crappy choices.....again ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

So what should Sam Walton do here? Should he have paid taxes for roads just like everybody else - I assume he did as he went along? Are you saying they shut the roads down for everybody but Sam? I don't really get this line of argument that equates something like welfare with things like public roads and utilities - it seems to be a moot point at best. Petty at worst. But not really productive. At best, all you guys are saying is - "society exists". OK, I suspect everybody acknowledges that. I do find that acknowledging a handful of individuals that have success to be much more motivating than giving everyone a medal, or calling anyone that wakes up in the morning a "hero".......YMMV Just how does having public roads (or purchasing and using in the open market anothers' invention or business like paper and printing) to help enable a guy like Sam to succeed equate to giving welfare and other entitlements to those who didn't invent or create a product. I want to understand the mindset that considers them equivalent. Why is exploiting the public market successfully than others so much less praiseworthy than those that exploit the government welfare system successfully than others? Who gave back more to the rest of us once it was alll done? Or is it really just that we can control the second group more than the first? Or is it just ego? as eloquent (or not, in my case) as we can be here - it still just boils down to the whole "equal results vs equal opportunities" debate. And that's been beat to death. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

OK, apparently, I have to be grim and upset to get my point across (which will be ignored by some regardless of tone) rather than enjoy the usual banter and friendly discourse which I do get from you and few others. Yours is a discussion defending that gender stereotypes still exist but not the extent or the relative improvement we've experienced. And not whether today's level of bias is acceptable or not, not a discussion about whether they have as much power as they used to, or if they are significant enough to require a dramatic reaction or interference by government - and social interference is exactly what's being pushed. I contend that people in their 50's and older are acting as if the kids are still living in the culture the 50 year olds remember, not today's. Contrast Shotgun's (or mine) experience 15-30 years ago where all the classes were elective vs Billvon's experience where the boys had one set of classes and the girls had another (I took a ton of shop and actually a couple home Ec classes). But, still, those are historical anecdotes, not today's reality. Bill made the point that this is corrected in today's school - the implication that those programs did serve their purpose. So what are they NOW trying to fix today with programs designed for 3 decades ago? Is it helping, or is it now stifling the kids? Does it celebrate the natural inclinations, or is it trying to force a homogeneity that's legislated for PC guilt's sake? I think it still comes down to the same thing. Do you think it's a huge enough of a problem, for TODAY's kids, to force the kids or the teachers or the parents to behave in a proscribed manner, even against their inclinations? Or do we trust the parents and kids to do their job - even when we don't always agree? Because that's exactly the end game here, do we force behavior we choose on others? - for the children. this is also a bit silly - sit a few classes. I have. The disparity between INDIVIDUAL children gets from a lesson is a lot more varied (diverse, if you will), than the generalized gender stereotype. (i.e., the total population sigma is more significant than the subgroup mean difference.) I see a lot more difference between the groups (smart kids vs lazy kids) than I do between (males vs females). Seems we should focus on teaching all the kids. Not obsessing over subgroup issues from the 1900's ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants