listo

Just being the devil's advocate here.......but wouldn't it make sense to make the exit altitude higher so each individual has enough time to set up something as simple as a slider. Live today as tomorrow may not come

To take that one step further......I would say that instead of the medium sized passengers...they should take passengers that are just a little bit smaller or the same size, but definitely not larger than they are. I know some pretty small TIs. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Damn, I think I have been watching too much Dr. Phil. I have way too many anallogies tonight. Further more, nobody in here is going to convince me that in any way, shape or form is it good to jump without an altimeter, whether on student status or as an experienced jumper. 'Cause it ain't! Let's just say that someone burns in.......and this individual isn't wearing any type of altitude measuring equipment, either visual or audible. How in the hell do you think the press is going to write that up? How is it going to look to a student's family and friends if they go in for what ever reason and they don't have a damn altimeter of some sort. Are you going to tell that student's family that they looked at it too much so we took it away from them. Regardless of why that student went in, it is going to come back to haunt the DZ and the sport that this student wasn't wearing a damn altimeter. Give me a break! "A closed mind is a wonderful thing to waist"-me Live today as tomorrow may not come

Actually, I have jumped without one a few times and it scared the sheeeeeeeet out of me. I pulled high as hell just to make sure I had plenty of altitude to deal with. Instead of jumping without an alti, why not just use your skills of experience and then cross ref your guess. I don't take chances in the air anymore. I did that once and it hurt like hell. As for my night jump ref. What I was getting at is that at night, it is impossible to judge altitude within 1,000 feet without an altimeter. I never assumed anything about your pull altitudes. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Tandem passengers for fun....yes I agree with you, but tandem passengers for instruction......well, if they don't pull at the correct altitude.....I fail 'em! well, if the students are looking at an altimeter when they are flaring, then the instructors have done a terrible job of instructing them. Any student program I have ever seen teaches a student to look straight ahead at flare time and when they are at around 10 feet high to flare the canopy. There isn't an altimeter anywhere out there that is precise enough to tell you when to flare. We also use flags to visually give a flaring cue to students if the radio malfunctions. One of the first things I tell my students is that an altimeter is only good down to about 500 feet, after that, use your eyes. That is like saying that a life jacket is an annoying distraction when you are in your 10' home made wooden boat, crossing a narrow channel when the waves are 20 feet high, the current is going about 35 mph and you can see the opposite shore. Oh yeah, dont forget the pirahnas that are waiting to eat you too. What is annoying about a student that is keeping track of their altitude? When they are comfortable enough with using their mental clock, then teach them more. pulling, altitude awareness, pulling, landing with a good canopy and pulling are the most important things a student needs to know. Flips, turns and all of that other stuff are secondary to the three things I just stated. If they do those three things, then they will be around to skydive again another day. Who knows, they might actually learn how to shoot you the bird in free fall for telling them that they look at their altimeter too much. There is only one thing in skydiving that keeps you alive to do it again and that is altitude. Forget about it or misjudge it and you don't have to worry about pulling my friend. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I agree that a skydiver needs to be able to judge altitude without an altimeter, but wouldn't it be better to tell students to constantly guess their altitude and then cross refference their guess with an instrument. I do this on every jump and have been since I started jumping. I guess that being a pilot since I was 16 has instilled in my head that I always need to know where I am in the air. It just seems crazy to me to tell a student, who has no skills in doing so, to go up and try to guess how high you are. I would even feel bad telling an experienced jumper to do something like that. I know that we need to be able to rely on sight for a semi accurate positioning vertically, but not having an alti so someone can learn is like taking someone 500 yards into the ocean, throwing them overboard and telling them to learn how to swim. It just doesn't make any valid sense. We need to tell them to wear that altimeter and make a guess two or three times while under canopy or in free fall at the altitude and then cross refference it with the altimeter. Other wise, you will end up with people who are thinking that 2,500 is 3,500. This is a terrible way to teach altitude judgement in my opinion. Live today as tomorrow may not come

