listo

letting go of toggles huh.....what a friggin idiot! Thanks for the post Dave, I needed a good laugh. That is just a good way to get three things to happen for sure. 1st it will lead to another senseless fatality. 2nd, it will give us another bad rap in the general public's views of what we do. 3rd, it will prove Darwinism to be correct. Live today as tomorrow may not come

On the PRO Qualifying Carving runs, are those done downwind, into the wind or what? From what I have read, it appears that I have to make the entry gate (5' ?) carve 220' and clear the exit gate without touching down on 5 pre-declared jumps. Of course all of which can only be done after acheiving the 500 points in the advanced series. Is this correct? Live today as tomorrow may not come

gotta know when to bail for the sides brother Isn't a little cold for water landings right now! Live today as tomorrow may not come

I am not going to harp on you about your attempts to gain a higher performance swoop, but I am going to share with you something that I did. On jump number 156, I had been experimenting with front riser approaches. I knew I was high enough to execute my typical 180 front riser so I went ahead with it. I found that I was a little higher than I though so I buried both fronts to lengthen my dive and gain more speed. However my lack of experience at that time didn't allow me to see the proper sight picture. The end result was that as I was plaining out and sinking into my swoop with a level canopy, I ended up framming myself into the ground. I shattered my left femur into 5 pieces, broke and dislocated my left hip as well as achieved multiple fractures in three vertabrae in the middle of my back. I hit the ground at about 20mph vertically and 35-40 horizontally. So, I would suggest to you that if you really want to try high performance landings to wait until you have at least 200 jumps on your current canopy. I had to take off a year from something that I love more than sex. My ex-girlfriend can attest to that fact to. Oh yeah, having injuries like that will also greatly hamper your sex life for a while too. Take it slow man. Your life is only going to be as long as you want it to be, based on the decisions you make while skydiving. Honestly, I probably shaved 20 years off of my life by making one stupid mistake and I am damn lucky to be alive. Currently, I am back and better than ever and fully understand why people were telling me what they were. It is a common thing for newcomers to want to advance and to think that they are better "than what everyone thinks". Quite honestly, neither you nor myself are any different than anyone else out there. Some of us are just luckier than others. Don't depend on luck, your life and well being depend on it. Experience and good judgement will take you further and make you better as well as more respected. Be safe, learn as much as you can and by all means listen and learn from those who have been there. But most of all .........HAVE FUN! Live today as tomorrow may not come

I posted this in here for the reason that body positioning is so very important to get across to our younger brothers/sisters. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Well, I have this thought to add to everything I have read in here. There seems to be a great misconception that a proper flare is always equal. I disagree with this one. A good flare is one that allows you to gracefully trade forward speed into lift while maintaining heading. As your jumps progress you will find that the wind is not always going to be directly in your face. You will experience a crosswind from time to time. If you get into a habit of flaring with both toggles even all of the time then you will end up rolling a lot more. I would suggest that you fly the canopy through the landing flare each time. There are going to be times when your ending flare is not going to be even. You will learn more about this as your experience grows. The main thing you need to concentrate on is keeping your heading while making a nice smooth flare instead of "stabbing" for a flare. Get with some of your more highly experienced people on your DZ and stay with the same 2 or 3 people. This way you get reliable advice and not too many different opinions. Good Luck! Have someone else jump your canopy too. You might have something out of trim or need adjustments to your brake lines. Live today as tomorrow may not come

On Feb 1 2003 a static line student exited a cessna 182 for a ten second delay student jump. The jumper to my knowledge was on his 10th skydive and his 4th freefall. All of his previous jumps went very well to my understanding. The exit was clean and the freefall was good as well. When the student reached for the ripcord he dropped his right knee severly as well as pulled his left hand back to his side. The result was that he rolled and went into a head down position as the main was deploying. His leg became entangled in the right side suspension lines causing the canopy to spin violently. He attempted to cut away on the single handle system but only the left side released because his leg had his weight suspended on the right side. The reserve deployed into a partially cut away main causing it to collapse as well. The student hit the ground under a partial reserve and streaming main. He landed on the runway on his back and head. The student was trying to talk as he was being airlifted to a nearby Medical University for treatment. Upon inspection of the rig. The toggles on both canopies were still stowed. The cypress was armed but had not fired. However a cypress fire would not have done any good as he had already deployed the reserve, but it does serve to help understand the speed at which he was travlelling vertically. He was using a student cypress. The 3-ring release on the main was released on the left side but the right side was still intact even though the cut-away cord had been pulled through the 3-ring loop. It should have released had his leg not been tangled severly in the suspension lines. The student is alive at this point but is in serious condition in an intensive care unit. He suffered a tremendous number of fractures including having most of his teeth knocked out, his face being crushed, numerous broken ribs and his legs being broken. He is very lucky to be alive, in fact it is a miracle that he is alive. This was posted to serve as a reminder that good body positioning is very serious business and we need to drive this point home to students. Instructors, you especially need to work on this with your students. The jumpmaster on the load is a very good friend of mine and is a really good instructor. He always emphasizes good body positioning as well as other safety issues constantly. This just goes to show that no matter how good of an instructor a person is, that accidents do happen. Please keep this student as well as my friends at this DZ in your prayers. Live today as tomorrow may not come

AHHHHHH.....I think that this is the door just coming into vision that opens to the world of great public recognition! I send my greatest congratulations to the good ole YANKS........Jim Slaton and Lyle Presse. Kudos guys! Everyone needs to look at the big picture here. For the most part, how many Nascar drivers start out with sponsorships? Not one, unless his/her father was a racer to start with. How many professional skate boarders, snow boarders or BMX'ers have sponsorships when they start out. None. People all over the world get hurt even killed while trying to learn how to drive fast, do tricks on the half pipes and get big air on the slopes. Yes, as skydivers we get into a higher lime light because it involves aviation, but the great thing about our sport is that even though we have to involve aviation, we are a seperate entity all together. Personally, I think that a world recognized sport such as pond swooping and high performance canopy flight is just what we need to make swooping safer overall. It would show the need for coaching as well as provide a reasonable basis for upcoming high performance wanna be's to see what is important about what we do. Sure, the cost of training would go up and there are going to be the few ignorant souls who appose it, but man oh man.......we would get better and faster and safer as time progressed........as a whole. People are going to go out and try stuff based on their own ........well ignorant securities. We can't stop that. However, having it recognized as a dangerous and highly rewarding event would lead to a much more educated group as a whole...... KEEP KICKIN ASS PST! GET US IN THE OLYMPICS BABY! Live today as tomorrow may not come

Next step could be the indoor swooping festival. *** INDOOR SWOOPING What a great concept, I have always invisioned an indoor skydiving arena......what the hell.....an indoor swooping arena would could be much shorter than an indoor skydiving arena OOOOOOO THE POSSIBILITIES Live today as tomorrow may not come

Actually, I would say that the same rules should apply to any swoop course, whether over ground or water. It just makes sense to me........ Derek, what do you think brother? Live today as tomorrow may not come

I am about the same exit weight as you and I fly camera as well. From what I have seen the Xaos's have the nicest openings and best low end lift capability. However, at 300 jumps on my stiletto 120 and a total of just under 700 jumps, I would say downsize to a crossfire2 or stiletto 120 first. The Samurai is a pretty high performance canopy but it is nothing like the crossfire2 or stiletto, not even close. The point that I am getting to is that if you try to compare a samurai to a x-brace, then you will be dramatically suprised when it is time to land. The samurai is extremely forgiving in comparison. You have nothing to lose by waiting and increasing your level of experience on a 120 before going x-braced. This is coming from someone that is your same size, a high performance 120 is nothing like the old series crossfire in the 130 range. The old crossfires in the 130 range fly more like a 150 in comparison. With the jump numbers you have, you would more than likely be ok to do it, but you would be much better and safer if you did another 200 jumps on a truly high performance canopy such as the crossfire2 119 or stiletto 120. From what I have seen, the Samurai 120 had a dive similar to the Stiletto, but had nowhere the same lift capability. On the same note, the crossfire2 has a longer dive so that might be the best option yet. However, I really didn't see much difference in the low end lift between the crossfire2 and the stiletto. .......I have also heard rumor that PD is coming out with a stiletto2 ......that opens up a whole new world if they do. The other thing to consider is this. In the next year or two, there are going to be completely new x-brace designs with better openings. Don't be in a hurry, you might find yourself happier in the long run. Right now, I am getting consistant 80-100 yard swoops on my stiletto 120 @ 1.95. At the same time I am understanding why people were telling me to be careful when I got it. It has taken me right at 300 jumps to master a safe approach and consistant accuracy with this canopy. As a matter of fact, I use a frizbee for an ending target now.....it is only now that I am considering a crossbraced canopy. Oh yeah, the one time I thought I knew enough to fly what ever........I ended up in the hospital with a shattered femur, broken hip, and destroyed back. The video shows that I did my turn at enough altitude, but didn't recognize that my dive was longer than I needed. If I had about 3 feet more altitude I would have been just fine and had one hell of a swoop....... Just a thought. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I haven't been to a lot of DZ's with ponds. However, one of the ones that I saw that had their act together in relation to pond swooping. I went there with intentions of getting on the pond. I asked around and found out quickly that they are very serious about the pond. They wanted me to swoop over the ground first for evaluation purposes. The pond swoops had to be declared before each jump to manifest as well as to the whole load before take off. I didn't ask what would happen if someone swooped it without pre-declaring before hand, but I can guess that grounding would be in order. It is a really good idea to have pre-declaration of a pond swoop for numerous reasons. 1st, you would have everyone know that someone is going for it so people would have previous knowledge to stay out of the way if they aren't going for it. 2nd, you would know who is going to try for it and if they aren't qualified, then the situation could be addressed. This way it is fair to everyone in the air, not to mention if you have some jackleg fly over the pond when people are trying hook it in, they can be addressed for the unsafe flight pattern they took. The main thing about this approach to swoop ponds it that it sets a basic set of rules for everyone to adhere to. You will also know who is going to be going for the pond and you can weed out the people that shouldn't be trying it and give them the proper knowledge and advice for doing such things without getting the random unexpected TRUCK making the low toggle approaches and not seeing the qualified swoopers above and behind them, which leads to radical accidents...... I have seen this at a few other DZ's, but I have never seen it enforced quite as strongly as I did at this DZ. I really think this is the way to go. Talk to your DZO about this and see what you can come up with. After all, nobody wants to piss off the DZO, so if he/she sets the rules, then everyone has to adhere to them. ............right!? Live today as tomorrow may not come

I have a question here.......this is for all of the swoop gods in here. I am looking at buying an X-braced canopy. I have been leaning towards the VX, but the Chaos 27 is also another option for me. Here are my questions: 1. I have heard from a few people that have Chaos 21's say that the canopies get really squirrelly when they experience turbulence, does the 27 have the same problem. What I am referring to is that the canpopies have partially collapsed when in the recovery arc for a swoop when they hit moderate turbulence. I have seen this twice also and it scared the buh jesus out of me. ( I love the openings that the Chaos gives by the way. It looks like a crossfire) 2. The VX has a reputation for slamming open sometimes. From my research, it appears that the VX is a more stable canopy in turbulence, but I have broken my back previously and I can't stand hard openings. Does anyone have any tricks for packing or slider mods or anything along these lines for smoother openings on the VX? Currently I am jumping a Stiletto 120 @ 1.98 I have had to do some pretty resourceful engineering on my packing methods to make this thing be nice to me, but I have been able to keep the openings consistant and at a "medium" level. I really can't afford to go much further than that on the openings. I would like to go with a VX, but if the openings can't be tamed consistantly, then I am going to have to go with the Chaos just for the openings. Thanks guys. .....and by the way, I am not trying to get a fude going here. this is just for my own personal knowledge. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Brother, I am scared for you. It seems that you didn't come in here to get questions answered. You aren't listening to anyone. You are defending what you are doing. Honestly, you are being hard headed. The test of whether you can fly your canopy is not what you do with it in a tight landing area. The test is when you have completely learned and mastered the one size larger. It is impossible to MASTER a canopy in less than 200 jumps. I dont care what anyone says. Even the pro tour guys will tell you this. You are flirting with danger man. You will have plenty of time to get good. What is your rush to be good now. Do you really think that you are the prodigy that is going to win the Pro Swooping World championship on your 500th jump. I have news, you wont and you will die trying. Slow down, put your 150 in the closet and go get a 170. I am interested to know at what altitude your DZ is? that has a major affect on what you jump too. If you really want to learn from my experiences, then upsize or do just straigth approaches. Honestly, you have lived through 70 jumps on the thing, you might have learned enough to keep yourself alive. When you can stop on a 1 meter target straight in, then try reaching for your risers. That is what I did. I use a frizbee for a target now and I am jumping a 120 @1.9. Please, for your own sake and the reputation of our sport. Slow down a little bit. You will be good enough in plenty of time. And then you can pass on the good judgement to those following you. I am now doing just what people were doing to me when I was where you are brother. Take it slow, and I would suggest that you print out the post i put in here about my accident and read it before every jump. You might find yourself alive and healthy a lot longer if you do. I really am fearful for your health with the attitude you have towards skydiving right now. You seem to be doing it for all of the WRONG reasons. Skydivers are cool, we dont have to try to look cool. Live today as tomorrow may not come

So, what does everyone have to say about this? Well, I am not going to harp on what you are doing, but I will just say this. You have the exact same attitude I had and it sounds like you are doing the same stuff I was doing. Just FYI, I had been practicing and practicing, up high and down low. One day I thought that I had it figured out. I was 100% sure that I could handle the shit out of the canopy I was jumping. Long story short.....I did a rotating front riser, the picture was that I was a little high so I burried the risers some more to get a really good swoop. Little did I know, in that .5 seconds of extra front riser on my viper, I had put myself way too low. I hit the ground at about 35mph vertically and about 40-50mph horizontally. I bounced 10 feet into the air, did a flip through my risers. I thought that I was on the ground so I tried to lay back.I knew I had hit hard. I opened my eyes to see that I was still flying and had no clue what was up and what was down. About that time I hit right on my ass and broke my back really bad. I was laying down then, so I sat up. I looked down to see that I had 5 knees on my left leg and looked up to see everyone running to me and screaming. Now, my total injuries incuded a left femur that was in 5 pieces, a dislocated and broken left hip and my back was broken in three places. If this sounds fun to you, then by all means keep doing just what you are doing with the same attitude you have brother. Here is my advice to you, take it for what you will. I am now a pretty shit hot swooper. I had to drop back to a larger canopy when I came back from my injuries. I had to learn everything all over again. The main thing I learned was that I really didn't know exactly what I thought I did. If I did know what I thought that I knew, I wouldn't have had to relearn anything. When you are in the really low experience range, you tend to give yourself false sense of security. It has happened to everyone out there who is worth the air they are speaking with. Nobody wants you to get hurt and as experienced jumpers we want to share our experiences with you to keep you healthy, much less alive. Take your time man, you will be there soon enough and you wont have life long injuries to really slow things down for you. If i had another 2 feet of altitude, I would have skated right through it and never hit the ground. Truth is, I might be dead now though. There are old pilots and bold pilots...... you can learn from the old pilots, but the bold pilots have legacies that look cool. You decide. Again, I am not harping here. Just sharing an experience. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Do the 5 PRO candidate jumps on the carving lane have to be done into the wind or downwind? I can see where this would have a drastic effect on the outcome of distance.

