skypuppy

A 1980-circa Swift with a Pursuit main, round unmodified reserve, ROL deployment system and no AAD/RSL is absolutely less safe than a modern rig with an AAD, RSL and appropriately sized canopies. _____________________________________________ I cannot imagine anyone ever having an unmodified round reserve in a swift system -- let's not get carried away with hyperbole! The swifts came out with square reserves. And although modern rigs 'might' be safer than older ones, it's not really through addition of AADs and RSLs.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Balls. The odds would go only very slightly up if at all. I could jump a B 4 with a cheapo and 24 foot reserve with no AAD, alti or RSL tomorrow, and survive. Easily. Just as I did in 1974. Many times. Not the exact same rig of course, and my chances of a landing injury are slightly higher because I'm quite a bit fatter than I used to be, but my 5 hours of PLF training should take care of that. I'd be a lot more concerned about some current hotshot dumping in my face at 4000 feet, or killing me at 50 feet off the deck doing his swoop.[/reply_________________________________________ I could agree with Bill that the odds might go up a bit, but I certainly wouldn't say -way- up, so I agree with you too! If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

And hold on to the tail or he'll slap you silly! If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

2) Interested in AAD induced fatalities or injuries, for example swoopers killed or injured by an reserve deployment (non-injury doesn't count) having the shit scared out of you and an aching wallet don't count as injuries? If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

>This mind-set of hyper-regulation is killing the sport. As the sport continues to grow, that's not a supportable statement. ______________________________________________ Everything I'm told leads me to believe the sport is NOT growing. Certainly cspa membership is down from past decades.... _______________________________________________ >It is perfectly safe to use older gear, jump without an AAD, and/or >only make a few jumps once in a while. It absolutely is not. Anyone of any age with any gear who thinks jumping is "perfectly safe" is deluded. _______________________________________________ We're not talking about perfect in a vacuum here. It is certainly safe enough that a 'lot' of people don't have a problem with doing it.... If you want 'perfectly safe' than you should be staying home.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Without getting into a moral debate, look at how many skydivers seem to be reacting negatively to even the idea of a 10-year-old skydiving. ________________________________________________ Maybe you should change that to 'how many US skydivers seem to be reacting negatively', since, as I said before, minors skydiving seems to be pretty much accepted, at least unofficially, in pretty much the rest of the world outside the US... You have a lot of strong feelings in this considering your experience level.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Maybe he means he believes that way is the best way. His opinion is just as valid as yours, eh? If you are spending all this time and energy trying to convince people to come around to your way of thinking, it's not gonna happen. In this debate, isn't it enough to be happy with what you do as opposed to worrying so much about what others do? _______________________________________________ I don't think Rhys is the one at odds with the rest of the world. Seems underage jumping is no big deal in just about any country other than the US world-wide. It's common in Ontario, Canada and even more so in Quebec -- I've seen all sorts of pictures from Europe, South Africa, Australia, etc. and I know of Chinese and Russian athletes being trained while minors. It's been done in S America. Even some of the very recognized USPA board members have family members that participate(d) regularly in the sport while minors (leading the interesting situations of people serving on the board of uspa while running non-affiliated dz's) And I personally applaud that. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

I've made it crystal clear in this thread that I've been mainly referring not to legalities, but to the developmental maturity (or lack of it) of children, irrespective of legalities. For fuck's sake, improve your reading comprehension beyond that of a tantrum-throwing child. I'm terribly sorry that taking gullible young children out of the skydiving carnival ride mix might cut your income a bit. Tough shit. I'm sure you can always offset the loss by selling nanothermite futures. _______________________________________________ You;ve also said you're lawyer which gives you licence (i guess) to talk about legalities -- but don't give any reason why your assessments of risk or of maturity of children during development should be considered the bottom line in this argument. Maybe this is just between the US and the rest of the world.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

