ChrisD

Ultimately there is no real way to prepare people for it. Even deliberate cutaways have a third canopy as backup. The real thing is do or die or do and still die. Perhaps more people should become more familiar with the reserve packing system and learn all the measures in place to prevent the reserve malfunctioning. Maybe even watch their reserve being repacked. this ?? c Why don't you just start passing out free AAD's to everyone, at least two for each rig, and then do away with the AFF course?? But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Dude, it's not a personal attack. I'm not saying everyone isn't doing everything they can to improve gear or do the best they can. Gear has undergone a revolution in design over the years. Every stitch and improvement has been hard won and usually at a steep price. What the comment was directed at is the fact that there really isn't a study or science to this design. But people think that there is! Many individuals that I have spoken with think that gear, including AAD's underwent some kind of expensive R & D at a level that just didn't take place. Yes we have spent time and money but not at the level that the public stereotype believes took place. I have frequently promoted that the manufacturers remain in the central position to receive any and all information regarding rigging and any other issue to the detriment of many riggers that say all or any repair or modification can be done in the field. The manufacturers need this information to remain in a proactive position to improve their gear. This is not the same as designing a rig from the ground up. The evolution is just that, an evolution, not a study. If we in fact had the funds to study at the level that people think we do....this would truly be revolutionary and a number of questions would in fact have a basis for change. And the corrallary would also be that a number of common practices would be changed as well.... Your reaction, and that is what it is, a reaction, is part of the problem. You could have said so many other things that had some kind of constructive intent or educational value. But alas so much of this post is reaction as compared with thinking with at least 50 differing things going on,...no wonder there is soo much miscommunication.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I see no evidence that any of the bodies you mentioned up at the top are doing a thing to study the issue. If they are then they are being awfully quiet about it. I'll rephrase this: Not a fuckin one of them is studying anything, not their job man.... Just manufacturers trying to make a buck. Allthoogh some of those manufacturers have your best interests at heart. And get off the USPA, while I'm at it,... The USPA is a member organization, that s us....it's some of your fellow skydivers that your speaking about, with differing viewpoints.... C Get the skydiving public to reach a consensus and stuff will change. Raise everyones' education level and knowledge! Look at what Ron is trying to say in a different way.... Those mouth-piece's have a lot of clout because so many just accept their collective viewpoint. Some of them think about the issues, and many just go with the reccomoondation. And you would be correct to think that they don't think...is this a bad thing? The bottom line is: Is this an argument that at its heart is the battle of the individual expressing their desire for personal choice or V the attempts to save individuals in large numbers? I'll tell ya one thing you all better start reaching some kind of consensus cause this infighting is not doing anyone any good!

While on some levels I would agree with you, but. How you support your community does in fact matter. Stereotypes kill, and your perpetuating a stereotype with your comments. If everyone was in fact giving each other gear checks the community in itself may in fact promote safety as compared with blaming individuals for their own predicaments. The Hawaii tail strike illustrates this quite well! If the other jumpers on board had given the individual a little coaching and support about the differences and configuration of differing aircraft, had taken a moment so to speak, that individual would still be here! The next generation in safety is changing the system so that everyone can understand how our environment has an effect upon us all. Telling someone to shut the fuck up isn't going to help. In fact I could continue this negativity and perpetuate the stereotype by saying something like "you are free to read or not read whatever you like." But that isn't going to help anyone. I can understand you frustration. Do you understand theirs? It's not about you, it's about them, and understanding them takes a lot of work and an open and accepting mind. C

Agreed. Ya think they could police themselves? Perhaps there is some kind of balance? C Keep up the good fight, and thanks!!!! But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

The other tread has turned into a mess, I can see how the mods want to police such activity On the other hand before it turned into a popularity contest full of "individual" stories... It can and does illustrate how strongly we want to find and blame the individual... One person posted this: "One might feel a little pressure to avoid chopping a friend's canopy until one has done everything possible to avoid that. " And the well meaning response was a personal attack, that should be removed,... On the other hand it does illustrate the system view of how we place and attribute blame upon others... The response: "....but I have to say this one appears to be an attempt at sarcasm that is a complete FAIL..." This is how the system fails us all. No one is clairevouant enough to know what another is thinking. And suggestions as to the mindset of an individual at the time of any incident is fair game and in fact promotes discussion. The response only promotes STFU. This does nothing. It does illustrate social pressure to conform and toe the line. This is a huge factor, social pressure, and is in fact killing us because it does nothing to increase our skill, which is the goal. Words such as behaviors like: Hardwired, or muscle memory, or describing anothers reactions... are perpetuating a stereotype. Again all factors belonging to the individual. There is no such thing as muscle memory, and I feel sorry for anyone that honestly believes that the AFF instruction process instills some kind of permanent change. This type of delusional thinking is in fact perpetuating the stereotype and is the reason we are all in this situation in the first place. If you don't practice your skills, you loose them. It's this simple. And practicing EP's once, or learning them once and then your all set, is the stereotype that many of you want to perpetuate! "In other words, the decedents had their EP decision making process pretty hardwired from their other activities, regardless of what their "AFF" instructors did or did not tell them" This simply isn't true. They locked up, we all can, their experience, their abilities, knowledge, experience, all of these other individual factors... don't mean shit. C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Part of this in a sense is that "expecting failure" will create a different mindset than just turning a blind eye! This realization will change how we think about some of the things we do and this will bring about the necessary change in education and practice. The focus is upon the system rather than the individual that has the unfortunate mal. Another way to look at this is too compare the amount of time we actually spend practicing stuff that can help us in this situation. Many, (most) all of us spend a few moments in a hanging harness (in fact my estimates, based upon others comments, is that only 40 percent of skydivers participate in safety day.) Anyways we spend less than one percent of our skydiving time practicing our EP's. Touching your handles, although great as an attempt, doesn't compare if we were to start practicing hanging harness training say at least once a month and add the spin or other distractors to the training.... many schools don't even use a hanging harness, they just put on a container and then just touch themselves... This is an example of a system failure, a systemic issue that we can do better with. The point is there are things we can do to mitigate this type of incident that takes more than a few of us each year. If the global mind set was one that acknowledged our inability to cope with this type of problem as compared with making comments about this or that person, yes then "accepting failure" will be a good thing. C Don't confuse this with fighting to the last moment, and also considering how our brain works don't have this conversation just before your jump. We really do a great disservice to all jumpers considering the amount of time spent practicing our EP's as compared with other activities... And there are reasons for this! Most of us don't want to confront our mortality as compared with having fun. So our brains stop thinking, literally.... As Andre points out (Thanks Andre

I thought about this all week, I've been traveling again,... Yes there is no good reason to not use a washer, the size "0" isn't small enough, and the potential considering the large numbers of individuals that don't understand their gear is huge. I have often spoken about system factors and the next breakthrough in safety will be recognizing and accepting the system point of view. Part of this is the effects of peer pressure! We are social beings and what we see and how others around us act is a huge factor in promoting safety and also the negative side of things in perpetuating stereotypes that do nothing for us... So I have succumbed to peer pressure, thank you and have reinstalled the washer and also using just an overhand knot. I think the figure 8 knots and the double triple knots don't load up enough and can back off over time. Peer pressure is a good thing. I'm surprised no one mentioned the question: "What do you gain by not using a knot?" This is the real question... Thanks again for the humble pie and your concern for everyone, this is how it's supposed to work. I can only wonder if that recent tail strike could have been prevented by a little more peer pressure? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Ditto your English, your fine... No No, and NO! If you have to ask then it's no, I'm very sorry to say this but the inner ear takes considerable time to heal.... In time and maintain a close relationship with your ear doctor / surgeon, you can in fact be tested for this performance. Mass Eye and Ear has, as a number of other facilities in the USA, equipment that can test and manipulate the ambient air in case your going in an aircraft or other places where you can suffer air pressure changes. If you do a search here you can also see other similar posts where the advice given has been to take an aircraft ride where you can control the altitude, if you are determined to do this.... But you need to be aware that the inner ear has parts that don't register pain as well as parts that can make you unconscious, I don't know what type of ear work you had done...and this is the issue as I see it! You can risk undoing what has already been done! C Good luck! If your determined the membrane can be shunted but find your surgeon and ask! More than a few flights have diverted at considerable cost due to the occasional passenger that has ignored their doctors advice I don't understand how any MD would say that flying is safe in your condition. Again ...NO But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Why even take the time to write anything at all? Perhaps we should just leave everything to the manufacturer's? You have a very valid point, perhaps we should be grateful and leave things alone? I have often stated that by embracing the risks and acknowledging that a few are going to get wacked every year regardless of what we do,...well that's the way it is. But on the other hand this really did matter to a few.... I am proposing that once again by accepting the view that individuals, everyone, faces the possibility of not being able to be altitude aware. It just isn't physically possible. And other individuals keep coming back with the same shit since the 70s' and that is that this issue, and a few more are qualities of the individual...how experienced they are, how recent that experience is, the type of malfunction, or this person was known for this or that, etc, etc,... Get this point thru your head and that is any ones brain can and will lock up, you will be unable to perform as you think you can! You will not be altitude aware when you need to be. Thinking like this, everyone, will bring you to where you need to be as compared with holding the delusional attitude that it won't happen to me. Too many people hold this attitude that they are invincible for a number of reasons. If you adopt the attitude that humans have limitations, then the training will change in response to this. I can not stress this enough, if your reading this then you are a physical human with limitations. Everyone is susceptible to not performing when you have to....and yes this is a scary thought for most to acknowledge. Which is why we have so many people running around thinking they are safe because of this or that... We can either work towards one hundred percent or we can all cop out and just cut our losses? This issue and how we approach it has remained relatively constant, the same arguments, the same response, the same teaching, the same arguments,...and the same results, for the last forty years. It's time for a new approach that doesn't include blaming the victim as the root cause. Otherwise you are absolutely correct in that just accept how good things are and leave it at that. C And ya if this, the way we need to teach needs to change, or the present methods can benefit from being modified, so what? You don't have the time?

I wanted to create a place where we can, if anyone is this motivated, to speculate on this type of an incident. This is a tough one because of my concern for sensitivity to those loved ones living, and the large number of individuals that know any skydiver who has suffered this kind of loss. We had some of our posts deleted because we were making wild speculations in the other section. I think there is some learning to be had, considering the recency of this incident as this type of incident is on every ones mind. And yes this is insensitive to take advantage of another's tragedy to promote learning. As well as these speculative thoughts and types of incidents have been discussed many times in other past threads. We could just leave it alone in a sense by saying "Do a search for past threads," because this has been discussed before or perhaps for some there is great value in letting others speak so that they can work these issues out. Issues raised in this are complex and intertwined. Training, recencey of EP practice, the persons abilities, RSL / MARD use, and a couple of other issues. My point is the systemic issue and personal responsibility. Many of you just want to go to bed at night thinking that the individual did this or that OR didn't do this or that? But what if our system of education, retraining and how we view how we think about something are larger causal factors than the abilities of the individual? We continue to preach about altitude awareness. Just what is altitude awareness and how do we teach it? I have seen way too many say, and well meaning individuals, "you need to be altitude aware." Please give me something to do that I can practice "altitude awareness." Because just making that statement doesn't cut it! We do the same thing when we as a group say something like: "Just Relax." Just saying that statement is a waste of breath, does nothing for someone who is tense or uncomfortable at the moment and in fact may increase their tension and anxiety! Give me something to do as compared with making that statement which I don't really understand anyways.... Conscious breathing, " take some deep breaths, slowly, now let it out," "let's think about something positive," "What is your favorite dessert?" These are examples of what and how to do something as compared with just making the statement: "Just Relax." And they can be done, as many of you are already aware, in the aircraft. Give me some examples of how to be altitude aware? I want also to point out how our system of training and the larger systemic view hurts us in our efforts to be altitude aware. Line twists.... "If it's a simple twist we can just fix it." "you will loose your main, if you don't ride it down to a safe altitude." etc, .... The above are examples of statements we hear every day from fellow jumpers, media, and or other ways. Their influence upon us is stronger than you think, these are brief examples of system, systemic, factors that influence our behavior without us being aware of it taking place. Never mind the fact that our brains lock up and information required to survive is NOT available! This then in the context of speaking about individuals does nothing to promote widespread safety for everyone else. If we continue to place blame or attribute the root cause as some kind of quality within the individual, our efforts at recognizing the deficiencies in the human condition and the limitations of learning and training,.... we will continue to have these same outcomes. Blaming the victim is going to perpetuate incidents. Now lets look at line twists differently,... You look up and see a line twist.... Cut away NOW!!!! This is going to generate discussion.... Many are going to point out that this way of thinking may in fact cause some incidents, and you would be correct. But on the other hand this will generate what we call a "false positive" (or false negative, depending upon your perspective.) What do I mean by this? If you initiate your EP's before they are really needed, or jump the gun so to speak we are going to start having cutaways that are not necessary. Is this a bad thing? I don't see a lot of incidents that start off with statements saying I jumped to my EP and it wasn't necessary. Our system of training doesn't promote this way of thinking, it promotes thinking about the type of malfunction and then making a decision....this is a systemic issue in the sense that we don't promote or teach instant cutaways... If we did teach this way would our rate of mains floating across the country side increase? Would the low pull no pull rate decrease? Would the incident rate because of premature cutaways have some unintended consequence or actually start causing injuries? We don't know because we don't teach this way. This issue is an example of an system issue. Would this even work? I am asking you to compare the probability and consequences of a no pull to an unnecessary cutaway and how this is related to how we teach skydiving. C Some of you I hope will start to see the way we walk and talk, what we read, our stereotypes and how others have an influence on how we learn and the mydriad of ways some of the things we do have negatively influenced this incident.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

There is a value to speculation. Many of these incidents are so similar in nature, no one really needs the specific facts. I have seen all too often the idea of waiting for the facts, although well intentioned, turn into blaming the victim as the final result anyways.... I realize that I am promoting a bigger picture, the systemic view and many have a problem understanding what I am talking about. But the bottom line is that there are factors which are not only difficult to fully understand, they are that more difficult to explain. I have often also promoted the view that via this dialog and speculation many people are working out their grief and trying to make some sense and bring comprehension to the un comprehensible. Although this important fact is often overlooked, there may be more value to this process, in the long run, than limiting the comments and sensoring some of the BS that ensues in the incidents section. The mods want us to keep to the facts to the specific incident, I don't always agree with this. It takes a certain amount of time to repost in other threads as well as we all loose the benefit of a complete discussion in one central location. We loose information jumping between different categories, train of thoughts get lost... I always take the time to point out my concern about some family member reading some of the wild speculation concerning their loved one, but this happens anyways regardless of the truth or if it's speculation or whatever... Who are we protecting? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

You are absolutely right. I have no right whatsoever to put words into user: "Labrys"'s mouth (aka: Kelly) Using the phrase Tizzy was clearly inappropriate, and for that I do apologize. I saw another human being wanting to help. That's all, as do many here, that just want to help. Please PM me with the name of this rigger so that I can at least be aware of this individual if and when I travel to your area in the future or if this guy moves. I certainly don't want any of this deleted and I do in fact want to be able to help you catch a thief. If there is more that I can do please let me know! C I'm not angry, I have spent a big part of my life being trained to deliver short to the point messages and sometimes this email and forum type stuff, well it's just hard sometimes.... I'm trying to not sound angry, I suppose in time I'll get better at this but for the time being I'm not mad or angry at anyone , except my ex wife.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

We are on the same page dude,...I'm being sachastic again, please I hope your sarchasim is stronger mojo than mine cause your startin to freak me out???? Jesus, someone who takes me seriously? Now that's a scarey thought.... Six flags, any one of em, bring the neighbors kids, and those little brown things in the pool are not tootsie roll piecies.... The list: Oreo's, Twinkies, ice cream, fried for real. any mars candy bar... bannanas, fried ice cream sandwitches... I'm sure I have forgotten the whole list.... And I'm not so sure that eating any one of these just or even once doesn't shorten anyones life! Keep up the great work and I certainly am glad you took the time to explain about those cancer sticks....I've watched way too many die a slow death cause of them! C Ahh yes : John Wayne. Every time I'm in court for just grabbing a girl and kissing her, I raise the John Wayne defense.... doesn't work any more.... So as you can tell, I don't drink anymore. But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

I know we hijacked this a bit, and your absoulutly correct about the real root cause of this fatality being the fact they jumped out of an aircraft... We kind of jumped to some of the issues behind the scenes, that have Ron so fired up, and rightly so.... Maybe some of the BOD are tired, judging by some of the attendance figures and the lack of quorum on various occasions... They are quick to point out the costs of attendance though...

Ok,... You started off saying something was stolen, Is it fuckin stolen or not? Post the dammn numbers so that we can put it on the lookout list... Quite frankly at this point, you can call each manufacturer and parachutest yourself... This does not belong in this section, other than you have gotten Kelly in a tizzy, nicest person here if ya ask me, and wasted some peoples time that actually want to do something to help. Other than that I really want to make some sort of sarchastic comment that is only going to get me in more trouble than I am already.... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

Ken, there is nothing wrong with anyone's efforts to find a better way. There is a problem when more than a few are unaware of some of the newer design features of their rigs. The new Vectors, that are not so new,... have offset grommets, the offset is determined by the length of the closing loop as you know. But my concern is the vast numbers of individuals that own these containers as well as Oddyssey types and leave everything up to their rigger. I see this as a problem. And I completely agree with you when you say: "Please understand that the only reason I am even bothering to reply to this is out of concern that you will convince someone else that they can skip using a washer." I too worry about this. But again this is the gear and rigging forum. And I as well as many others depend upon your wisdom and experience to point this out and or any other issue that may arise. In a sense you are the opposing viewpoint that in fact may save someone's ass someday. Sometimes I get a little carried away and bring up multiple thoughts on the same page. And yes I understand this may be a little confusing, sorry. Perhaps I should keep my gear changing thoughts to myself or perhaps a new posting making it perfectly clear that I'm off on some kind of tangent would be a better course of action to follow. I mention grommets again and again, because of the Reflex fatalities. Did the grommets come that way from the factory or did the user bend them and then they went un-noticed? It is worth pissing people off to mention this again and again, and if it saves someone's ass cause now they know a bent grommet is nothing to be trifiled with,...then so be it. I do believe this is worth doing.... On the other hand I really do like the idea of a larkshead to closing loop design for nothing other than it simplifies manufacturing steps and simplifies design. It's not a problem, just speaking out loud about trying to make things more bullet proof than they currently are. Opp there I go again.... Now to answeeere the OP's original question: Yes. The main closing loop on your New Vector will have to be long enough to allow the "main pin cover" to fully fit into its' corresponding slot, while at the same time still provide enough tension for proper main pin retention. Page 69 of the current Micron V3 manual. I would have posted the page from the pdf but I don't know how to do that... On a personal note Squeek, you may find that at this length the main closing loop tension to be less than some people are used to. In other words when closing your pack job you might find it easy to close. The caution and really big caution is if you are using a main that is smaller than recommended from the manufacturer. Yes I know this was mentioned prior, but I wanted to add what I have experience out in the field so that it might spare you some of the grief that some have already experienced with this fine container. Congrats by the way. If anyone has in fact a current procedure for determining the proper loop length. This would be very nice. Perhaps someone can call UPT and ask??? But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

You asked: Take the 5 bucks and do what those white shirted bible toten crew cut types do when I'm not home. Have a flyer printed up. To be handed out at Dz's everywhere. And on this flyier print some pithy reminder to practice your EP's or some other message, like a PSA, that will help prevent the injury in the first place? C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

This is what I'm referring to in the "Old Post" I take this as that individual isn't using a washer either... I want to thank you for your concern for my safety, what you don't know is that the grommet on my V3 is small. Small grommets are a pain in the ass for the manufacturer to install. In fact installing grommets is a pain for any sized grommet. In fact I have been experimenting with not using a grommet / flap for the base of the main closing loop and have been looking at using a double ended finger trapped and sewn loop. That way all I need would be a sewn loop tape that I can pass the closing loop thru and the closing loop would pass thru its other closed end. But that is just me. If there was away to get rig of grommets alltoghter??? Considering the fact that the main canopy is what determines the tension and its' relationship with a properly sized container. I want to get rid of Cypress washers period and find a better way. If fixed length loops are the way to do this then so be it, but there are consequences... This is akin to the idea of passing the bridal thru itself and the bag so that we can eliminate the rapide link. But then we get into the speed difference of changing a larkshead v metal link issue.... The problem is when other's see something and try to replicate it with out an understanding of the whole picture. Understand that just about any knot can pull thru a grommet if: The knot is too small. (How do you tell what is or isn't too small.) The grommet is too large. Pulling on a loop with too much force. (You have seen the knot used on the "Cypress Washer? Have you ever seen a Cypress washer with cracks in it?) My concern with starting this was to illustrate what I and more than a few others see as a potential problem with rigs that use a fixed length main closing loop and unknowing individuals start changing stuff. Like the size of their main. Or they unknowingly start adjusting their closing loop and they don't really know all of the parameters and issues with their actions. I saw a rig that someone had adjusted their closing loop too small, the top flap now is bowed and the rig has indentations that in the very rare case of a out of position deployment I have a concern that the top flap may hang up. I now see many rigs with bowed top flaps. So to me this is a concern that is wide spread and deserving of some attention. In the other case I saw a packer pack a rig by pulling on the closing loop with the tool, and also by using their feet on the back of the rig. When the rig was tossed to the floor at that moment the loop pulled thru!!! Imagine the look of surprise on everyone's face. Imagine me standing there trying to explain that the loop didn't need to be shortened in the first place, that the manufacturer (sun path products) has a fixed length recommendation. On the other hand everyone also discovered that that RIGGER had neglected to use a washer on that rig. That rig had been in use without a washer for months! No one knew! Because of the decreased tension, at the manufacturers suggested length it worked just fine. (bit of a time bomb in a sense though!!) Until an unknowing packer, who in their opinion, deemed that the loop was too long....talk about irony. There is a balance here, do I keep my mouth shut out of fear that some may start a practice that if they are not aware of all of the consequences, may lead them to do something that may not be safe? Or to I point out a trend that rigs, in large numbers have ridiculously high tensions because it is better to be too tight than too loose? Or is it better that everyone raises their game so to speak, learn something, and set the right tension for your particular rig in the first place? There are a lot of us, (I stand on the shoulders of giants by the way,) that want our gear to be 100 percent bullet proof. This grommet thing has cost lives in the past. This washer thing has cost lives. I am well aware that knots can pull through washers. I am well aware that knots can slip apart. I am advocating the right materials, the right tension, and the right knot in the right place. I spend a lot of time at this stuff.... Now what the masses do with this is what keeps me up at night.... C thanks.... I want to remind you that the OP's question was how far apart should the grommets be.... But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

THIS: This is why it belongs here, what you just said is the most important thing about this forum. I doubt you realize the signifigance of what you just said.

You are absolutely correct, and I couldn't agree more. Life is a balance. And if you munch to much on anything you will tip the scales!

If life is soo short why are you promoting an activity that will shorten it??? I'd rather give up a few cases of "Fat Food" per week, such as your promoting, and live 20 years longer....Lets see at 250 jumps per year, O'h by the way the money I save by not eating yellow shit sticks, I put to jumping and new gear, Anyways at about 250 jumps per year, that's...250 x 20 = 5000... Your family will have to purchase a big boy casket, youll need a crane to lift your blubborous ass and girth into the ground,And guess what??? I'll be jumpin over your grave for the next 20, in the blue skys and sunny days... >>>>Clicky>>>> CLICK HERE >>>>>> What to do with a Twinkie

But in that case, the data should also show them coming to an abrupt stop at 350 AGL; so at least the data would show the error. (One wonders if AirTec will ever release the data from those units.) What is and what isn't recorded is a question that a lot of us have been asking of late. This really deserves its own post. Thanks for the question / comment. It is something that I forgot about...the sudden stop. I was referencing my observations again that many people want to believe in the utter un-failability of these devices. We really do.... Jerry, I love that man,... even points out above, the improbability of two units failing at the same time! But in the real world statistically /probability wize this unfourtunate outcome is actually very probable! It's us humans that attribute reliability to a machine. And it's this same mechanism that's driving this argument that Ron is pointing out. But your point is an excellent one...I too would like to see some plain English explanations of what is recorded and what isn't and as well I would like some reliability numbers on these sensors. I just don't trust the fact that one day we can jump in water and the next day find out that the unit needs to go back to the factory. I also, cause I'm paranoid, don't like the idea that a sensor can supposedly function for 14 years, like it did from day one....And I use one of the blasted things.... All in all this discussion takes away in terms of time, the amount of time we could spend practicing our EP's and not just on Safety day. Do ya see, in a sense what is going on?? We are trading personal responsibility, in the form of practicing and learning and rehersing, for reliance on a device. This isn't an elevator that we trust is going to work each and every time. Although many devices have an excellent safety record. I recall the early Apollo near disaster, caused by one programmers thoughts that two radar systems wouldn't be left on at the same time.... Lots to think about.... Too much stuff is hidden in my opinion before we start mandating rule changes. If these companies want to be more transparent, by releasing their software, I'm sure a few of us would dive into the theory of operation , which is probably why they arnt doin it.... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

From what I understand, it was a perfectly acceptable five act play on a simple stage in the 17th century. Like how many here know what he is speaking about, that is like so "deep" Man. Heavy, but in a good way.... Wow , I'm floored.... Do ya think the "English Bastard" stole the story from the Greeks?

Yes, they have changed considerably.... I'm not sure they can be called food anymore despite the taste you seem to enjoy.... Additionally they busted their bakers union to shreds, put over 5,000 long time employees out of work, their pensions and savings in jepordey, and somehow managed to modernize their new plants, with unskilled labor and automation. They are now more profitable than ever. The banks that are owned by the same individuals that lent them the money that also have a investment in these same new plants,... to do this are very happy. Your overweight children will live less years than you, dibeties is on the rise, and your dentist will thank you... supersize me... Shelf life, palatability, and some fucked up substance called: "oilestra." Although they use a hidden propiteary name to hide the substance that gives the texture and creem that wonderfull flava. Additionally they are spending, close to one quarter of a billion dollars on their long range advertising budjet, just to get the world to think they are safe to eat... You have to be fuckin nuts to eat one of these things.... Although "fried" with a little powdered sugar at Six flags the other day, they were wonderful.... As well as the fried Snickers bars... C But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."