wouldn't it have been easier and safer to just let the person getting coached keep paying for additional jumps until they figured out that looking at the alti so much was getting expensive. At least this way that individual would have been safer. I will NEVER take someone's alti from them. I on the other hand would suggest getting an audible so they don't have to be so afraid of not looking at it so much. The audible could serve as a mental "life jacket" for altitude awareness.....which this person obviously cared a lot about. I have often loaned an extra audible to someone that I am coaching, especially someone that is free flying. Ya gotta be smarter than the situation to keep safety at a peak my friend. Again, I disagree. I use my eyes as a back up for a precision instrument. Mechanical things fail from time to time and our eyes are not good at judging depth. Personally, pulling low is not an option. I would have a lot more reserve rides if it were. I have managed to fix ALL of my mals by pulling no lower than 3,000. Not saying that I have never pulled lower than 3K, but because I pull higher on each dive, I have saved a lot of $$$ on repacks and handles and free bags. I also jump at a dz that is surrounded by swamp too so it is more likely to lose a canopy as well. I would suggest that you focus more on that alti and use an audible as well as use your eyes as a back up instead of a primary. I would venture to say that you haven't done many night jumps? Live today as tomorrow may not come

I am sorry Dave, but trying to save a dive over saving a life is not an option for me. That shows me terrible instruction on who ever's part that did that. There is only one thing more important than altitude awareness and that is pulling. Live today as tomorrow may not come

No, this is a static line progression situation. I have just never heard of anything like this and was appalled to hear of it. It seems to me that this needs to be changed. To me, this in some way might lead a student to believe that it is ok to forget an alti sometimes and that relying on their judgement is a suitable alternative. Personally, I suggest to any student that the first things they need to buy are goggles, helmet and an altimeter as well as an audible. Altimeters are cheap, lives aren't. Humans have terrible depth perception, especially at long distances (anything over 100 feet away) Live today as tomorrow may not come

I agree completely. I know when my bag comes off of my back if something is going to be funky, but I have hundreds of jumps of experience on this rig. I just don't see why anyone needs to be in free fall or under canopy without an altimeter. That just doesn't make sense to me in the least. It goes back to "teach a student how to skydive". From the first static line jump I went on, one of the first things I was taught was that there is essential gear for a skydive. Properly packed and current rig. altimeter that is set to "0" helmet goggles and clothes are optional cold beer or other beverages of choice in a cooler or fridge for after jump socials were also optional, but we got failed for not having an altimeter and tried to get on the plane. We would have to do the jump, but none the less, we failed it. I might add that I never failed any of my student jumps. I always make it a point to look around at everyone on a load to make sure that they have all of their straps fastened correctly, an altimeter and ask if everyone has checked their AADs. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I know that this is the wrong thread, but do you know anything about the new PD rocket ship? A simple yes or no will suffice, however if you have heard anything about a release date................ Live today as tomorrow may not come

I agree completely that it sucks using someone else's story to emphasize the dangers of downsizing. It takes a personal meaning though when it is your own story. I would never wish my pain of my stupid mistake on my worst enemy. Now, Sadam Hussein or Osama.....well that is another story. I would like to take them on a tandem, disconnect while in free fall and then deploy while I held onto their hair. On a serious note though.....hitting the ground hurts like hell. Although it isn't a pain that words can describe. I am going to try for those of you that haven't felt it so you might not want to even get close to it. It feels kind of like having the breath knocked out of you and at the same time feeling like your soul is clawing its way out with razor blades. If that isn't enough, spending weeks and months feeling your stupidity everytime you roll over in bed or try to walk adds 100x the reminder of how stupid it was to even take a chance with your health in that manner. All of this is if you are lucky enough to be alive to feel it. There will be times when you will be glad to feel that pain and then there will be times that you will wish you had died so the pain would go away. Meds only work on your brain, not the pain. So for any of you hot shots out there that think it is cool to downsize......remember that most of the people out there that are alive and swooping the small stuff has put in the time and gained the experience the hard way. The hard way can be one of two things........either hitting the ground or putting in the years and jumps to get good enough to usually be where they are. Either way, the latter usually is what people come back to if they are still alive. Just a thought from someone who has been there. "a closed mind is a wonderful thing to waist"-me Live today as tomorrow may not come

HookNswoop lives in Colorado I believe. He could probably help you a little. Hell, take a vacation and come to Atlanta March 5-9. Skills #1! Hot swoops, hot chics, hot coaching, hot parties..........need I say more. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Well, on this I have to agree completely. There is some really bad advice being given to unknowing souls this day in time. I see your point on this one. I would have said a CushyOpener 2.0 instead Sorry for the sarcasm in that post as well with this one. Don't you just love how you can pick someone's phrase apart to make it sound like something else sometimes. I hate it when people do this to me. I know what you mean though, and yes, once again, you are correct in what you are saying. This would be a good thing in my opinion. After all, people who are going to be selected for the Olympics are going to have to represent our country. We aren't going to select someone that is immature and a terrible representation of our country and what we do. More over, that person that is selected is going to be someone that is one hell of a pilot or pilots that could compete in a strong and mature manner. Personally, I think that it would be a better way to make role models. The PST is great and the top dogs have fun, but when it comes to talking about canopies and the way they fly them......well they always demonstrate utmost precision and maturity. On camera, they are goofballs, but in the air, they are mature. Honestly, I think a lot of the attitude comes from watching the "big boys" on cameral being cool and the people who see this try to reciprocate that attitude in their flying and get hurt. The "big boys" will be the first to tell you that immaturity in the air causes people to get hurt or killed. I really think that someone should have to pass a maturity test before being allowed to swoop. I mean, be cool and goofy all ya want on the ground, but keep it real in the air. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I am not going to say where in the world or how I found out about this training method. What came to light was a DZ that took students on dives and would not give them an altimeter because they wanted them to learn how to visually judge altitude. I asked how they knew how high they were and I was told that they are to count while in free fall. I asked about emergencies and I was told that each student is told that a "5 second rule" applies. "If you have a malfunction, you have 5 seconds to fix it and then you are to go to your emergency procedures" Now, personally I find this to be extremely dangerous. Lets just say for instance that a student forgets to count for about 10 seconds. That would put them about 1,500 feet lower than they thought. Now lets consider that this student is wearing a cypres (or should be anyway). Ok, now this student has a pilot chute in tow at 1,500 feet, they wait for the five seconds for it to clear. Keep in mind that this student doesn't have an altimeter to know how high they are. At four seconds from deployment the PC in tow deploys and the canopy is sniveling right into the fire zone of the cypres. whaaaaboom! Instant two canopy out situation with a possible main-resereve entanglement. What possible good could ever come from putting a student out of an airplane without an altimeter. The arguement of "so they will learn to visually see altitude" is a fallacy in my opinion. I learned altitude visually by comparing my guesses with the altimeter. What is everyone's take on this? Please keep any direct quotes in association with names out of this thread and please don't mention any dropzone names either. I don't want to get shot over this. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Better yet, this is going to be a new thread. Look for students jumping without altimeters Live today as tomorrow may not come

Thanks for the reply Push. I have never heard of anything like this at all and I think that it is unsafe too. After all, how many times does haze make things look different while under canopy or in free fall. Personally, I never jump without an alti and I surely wouldn't put out a student without one either. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I couldn't agree more! I know a lot of instructors that use video on every jump as a courtesy to their students. I know that I do as well. On another note, how does everyone in here feel about putting a student out of an airplane without an altimeter, deliberately? The reasoning I was given was that they want the student to be able to judge altitude by sight. I asked about emergency procedures and I was told that students are given a 5 second rule for emergencies. Meaning that you have 5 seconds to fix a line twist or baglock or PC in tow ect.... Personally, I am astonished at this method of training. However, I don't know what types of BSRs this place is operating under, but to me a 5 second rule is pretty vague. 5 seconds under a line twist is going to burn about 200 feet or so. 5 seconds under a PC in tow is going to eat up nearly 1,000 feet. 5 seconds under a baglock or partial canopy could easily eat up 1,000 feet as well. What is the general consensus of this? Live today as tomorrow may not come

to clarify my opinion...... I was referring to a student on a 5 or 10 second delay. I would much rather take a student through a quick AFF ground study after they have completed the static line jumps than turn them lose with just enough time to hang themselves. This is just my opinion. I think that is where the confusion is coming in between SL and AFF. Personally, I don't agree that a student ever needs to be in free fall by themself until they have displayed enough control in free fall to an instructor who was in free fall with them. To enact my opinion into a working training method would have to incorporate static line students into an AFF atmosphere. IS this going to happen......more than likely not. It just scares the poop out of me when I see a student going into free fall for the first time when they are alone. As for the pulling thing.....yes, you are quite correct. Above all else pull. What I was saying was that I personally would much rather see a student out of control at 6,000 feet with an instructor to assist them instead of an out of control student at 4,000 all by themself. I am not saying that we should abolish static line progression completely. However, I will never reccomend it as a training method to any whuffo I meet on the street. I will push AFF or Tandem progression instead. This is just my opinion and I want to make that quite clear. After all, I am a product of static line progression and I did just fine with it, but it definitely is nowhere as safe as AFF or Tandem in my opinion. Please understand what I am saying here folks....this is just my opinion and I don't want people to get in a hissy thinking that I am saying we need to abolish static lines. That isn't for me to say or do. I am not an S&TA nor do I work for the USPA. Live today as tomorrow may not come

wear a neck brace just in case. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I really don't see thread drift here. People for the most part are talking about their own experiences under different types of canopies at different levels of their careers. Personally, I was a dumb, hard headed idiot that almost killed myself. I don't have a problem admitting it now because I have learned from it and hope that someone else might as well. My story is this, on jump number 120 I bought a viper 120 which I loaded at 1.65:1. On jump number 156 I pounded myself into the ground breaking 3 vertabrae in my back, breaking and dislocation of my left hip and shattering my left femur into 5 pieces. I had to spend six months away from skydiving. I also had to relearn everything I thought that I knew about canopies. It turned out that I didn't know diddly about it even though I had stainless balls and a hard head to protect my brain. Bouncing 10 feet into the air after hitting the ground in a dive really sucks. I think I pose as a great example of why low timers don't need to be flying high wing loadings, it is just terribly dangerous. Currently, I am swooping my butt off and with accuracy as well. I am also flying at 2.0 right now too. Mind you that I don't snatch hooks anymore, rather I tend to get the long smooth carves that build radical speed. The kind that are a lot easier to bail out of if need be. I got lucky and then got smart. I would much rather have just gotten smart and left the luck up to someone else. Live today as tomorrow may not come

sorry squeak, I have to agree with Ron on this one. I always pack my own rig just for the sake of safety. I always know what I am jumping every time. I have over 2,000 pack jobs and no malfunctions causing reserve rides. I also have just under 700 jumps. Careless packing is like driving drunk, it isn't an option. Be ever vigilant when you pack a canopy, you never know when a fun jump might turn into a ......"I need to deploy to keep from hitting that goofball below me who tracked up jump run and opened high". That isn't the time for a malfunction, actually it might be the difference of not just saving one life, but two or more. Live today as tomorrow may not come

are you saying that you have people that are willing to pay their own slot to go on a phase II jump with a candidate. Personally, I wouldn't let them pay their own slot, they are doing me a favor by just jumping with me. None the less, I am starting to see why the option of finding a new dz for myself is looking better and better all of the time. This guy really didn't do anything to hook me up at all other than fronting my expenses to me and then letting me work them off. It seems that I am paying one hell of an interest rate though As far as cameras go.......did I mention I am poor? I am just happy to have a decent digital on my head at this point. I started out with a Sony Hi-8 (aka a toaster oven) I actually used tandem vids and packing to pay a bit off my rating. The rest of it came from working side jobs in construction and a few tandems themself. Live today as tomorrow may not come

nah, not yet........I did get a new canopy though and I am planning on getting a new container soon as well and it will have them, rest assured. I do take my cut-away handle out frequently and wipe it down with a silicone cloth to clean and lube it up. I usually do this after each month of jumping to get the sand out of the cable housings both on the rig and risers though. I just put a rubber band with a small dowel around my three rings so I don't have to completely disconnect my canopy from the container. This way I don't have to have someone help me do a line check each weekend. The three rings are never realeased, just the cable is pulled out and wiped down and then re-inserted. It doesn't hurt to have a rigger look at it though after it is done or you could have your rigger just do it for you if you want. It does make a huge difference in pull force. By the way, never until now, have I ever wanted to kiss Homer LOL Live today as tomorrow may not come

dang, it does sound like I got hammered then. Well, he just bought two new rigs so I guess he was just trying to make sure they were paid off. I really don't mind though. This way I can say that I paid for everything from the slots to gear rental to the course without getting any favors. I honestly "own" my own rating and everything included in it. Actually, I take a little bit of pride in that fact because I am poor and that means that I had to work that much harder to get what I wanted to acheive. The other thing is that I don't feel like I owe any favors in return if I decide to just up and move at my leasure either. Live today as tomorrow may not come