OK PEOPLE........I HAVE ASKED THE MODERATOR TO REVIEW THIS THREAD. THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT NEEDED. I WOULD ASK THAT EACH OF YOU GO BACK AND READ THE WHOLE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST ANOTHER STATEMENT. PLEASE READ WHAT I AM SAYING AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR ARGUMENTS BY ANY MEANS. IT IS A THREAD FOR WAYS TO IMPROVE THE SAFETY OF TRAINING FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LEARN TO SWOOP THE POSTS THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE ADDED TO THIS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN IDEAS........I AM LOOKING FOR SUGGESTIONS FROM REASONABLE PEOPLE THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE THIS PART OF THE SPORT SAFER FOR THE NEWCOMERS. NOT TO REGULATE. LET ME MAKE THIS CLEARER.......SHOULD WE HAVE SOME KIND OF GUIDELINES FOR A BEGINNING SWOOPER (whether they have 200 or 2000 jumps total) TO HAVE TO MEET CERTAIN CRITERIA FOR SWOOPING AT A GIVEN WL BEFORE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO "SWOOP" SOMETHING SMALLER? TAKE NOTE, I SAID SWOOP SOMETHING SMALLER, NOT JUMP SOMETHING SMALLER. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. I MADE REFERENCE EARLIER TO MY DEFINITION OF A SWOOP VS. A NORMAL APPROACH. OH YEAH, THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT NEEDED AND ONLY SHOW IGNORANCE Live today as tomorrow may not come

ok.............first of all I am going to ask that if you are going to use the threads for personal attacks then keep your mouth for the dropzone. NOW.....if you care to read back a little you will see that what I have been talking about is that I would like to see some kind of training program set up for people who want to learn how to swoop safely and have some kind of reward for what they are doing. I personally would like to know that I am jumping with someone that has met an ACTUAL criteria or guideline for what they are jumping and trying to do with what they are jumping. I AM REFERRING TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SWOOP. I AM NOT TRYING TO IMPLEMENT SOMETHING THAT WOULD REGULATE DOWNSIZING. I am going to suggest that this thread be locked ASAP because it seems to be bringing out the hot headed "I know it all's". I was merely putting a suggestion up for people to talk about. I DO NOT WANT TO START A THREAD FOR PEOPLE TO VOICE WHETHER OR NOT REGULATION SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED FOR DOWNSIZING. I am afraid that some low experience jumpers are going to read this and think that it is ok to just go out, buy a rocket ship and hook themselves in while trying to learn how to swoop. That is absolutely ludicrous! I am pleading to all those people who are reading this and posting to think about who is reading it as a whole and who is going to take "what" from what you are saying. We are in the "genesis" of HP canopy flight. Those of us who have learned, have a responsibility to teach those who are following us. We are the parents of HP flight and our "kids" are following by our examples. Blue Skies, Loooooooooooooong Swoops, Sam THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.......YOU TEND TO NOT LOOK AS IGNORANT AT TIMES IF YOU DO

***Almost anyone can learn to swoop at a basic level and not get hurt, it's just not that difficult. It's experience however that will keep you alive during a swoop gone wrong. That experience doesn't necessarily need to come from swooping, it comes from time under canopy and the only way I know to get that is to increase your jump numbers.*** This is the point that I am trying to get across. How can we implement something to increase the experience levels without hampering the fun and liberty that we enjoy each time we go out? This is the MAIN QUESTION for this thread guys. I am not suggesting that we have laws. I am merely putting out ideas and trying to get feedback. I promise, I am not trying to ruffle any feathers! I think that who ever said that basic aerodynamics should be a required knowledge is right on the money. Sure, when we are flying we aren't anallizing what the canopy is doing in relation to physics, but the basic knowledge DOES lead to a better understanding of what it is doing and MIGHT help us to make better decisions. ........and to recap, THIS IS CONCERNING SWOOPING ONLY. Not just people who want to downsize. PLEASE DONT CONFUSE THE TWO! I know a lot of people that fly at 1.3-1.6 that don't do hooks or carves at all. I am referring to the people who are doing hook turns and carves. PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU ADD YOUR COMMENTS GUYS. Again, just to note. I use caps to hi-lite certain things, not to sound rude or irritated Live today as tomorrow may not come

Dave, I commend you on your accomplishments! I really do. However, someone with only 350 jumps is not considered experienced by any means. Not very many people with 1,000 jumps or better would say that it is safe for someone with 330 jumps to be jumping at 1.64:1. I dont think a canopy manufacturer out there would even send a demo canopy to someone with that experience vs. wing loading ratio. You are by far an exception to the rule. I really hope that you dont ever get hurt. At the same time, you hit on a key issue. COACHING Obviously you had good coaching because you haven't been hurt and you are alive. That is the point that I am making here. We need to implement some kind of coaching with rewards to recognize certain accomplishments, but I feel that it needs to be done with a certain reguard to jump numbers on any given canopy. The same way a Pro rating is acheived. You can't get a Pro rating on a stiletto 150 and then jump a stiletto 135 into a demo. I think that we should have something like that for swooping. Such as a swoop rating on a stiletto 120 and make it so you can't jump anything smaller until you can prove in succesful predeclared jumps with a qualified coach monitoring that you can do it. I am referring to high wing loadings here people, 1.5 and higher. I am not making referrence to anyone who is just progressing to a smaller canopy. I am referring to swoopers who are hooking and carving it. I think that if someone wants to go out and get a wing loaded at 2.0 and they want to fly it straight in on a normal approach, then fine. I am referring to the people who are trying to maximize their swoops and performance. Straight in approaches are one thing, hooks and carves are something completely different! A swoop isn't just something someone does when they fly over the ground parallel to it. A swoop is a high performance manuever that is done by diving your canopy in an attempt to gain as much speed as possible for the longest possible level flight parallel to the ground. Live today as tomorrow may not come

I agree that the PST is doing a great job, but their primary focus is competition and $$$. I am suggesting something for the average person who doesn't want to compete. Not everyone who swoops is interested in competition. Live today as tomorrow may not come

ok, you are right about who is controlling what. I agree with you there. What I am talking about is the 200 and 300 jump wonders going out and buying second hand HP canopies that they will be ready for in about 400 jumps in the future, flying them for about 50 jumps and then deciding one day that they are going to "try" a front riser 180 with a little accuracy and end up getting hurt. It apalls me to think that mature canopy pilots dont want to make what we do safer for all involved and to get the injuries and fatality rates down. Almost 90% or more of the injuries or fatalities in the last 3 years have been because of John "wanna be cool" Swooper going out and doing dumb stuff. Why can't we do something to regulate this kind of thing the same way that the aviation community regulates who flies turbines vs. prop jobs or general pilots vs. aerobatic pilots? I am not saying that we need the USPA to step in by any means, they already do enough. I am suggesting that we come up with a plan to implement some kind of award and test of ability in a controlled atmosphere to make swooping safer for all involved. I only used licensing as an example. Live today as tomorrow may not come

ok, but what if you set a preliminary starting point of having say.......400 jumps and a WL of 1.2 with a straight in approach and have coaching to ensure safe tecniques and have it build up to say ......a "D" being 1500 jumps and anything over 2.0 and have it broken down equally as far as numbers and tecniques used? Jump numbers not being skydives, but actual jumps on the canopies being flown for the licensing purposes. Just a thought to keep low timers from killing or permenantly maiming themselves. The canopy market is getting flooded with HP canopies and low timers are getting them and hurting themselves when they can't buy them from manufacturers. Shouldn't we have some kind of control over who is jumping what. I know that is primarily the DZO's and S&TA's job, but it isnt' being done well enough in my opinion Edit: I guess I should have said this earlier as well, but this would be for a swoop course that would be required and the only people allowed to land there would be swoopers only on predeclared jumps. This thing should be set up outside of the normal landing area as well so as not to affect the usuall canopy traffic. Live today as tomorrow may not come

Should we try to implement some kind of guidelines as to who is swooping to keep the less experienced from trying things they shouldn't until they have adequate experience. Should we try to implement some kind of canopy requirements for licensing purposes. Such as having certain required tecniques mastered for a certain license......such as CANOPY PILOT "A" (CPA, CPB, CPC, CPD)? and have this set up based on a wing loading scale as well. And could we safely implement this. By having student training the same way we have for free fall or free flying as in the AD licensing or 3-D awards. Live today as tomorrow may not come