To everyone: All those guys complaining about Bill taking his kid...so what? I somehow don't think Bill would have been suing his own company had something gone wrong. _______________________________________________ You miss the point -- in certain cases if Bill and the passenger were incapacitated due to injuries sustained, the State could assume guardianship and sue the company and/or estate for damages in order to pay for supported living for the passenger for the rest of her life.... A dz was sued by a provincial gov't in Canada for compensation for treatment after an employee was injured. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Would you have allowed the young 10-year old Soheil to AFF train and eventually permit him to solo jump as a 10-year old? I could be wrong, but I would guess that even you would say that he is too young to solo (if a rig and parachute could even be made...but dammit it would be cute as hell). And if he is too young to solo, should he really be tandem jumping? (Though this does not apply in AU) Point being, as far as waivers are concerned, and therefore skydiving, a parent cannot be the arbiter of his/her own child's maturity level. The U.S. government has dictated the age of maturity in most cases to be 18. Certainly there are mature children who could likely "handle" skydiving. Exceptions to the rules exist, and they may be disadvantaged and have to wait as a result, but to allow any other system would be to invite free form chaos. I have yet to hear of any credible argument as to why a healthy 15 or 16 year old cannot wait a couple of years to skydive. ________________________________________________ I have been told by some that regularly take underage passengers that while they will take young children on 'occasional' tandem jumps, they will not allow them to begin solo progression until the age of 14. This is in order to allow their inner ear to fully develop... As to why they should not wait a couple of years, I again point to the Canadian National 4-way team. This team has performed well at many world meets despite the youth of its latest members (first Vincent a few years ago, then Benoit). Why hold back an athlete capable of medalling at a world meet for a couple of years, and risk losing the chance to compete? (the team consists of 3 sons and their father) There are several other instances of extremely young competitors at national and world meets doing very well and having an awful lot of jumps for their age (another example would be Scott Borghese, perennial Cdn style/accuracy champion and team member, who beat me in an accuracy comp when he was 16). If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

___________________________________________ As a moderator, YOU seem to have made the thread about him. I didn't get past post #10. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Disagree. I think 18 is a very reasonable age boundary after which most individuals would have the mental maturity to appropriately assess the risks versus the rewards of skydiving. Maybe "some" , depends on how gaurded a life they lead...Mine, (my best example) has been an active athlete his whole life, he competed at the world level this year in freeridng , at age 16 , with average age of his competitors being 25 ..."He" is more than capable of skydiving safely.... to hold back all, because of a few...sucks......JMO More like hold back a few because most aren't capable. There are a lot of 18 yr olds who aren't mature enough. I'd say your son is a pretty rare example. How many kids are skilled enough to compete against adult experts? In this case? One! http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v400/onekick/Beach/?action=view¤t=redbull.jpg But , James Lane comes to mind, he was competing at the world level by age 18.. which brings us back to the problem is waivers are not held to the fact of what they should be, once that waiver is signed, the signing adult is responciable, not other parties! I'm not blaming the tandem manufactuors , I am blaming the court systems...which I don;t think will change soon! _______________________________________________ 3 members of Canada's national 4 way team started underage. Most started skydiving solo at 14, but did tandems at ages as young as 5 or 6, I believe.... And had many hours of tunnel time by the time they started soloing. Benoit only had a couple of hundred jumps when he graduated onto the 4-way team and has been placing 4th or 5th at world meets for a couple of years.... I don't believe their average went down at all when Benoit replaced another more experienced member, despite his youth and low number of jumps, because of the focus and tunnel time. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

...one school owner who thought it would be more of a burden to his competition then to him, and lobbied for it. __________________________________________________ And to give you a further idea of why I think it isn't all safety, this dzo who allegedly lobbied for a while for the new rules on a/c and parachuting operations figured he could get around them because of the way his business was configured was later found to flying his a/c in deficient condition. How's that for safety? If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

As it pertains to AAD's I will give DZO's the benefit of the doubt that they want to make the sport safer rather than squeeze out the competition. __________________________________________________ And what would base that on? I've no doubt that maybe some of them have that in mind, or at least in the back of their minds. But I also have no doubt at all that striking out at business competitors any way they can is exactly what you'll see from many dzo's. I would guess you've never served on the board of a skydiving organization. The in-fighting and competition between dzo's is a matter to be ashamed on our board and in some committees. I've heard this from many different board members.... If you look at the last few fatalities in Canada, you'll find most occurred despite the fact that the jumpers had aads on. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

If you want a cheap sport, why not bowl instead of go to a DZ? (question is just as dumb) _________________________________________________ Actually, this comment is unbecoming from a moderator.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

You're already forced to buy a reserve just because some people can't pack. The situation with AAD's is better, though - if you don't like it you can drive to another DZ. No one will force you to jump with an AAD. __________________________________________________ Again, this statement isn't necessarily true. At least in Canada I know there are blocks of dzo's who have been trying to get mandatory aads made a BSR for all cspa, specifically to take away the choice skydivers have of being able to go to other dz's who don't mandate them to be able to jump. Unfortunately, the way cspa is set up, most cspa members by default end up as a member of their school or dz group, and it is these dz groups that are the VOTING MEMBERS of cspa and try to set policy. Some of these dzos have direct competition that they believe they lose jumpers because the nearby dzs are less strict, and their response is to attempt to take freedom away from all of us. It is even alleged that the recent changes in Transport Canada's rules pertaining to parachuting schools and aircraft was in large part brought about by one school owner who thought it would be more of a burden to his competition then to him, and lobbied for it. And so we now have new rules nationally that are a burden on everyone.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

It's those AAD's that are keeping the freefall impact deaths down. Otherwise, I'd say we'd be looking at 40+ fatalities, many of them students, just like it was in the "good old days". I know you remember when students were about half of the fatalities and people you knew burned in with no canopy out. I have at least one friend saved by an AAD, many more who probably would have been. _________________________________________________ And no one is saying that students should be allowed to go back to the days when they didn't wear aads. We're not even saying experienced skydivers shouldn't be allowed to wear aads, or that we won't jump with experienced people that wear aads.... All we're saying is that as experienced jumpers, we shouldn't be FORCED to wear aads on our own personal rigs if we don't want to.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

in the same order of devil's advocating, why mandate a repack cycle ? why mandate TSO'd rigs ? etc etc etc .... _________________________________________________ Well, actually here in Canada we don't mandate TSO'd rigs, don't know about Europe.... As far as repack cycles, yes, but that is based on the materials reserves and containers used to be made of, and they vary as well between countries and have been relaxed in recent years. Mandatory aads for all seem to be seen by some national organizations as a cheap (to them) pr symbol that really adds very little extra safety for experienced jumpers who might choose not to wear them (don't forget, we're NOT saying if you want one you can;t have it), while baffling the gov't with often meaningless good feelings.... After all, in the cases where they're most needed (student jumpers) in most cases they're already mandatory.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

This info was only one manf. of AAD's and just so you know it was not Airtec's info. I would guess the Cypress unit to be the most widely used unit so who knows what there numbers are. While I totally understand the issue is not so much what is safer as is telling someone or mandating use of such units to rub people wrong, however its what I feel is best for my company and specific situation. I realize this limits some that would otherwise spend money and support my DZ. I view it as another form of risk management. ________________________________________________ In the last year I have looked over the data from the three major manufacturers and generally from what I remember the percentages were about the same -- in other words, almost half students or tandems, a large percentage being phases that were known to be problematical, such as transitioning from student gear, or borrowed equipment, and camera flyers, and the last 40% or so was so-called 'experienced' jumpers. Again, I say that probably a percentage of these were already dumping and the aad beat them to it, or maybe they had a two-out .... So the number of 'saves' added by making aads mandatory to everyone is not a lot more than them being mandatory for students, tandems, camera flyers, and maybe dropzone gear for people transitioning before they get to jump their own new gear. That said, many experienced people want to jump an aad anyways, so some of them probably would have already been wearing aads anyways without them being made mandatory. So now you're down to a pretty low percentage of incidents.... Making people run out and buy aads they don't want when they may have multiple rigs (a crw rig, an accuracy rig, another extra rig, vintage gear) is ludicrous. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

With all due respect, Peter, you act as if it's unethical for DZOs to do everything they can to reduce their potential legal liability. Customers can vote with their wallets and go elsewhere if that bothers them so much. _______________________________________________ I might agree with you EXCEPT in several cases I know the dzo's then approach their national association and attempt to get the association to force through rules mandating the aads they want IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE JUMPER'S RIGHT TO JUMP WITHOUT AN AAD AT ANOTHER DZ DOWN THE ROAD. And in some cases they may very well get away with it because the national associations are set up so that the voting members are, by default, the dropzones, and committee and board members are often dzos, also by default. So the fun/experienced jumper often can have very little input into the argument until it is too late. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

I have personally witnesses two saves that would have been fatal accidents without such device. _________________________________________________ Were those two students or tandems that have aads mandated already? or so-called experienced jumpers? I take the stats from the manufacturers with a grain of salt, after all, its a marketing ploy for them (and for dzs that mandate them). But I have to wonder how many of those 'saves' resulted in two-outs, maybe even injuries, because the guy dumped a little low.... And how many would the guy have opened anyways. Always got to remember just because its in 'pro' mode doesn't mean it's an experienced jumper, sometimes freefall students might use pro modes.... So if it was students and tandems, it's already mandated. Why require it of people who know what they're doing? Not to say you can't suggest it -- but why mandate it? 'If' I was made to use an aad in order to jump and it killed me, I'd be pretty pissed off. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

jan's parachutehistory.com is probably the best for the general stuff. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Or Super Sonic Total.... If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

Where I live a gun is a tool. You may not need it every day, but there are are times you will need it. Rabid foxes, bears, coyotes, you name it. And the meat in deer and moose season won't go to waste. Not everybody is living down the hillside of Wounded Knee. I would not like to see the meat which I meet every morning on my dish, such like my neighbour, cats, dogs, rooks, mice (they have the right to live in my garden). The chances to hunt, shoot and kill my daily food here is quite limited. Thus, shooting skills should be a bit more elaborate. If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

How old was Mike was when he died? If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone