mrshutter45

it appears from reading back into the thread you said you were not around Tena Bar several times. Jan 21, 2008 I was at Tena' Bar in 2000 The ONLY time I have been to Tena's bar was when the TV crew took me there in 2000 I was ADAMANT that this WAS not the PLACE he took me to IN 1979. I was not going to pretend this was the area Duane took me to in 1979. July 3, 2008 OK. Duane went NO WHERE near Tena's bar. The closest we got was the Red Lion Inn at the bridge. 2008 I do - I was there in 1979 - not at Tena's bar but above that according to your statements, this could not be the place you are now stating Duane was at where he told you to wait in the car. you were very ADAMANT about these facts. when exactly were you in Washington. you state September a lot, but I also found a post where you stated possibly mid October. this now only give 4-5 months from Feb 10, 1980. not to mention Tom Kaye giving his view of this. if Duane kept the money above ground it would not be damaged. if he put it in a container that was sealed. the money would not be damaged. if the container leaked over the years. the money would be damaged more than what was shown on Tena Bar in my opinion...if we are to understand the crime was committed for the cash, why in the world would it be hidden, buried or not spent? it doesn't fit into the reason of the crime. a Government operation doesn't fit into this either. they could do this little operation standing on there heads. they wouldn't leave it open like this....period. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

" I wonder what happened to the money in that paper bag?" Jo, you can't possibly answer that question without any facts. the facts we know are Duane said it was trash. you are trying to say it was money, even with self admission of not knowing what was in the bag. a theory is based on facts. since you don't know what was in the bag. the theory becomes speculation. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Jan 21, 2008 I never said anything like that! This is the way it was: I was at Tena' Bar in 2000 - there were no shacks there - it used to be a farm. I referrence cabins and not shack and the area of concern is much further EAST. NOT as Tena's Bar. On the Sentimental Journey - he took me to what I think was his safe place and that was a long way from his drop. He did take me to the Columbia after we left Seattle on the way to Tahoe To where there used to be an old Cabin - which is not there anymore...this is when he went down the hill and told me to stay in the car. Then after that we went to a Motel just below the Vancouver Bridge where he tossed something in the river - but this package was already in the car - I thought it was trash - I went to the restroom and when I returned he had already discarded this bag. Note, the trash can was empty at the site. The ONLY time I have been to Tena's bar was when the TV crew took me there in 2000 ---I refused to get on the beach and act like I was looking for money - because when we got there I was ADAMANT that this WAS not the PLACE he took me to IN 1979. I walked away from the Crew and Himmelsbach back to the cars...I was crying and wanted to be alone. I was not going to pretend this was the area Duane took me to in 1979. very confusing....... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Tom Kaye had this to say: Dec 17, 2008 Jo, I can tell you absolutely, positively and with COMPLETE authority, that the bills on Tena Bar had nothing to do with Duane and the bag your talking about. I am listening to all your evidence carefully and trying objectively to see if any of it fits into our investigation. In this particular case the question is answered. Now this is my test for you to see if in fact you really are accepting of new facts that prove Duane innocent or guilty. If you don't accept my answer, and continue to believe the bag is related to the money, it will color your other evidence from my perspective. Thanks, Tom "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Shutter, In 1971 I think the Victor Airways were 5 STATUTE MILES on each side of the airway centerline, which was determined by a radial from each VOR station that was a part of the airway. In the present day it is 4 NAUTICAL MILES (or 4.6 STATUTE MILES) on each side of the airway centerline with some additional widths, based on degrees from the VOR stations, when the stations are more than about 100 NAUTICAL MILES apart. Robert99 thanks, I was under the impression of 8, I was close. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Radar and the reports from the crew, along with the work of NWA employees, is basically how they determined the probable spot Cooper jumped. And it was miles from Tena Bar. That's all I know. Maybe someone should just ask Bill Rataczak the Big Question: 'Was 305 EVER west of the Interstate 5 freeway before it overflew the Vancouver area?' I would look into it just a little more before trying to disprove something you are not familiar with. I'm not saying it was miles away from Tena's bar. I asked if you knew how wide V-23 was. I don't have all of the evidence to claim it was near Tena Bar. Robert99 is making that claim. I'm all ears on what his conclusions are rather than just shooting the theory down without knowing all the details. lot's of people thought the world was flat until it was proven to be wrong. What Robert99 alleges is a radical re-write of the evidence, but you ARE right that there's always a chance he could prove the FBI and NWA wrong about the whole thing. I still believe Bill Rataczak's opinion would be valuable here, though. Since Robert99 is an experienced pilot, and he is the one working on this angle, I think it's his job to contact Rataczak and voice-record the results. (With Rataczak's permission, of course.) Rataczak will take phone calls, but he screens the calls first. Can't say I blame him. And you can't even reach his phone message base if you show up as Anonymous or Info Unavailable on the Caller ID. Rataczak is listed, but wants to KNOW who is calling. I think Robert99, because he is a legit investigator, a pilot, and yes...hasn't written a book...could get his questions answered.

I have no idea what was going on at that time - I think JT was giving me a hard time, but I will go back and see if I can find out WHY I said that. Perhaps that was when someone was trying to convice me I had never been to Tena's bar - for the life of me I do NOT remember saying anything like that. JT was really going at me one time insisting I had never been to Tena's bar. I was starting to believe at one time that it was NOT Tena's bar because of JT. BUT my trip in 2010 was all the affirmation I needed. 2011 you said this: It comes down to memory and time. Time and Space....to remember something that happened 22 yrs before you have reason to recall it - your mind condenses and catelogues specific incidences, but does not compensate for time. The Fazio house and the gate and the water and the area across the river, but that is the only memory I have of Tena's bar. 2008 again: I do - I was there in 1979 - not at Tena's bar but above that. I have also seen many photos of the area. I was at Tena's bar in 2001. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Radar and the reports from the crew, along with the work of NWA employees, is basically how they determined the probable spot Cooper jumped. And it was miles from Tena Bar. That's all I know. Maybe someone should just ask Bill Rataczak the Big Question: 'Was 305 EVER west of the Interstate 5 freeway before it overflew the Vancouver area?' I would look into it just a little more before trying to disprove something you are not familiar with. I'm not saying it was miles away from Tena's bar. I asked if you knew how wide V-23 was. I don't have all of the evidence to claim it was near Tena Bar. Robert99 is making that claim. I'm all ears on what his conclusions are rather than just shooting the theory down without knowing all the details. lot's of people thought the world was flat until it was proven to be wrong. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Robert, do you know how wide V-23 is considered to be? "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

this is where things really get confusing Jo. a couple hours ago you stated this: "OLD lady common sense. Make fun of it but, I was with him the day he took a walk down to the beach at Tena's bar and told me to stay in the car. he had on a blue nylon wind breaker - the pocket were large enough to hold several bundles of banded money." July 3, 2008 you said this. OK. Duane went NO WHERE near Tena's bar. The closest we got was the Red Lion Inn at the bridge. this doesn't sound good here Jo???? here is the post.... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

"Less than a yr - who are you quoting Kaye or Palmer? Palmer said less than a yr!" the quote came from you. "The terminology used was LESS than a yr." The oxidation of sulfur in rubber bands is a well understood process and in fact, the first experiments to detect ozone in Los Angeles used rubber bands around jars [5]. The dual experiments performed here under conditions that are thought to be close analogues of for the bundles on Tena Bar, place an upper limit of about a year on the survivability of the Cooper rubber bands. The rubber band testing outlined in other parts of this research place a constraint of about one year for the bills to become buried on Tena Bar why would Duane bury the money? how do you explain his expenses in the past that you said probably wasn't from stealing? it doesn't make sense. you claim is was broke but bought lots of things, but also buried the money in a pail/milk can/plastic container? went back dug it up and threw it in the river. I'm a little confused on this...... why would you not have evidence available showing you were in Washington? might have, maybe? yes it should be on the taxes. these are things important in proving something. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

about one year Jo.....that would be 10-12 months. not 4 or 5! do you have any pictures or anything showing you were in Washington in 1979? "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Well, Robert why don't you be MORE specific with your use of torqued. If the money was placed in a hole on the beach beneath or under a shed - just how would one propose the hole be dug if the perpetrator carried NO instrument with which to dig - other than his own gloved hands. If one is placing something on a beach how would you propose a person do this. Assuming a person did do this. If one reachs down and digs a hole in the sand - they used their fingertip or gloved hand. The bottom of the hole will be more narrow than the top. If your reference to Torgue is twisted - THINK! The first roll would be bent to fit down in the hole and the other packets would lie flat. Jo, The money was reportedly found in a flat position with only one layer. If some of the money was buried in a more or less vertical position, then that would have been evident to who pulled it out of the ground, rather than just brushed the sand off of it. And that rules out your suggestion. My use of the term "torque" is correctly stated but the term "rotation" may make more sense to you. Basically, the bills shown in the referenced sections of Tom Kaye's web page indicate that one end of the packet of bills stayed close to its original position while the other end of the packet spread out. This is somewhat like what you do when you are holding a hand of cards (poker, bridge, etc.). If you can't view Tom Kaye's page on your computer, then go to your local public library and plug in the web page address on one of their public computers. Despite all your claims, you have access to just about everything, if not everything, on the Internet. So no more excuses about your computer equipment please. Robert99 one could wonder about a plant, but only if someone was hot on your trail. Cooper was 8 years old and a very cold case. why would he plant the money to throw them off the trail....what trail???? putting the money in containers? why, what was then purpose of the crime.....kicks? doubtful. like most unsolved cases we have a "Government cover up" will surface in these cases simply because no answers have been found. The Government would have never done the operation in this manor leaving the case wide open for pot shots year after year. they would either quickly capture him, or find him dead very soon after the crime or "operation" I see lot's of "could be" and "what if's" turn into facts? I wonder how many people email and call the FBI about Cooper on a daily or weekly basis thinking they have the answers? my guess would be none..... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

it's my understanding they believe the bills were there for about a year. "The rubber band testing outlined in other parts of this research place a constraint of about one year for the bills to become buried on Tena Bar." Sept 79 to Feb 80 is 5-6 months??????????????? "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

the 205 bridge was completed in 83 I believe. this is almost 7 miles east of the flight path. what would be the reason for mentioning the bridge? or purpose so far away from the known flight path? if you don't have the proper maps, how can you be so critical about things when speaking? same with the population growth. Blevins wants to change the description of Cooper as well claiming stress among other things. this is typical with an average crime that typically will last seconds, so descriptions can be very fuzzy. Tina, scared or not had a long time to look at him unlike your average crime. I believe the descriptions to be pretty accurate. If I find something wrong with the path you can rest assure I will advise the proper people of the findings and not just claim them on here. currently I'm am having issue's from Toledo to Merwin. the time is not lining up, but you don't see me telling everyone the path is wrong. the testing takes time to insure everything is correct. I don't have 20 hours a week to work on the project so it takes longer than expected... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

the picture from the test of a bill in a jar for 33 months. is this all that was left after this time period? "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Blevins claims KC planted the money. Marla says: "In the event any of the money made it to the ground with the hijacker he probably suspected that the money had been marked or documented or, in the words of Miss Cooper, “He just knew that it (the crime) was wrong.” Jo says Duane put the money on Tina, or threw it in the river in a paper bag? can you guys see how much of a stir you are creating????? did anyone actually see any money? or spend it? here is a 79 photo...I don't see a a shed around the money site.. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

"I have stated before that that money was NOT put on that beach until Sept of 1979!" what proof do you have of this statement? and proof of the reason the bills are in the condition they were found? "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

here is a nice shot of Portland in 1971 "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Quote KC's brother told Mike Simmons on a national broadcast the whole thing was a "good idea for a script for a movie" and that he did not believe Kenny had been Cooper! Lyle and Blevins have some 'splainin' to do! BTW, Porteous says he has cut all ties with Blevins. just another reason not to look into KC. I just don't see anything there.....only stories....just like the rest. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

"Forgive me Shutter, but I am saying that the airliner overflew, or passed less than about 1000 feet west of, Tina Bar. And that Cooper cratered on solid ground very close to where the money was found." no problem here. I just didn't want to over step my boundaries on what I thought you might have said... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

you have continually tried to change the description of Cooper to fit KC. you have him with a pile of money at the end of his life with no real proof where it came from. you have a guy who everyone thinks is telling the truth except you. wasn't one of the guys on decoded a former Prosecutor? you still haven't answered Matt's question about KC actually being a paratrooper. KC's brother seems to be at the heart of this whole issue by claiming KC was Cooper. you get a bunch of emails from people who don't really know much about the case other than he jumped out of a plane....... I don't think Robert99 has ever claimed the plane definitely flew over Tina Bar. I believe he is looking into the as a possibility. you seem to argue every point made from the FBI except the perfect flight path done by lot's of smart people? everything else could be wrong, but not that damn path...... couple posts up you claim nobody knows where Cooper jumped. a couple months back you said Rataczak knew exactly where he jumped? you gave his name and address etc. if Rat tells me something different from the known flight path. it kinda makes it hard to follow the known flight path...no? I think you are a hair misguided in your thoughts.... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

"There was a lot of housing in that area. The area to the East was NOT so populated in 1971." exactly what area are you claiming was not populated east of the flight path? where exactly do you place the path???? what highway are you talking about....... according to census reports Portland has not grown from 1950-1990. the population has been about the same from 1950 to 1970 and drops in 1980. topo maps also confirm this when you look at them. I don't understand where you are claiming area's not populated yet. the growth started in the 90's. I also found lots of pics from the 30's on up. "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

seems he has the flight path all figured out......he thinks he does anyway http://www.thereflector.com/opinion/article_10b1d26c-dd24-11e2-be94-001a4bcf887a.html "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

Jo, do you know a guy by the name of Gary Derowitsch??? "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI