rehmwa

I get your first part of the post. But this last bit is wrong. I said find every "individual" responsible (that means that specifically did something wrong). Who said replace all the students???? why do you even make this kind of post, Bill? Doesn't it get old? Anyway, I don't think it's silly to hold individuals accountable for their individual actions. Do you actually mean to imply that mob mentality, or the "everybody else was doing it" type of defense is valid? Or just in the context of the false interpretation (replace all the students) that you threw out there? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

It would not sanction a campus... It would sanction the program. so the argument still applies - Who is this guy named "program"? is it a last name? a first name? I find it lazy - get those individuals responsible and deal with them. Anyone else not responsible should not have to be caught up in any action. (seriously, WHO does that mean when we say "Program"? - will it affect players and staff that were hired long after the events? etc etc etc) If you can't find the individuals responsible and put a big star right on their foreheads and hold them, and only them, accountable, then likely you don't know, and are just doing a big PR move. "Precedent" or not, what about right vs wrong. Take your band example.....so let's make up an example. Take a band of 4 guys. 3 attack and kill someone. The drummer was out of town. If the case involved anything other than 3 guys going to jail and a drummer just being left alone, then that's wrong. I could not give a crap whether or not they are ever allowed to play music with someone else or not - that's not the place for a court and kind of a waste of time and a really stupid message. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

makes no sense - the "individuals" responsible should be assessed and actions taken to ensure it never happens again. How does sanctioning a campus make any logical sense? If an entire staff structure broke down, then replace EVERYBODY and make sure each individual goes to the appropriate trial one by one. Or it's just lazy and guilty individuals get to hide in the crowd. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

IMHO - "vengeance" is an act, not a condition. It's pretty much taking a direct (re)action on someone in a personal manner when it, by that time, should be done by society. Whether they are feeling pain or not, have anger, rage or feel nothing at all, doesn't matter. Only that they acted when it's not their place to act but that's just my thought - YMMV ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

and should be the common sense answer here ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

even a blind squirrel like me finds a nut once in a while (you're not a hypocrit, just human. I just find those positions to be antithetical, I don't see how they are hypocritical, just not self consistent. We can have inconsistent views on items that aren't EXACTLY parallel and not consider it hypocritical, just an observation. Hypocritical implies a character defect, I don't think this falls that far over that line. SC dialogue has people throwing out that accusation way too often, and way too unfairly.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I find that to be a crappy reason to support it. The family is already victimized, you can't undo that. The only reason is to keep it from happening again to someone else. Justice isn't about making people "feel better". It's about protecting the innocent. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I think you (and select others) deliberately misuse the word vengeance for reactive impact. It adds nothing to the debate to do so. Nor does it acknowledge the legitimate goal of what I've said or Davjohns, etc. The justice system, dispassionately executing the results of a verdict, is a long way from your intent to characterize the action as equivalent to an angry and unreasoning individual slaughtering someone in a blind, out of control rage in reaction to some wrong that was committed. Strangely enough, I'm amazed at those that are against the DP, yet loudly claim that "if someone did something like (example) to my (wife/daughter), I'd kill them right there" - or even support or relate to someone that did....(like it's acceptable to kill in a blind rage, but not ok to do it after weighing the evidence in a court of law) If the problem is in the (mis) application/implementation, that's a good (excellent) discussion point, much better than dropping it down to low brow vagueness. Take a lesson from normiss. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

and that's reasonable because, perhaps, the ability to be objective about may be extremely rare, and, if so, then the potential for misuse is out there. I try to still trust that enough people 'get it' that it can be a tool of justice. But I think it should be very rare, and very reluctant to apply. but I get your position and respect it, you state it well, without all the stupid hyperbole we see so often ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I should mitigate my statement that it's a stupid argument. To me, just Me, that would be a stupid argument. I need to recognize, that others just may not be capable of making that type of decision without a huge emotional stresser. Therefore, from their perspective, they may not be able to comprehend the pure justice viewpoint and only comprehend the notion of vengeance and that would drive an inability to understand what you and I are talking about. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

taught a class this weekend, on a break, I tried this just for myself. I, (IMHO), just don't see any benefit here. The disorientation was just too big of a distraction vs the, admittedly more realistic, amount of effort to hold a clean arch. In other words, even as an experienced jumper, it took a LOT MORE concentration to even recognize that this was an easier arch in terms of effort - the mental distraction totally overwhelmed. But, you don't know until you test it. So I gave it a fair shot. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Just taught a retrain yesterday. It's really not a big deal, the jumper did fine and we found out what he remembered and what he forgot. It definitely was needed, but it was low key and didn't take all day at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Hmmm? Not sure I'd spend the time/altitude messing around. Gotta trust your reserve. (I know you're asking this for the newbies, Mike. I'll play ) Hmmmmm? are you saying you don't look at your altitude at all? - If you are going to make a gross generalization, then I am required to respond by asking if you cut away on a simple brake getting knocked loose on opening at 4000 feet? (of course not, if you recognize that's what it is above your hard deck, you'd just release the other one) IMO - If you have time and altitude to 'spend', go ahead and use it if so inclined - just pay attention and let a control check press the final decision once you get all trimmed up. If you don't that much time, then the quicker answer is the chop, of course. I trust my reserve, but I trust that already open, perfectly good canopy slightly more. (with my canopy, it's typically pretty quick from seeing the problem to determining if it's worth spending any time, they spin up quick when it's bad, and fly pretty nice when it's workable) stick with your decision hard deck at all times now, are you still skeptical now that I've had to provide the full picture for the kids? agree on the comment about your experience and planning apply greatly here - my numbers are at the left, I've had a high speed and a low speed malfunction, a crw wrap/cutaway, and an airplane crash for further pedigree - not great, but a sampling. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

If found guilty, the laws of the state will apply for this type of crime. If death penalty is determined (if even allowed by the laws of the people of Colorado), it should be done quickly and with zero passion in a clinical way. Death penalty is not vengeance or anger (that's a stupid position to take and I don't understand why people throw that out there). Simply an action to protect the rest of us from a repeat performance from a damaged and homicidal individual. Vengeance killing is against the law and is something done by individuals that don't understand true right from wrong. If one of the victim's family members walked up to this guy and shot him - that would be vengeance, and that person would have to go to trial for murder and absolutely should go to jail. Vengeance is selfish and shows a total disregard for the legal process. DP is part of the legal process.... If a court cannot apply the death penalty in a calm and clinical fashion, void of the bias of anger, vengeance, or any other passion than the duty to protect society, then that judge should recuse. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

If anyone here has any hungry horses, they should bring them in for all the strawmen being toss about left and right in here. edit: Bonus, in addition to the straw, there's plenty of shit shoveling to keep the place tidy for the steeds as well ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

going to run the draw and see how you stack up to last year's talent? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

The dark and smoke were different and background noise make it substantially different, but that's not to say a CCW holder can't stop any well armed person sporting 3 gallons of crazy in a 2 gallon bucket. Remember the New Life Church shooting? Come to think of it, that was also in Colorado, as was Columbine...maybe the water that Coor's like to brag about has a dark side. Blues, Dave I gotta say the thought of something "special" about Colorado has also crossed my mind. Hypoxia? It's a very liberal state - I'm just sayin' ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

of course, in that vein, people should also be a bit more realistic when thinking about how DISarming everyone would somehow fix this sort of event Who in this thread has suggested disarming everyone? No-one, its the same lame old strawman that they always trot out. look at the bolded above to see the context, John ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Frankly, I just very grateful that after 4-5 hours, no one has mentioned FDR - his policies would pretty much nail the coffin lid on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I think not drawing if you don't intend to shoot is smarter. Two rows over, some guy just like you sees you armed, and thinks you're the shooter, and decides that HE will take down the shooter. Or, Heck, you come out the exit and the cop sees you, then what? For that matter, people might be low and crawling, do you want to be on your hands and knees working to the exit with one more thing in your hand? Work your way to the exit, and if you find the shooter on the way, then consider (draw and shoot) the shot vs continuing to get out (leave it holstered). YMMV - I suspect each state's concealed carry course, they would actually have a suggested course of action for this type of scenario ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Mr. HICKS!! Let's just turn the volume up just a tish on that ol' radio ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment) bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

about as many people that suggested arming everyone edit: i thought it was a good application of one of Billvon's tactics that I appreciate ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I think that if anyone was carrying in the theator, then: 1 - He or she would have to notice that they are in a dark area absolutely FULL of bystanders. 2 - Perhaps the carry holder would also realize that the theator walls are thin and the next room would also be full of innocents as well 3 - Lots of nuts at these showings are dressed up, like the shooter. Dark theator combined with nutbag might make it hard to find the shooter anyway. 4 - Combine a difficult target to find, along with my first couple of points that even to shoot at the guy in the theator creates a huge risk to the others. 5 - for that matter - yes, a .45 has a lot of power and even if you hit the shooter, you still might hit another person. Self defense should tactical, not spray and pray conclusion: I'm very pleased with any hypothetical carry holder that had the reasoning to withhold any shot except for the ideal shot - which likely didn't present itself. It's a tribute to the training and argument that responsible CCW holders deserve their permits. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

of course, in that vein, people should also be a bit more realistic when thinking about how DISarming everyone would somehow fix this sort of event ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants