chuckakers

ding ding. We have a winner! He won't be a winner if he does this in New Jersey. New Jersey has some of the strictest aviation rules of anywhere but California...so I've been told. My point: FAR 105 isn't the only regs you may have to deal with. Of course, as someone mentioned up thread, making a "bandit jump" doesn't exactly follow the rules. I'd be interested to know what states have requirements beyond the FAR's and what those requirements are. My understanding of FAR's is that they can't be superceeded by lower governments, but I don't know anything about piling on above and beyond the FAR's. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

ding ding. We have a winner! Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Man small. Why fall? Skies call. That's all. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Never met the man, but with the outpouring I've seen just on this site, he must have been one helluva guy. I will most certainly join my aerial brothers and sisters in a toast. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I made it for about 15 seconds. Can I get credit for that somewhere? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Yeah - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3398955 Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Dang Hippies! Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

If the DZ doesn't have a clearly stated written policy covering this situation, they should have one. This is especially true if this is something that happens on any regular basis If such a policy is in place, the DZ should simply follow that policy. If not, they should do what is necessary to satisfy the customers in question, even if it means taking a loss or repeating the jump at DZ expense (this is assuming the customers complained). Addressing the situation beforehand is what really should happen to handle such a situation. The DZ could offer a discount for less altitude, or simply provide a raincheck. If the DZ failed to tell the students that they weren't given full altitude, that too is wrong. If the DZ advertises a standard altitude for tandem jumps - or the length of the freefall in feet or time - they should deliver in good faith. What "good faith" is in this situation is what's up for debate. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I'd advise them to do what they want. Of course I always suggest video. That gets some more money out of the unsuspecting fools. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I' well aware of how capitalism works bud. I'm not hating on anybodys DZ, or trying to wreck anybodys hustle all I'm getting at is that if you are paying those kind of prices for a free fall then you are one retarded, ripped off, sorry ass son of a bitch and you as well as any other jumper knows where the fuck i'm coming from the OP asked.. "did I get ripped off" if he payed $300 for a tandem, I say yes he got fucking ripped off bigtime. I'm surprised that he can even walk, his ass must still be chapped. but if he agreed to that price for whatever reason and got what he paid for. I got no beef with that fuck em if they don't know any better right??? does this not seem to be the concensus on this issue?? is this not the point you are trying to convey to me?? Actually Bud, it sounds like you're "hating" on any DZ that markets such a product. Now on top of that, you refer to anyone who willingly pays a big price for that product a "retarded sorry ass son of a bitch". And no, I don't think other jumpers know where you are coming from. That's an assumption on your part. Contrary to your reply, I am not trying to convey "fuck 'em, they don't know any better", nor do I think that is the "concensus on this issue". If the "OP" got what was marketed to him and he paid for, he didn't get ripped off (which we still don't know). You may see extra freefall as having a value different than that of a well-healed, one-time jumper. I once taught (AFF) a multi-millionaire that wanted to jump the Twin Otter on weekdays when there weren't enough people on the DZ to justify flying it, so he would just pay for enough slots to make up the difference. He wanted the comfort, altitude, and climb time of the Otter and was willing to pay for it. Did he get ripped off? There are always going to be people who jump at the chance, excuse the pun, to trash anything that doesn't fit their own norms. That seems to be the case here. Feel free to say what you want about high altitude, high price tandems, but if the demand is there at the asking price, there's nothing wrong with providing the product. You want high priced freefall? Go jump Mt. Everest. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

oh, well Kapowsin has a $450 tandem to 18k, but that is the tandem, a video and pics, t shirt, log book, and what not, so id say its priced accordingly. but if it were 300 for just the tandem to 18k, yeah your right. fuck me running!!! $450 for what????? 1 jump, a $2 logbook, a $15 t-shirt, a video that you would probably laugh at then burn if you actually started jumping. It's called free market capitalism. The DZ markets it, consumers buy it, and everyone's happy. What's the problem with that. It may be the only jump some of these folks ever make, and some of those are more than willing to pay big dollars for all the extras. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Nice catch. Here's a tip that works well: Before exit, double check the 2 3's. 3 connection points properly threaded and 3 handles securely in place. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Well the funnier thing is that you hardly have any skydivers over there. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I am still owed $2500 from an operator that is renowned for not paying his staff, His name is Jim Lyver, he owns NZSKDIVE in New Zealand, and they are constantly advertising for staff on this site. An unsuspecting individual may fall for the tricks that make it sound nice working there (Glenorchy, NZ, one of the most beautiful places on earth, which it is.) then if you don't get paid, and you haven’t got any cash because you were not paid last month either..... Paradise on earth soon becomes hell! He has done this to many people. Some people do not have good morals, and Jim Lyver is among the worst I have ever dealt with. He redefines the word Asshole! People should be able know about these type of things before they fall victim to the vicious cycle. Who needs a DZO review site - we've got dz.com! Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

We men, on the other hand, can sit around for hours, even days, without a single thought in our heads. That's why we are the superior being. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Hey Chuck... I feel as though you think I'm challenging you here and I want to make it clear that I'm not. I know it's difficult to express intent with printed word sometimes. I've had students struggle a bit with heading control while trying to learn things like center point turns and then stay rock solid during deployment. I've seen students master turns and heading control during freefall and then spaz out during deployment. By the time I've seen them, all of them have demonstrated heading control at deployment time. They wouldn't get to me if they hadn't. That most certainly does NOT mean that they won't toss me a wildcard regardless. I've seen a guy who deployed on heading 10 jumps in a row sail off into a combination of spin and barrel roll at pull time. That was CLEARLY a repeat. I wanted your feedback on what the grey area was. I guess I didn't express myself very well. Thanks for clearing that up. Here's your answer: Students will indeed throw wild cards. That's why they're called students. And you are correct, stuff like this often falls into a gray area. As a general rule, students who have reached coach jumps should be able to hold a heading pretty darn well, and should be able to recognize and stop turns as a matter of course. If they can't, the problem may be deeper than a physical inability to perform the maneuver repeatedly. Often, students who have issues with basics like heading control are overloaded mentally, and that is a problem. Example: a student does a good job with heading maintenance during AFF, but then has problems drifting, turning, or even spinning or losing stability on coach jumps (as in your example). This could be a sign that the student is not keeping up with the skydive mentally. During AFF, all the students focus is on himself or herself. In the coaching phase of training, the student is required to focus on flying chunked exits, proximity flying, taking grips, center-pointing, diving and docking, etc. This can be enough to overload the student, which in turn can cause poor basic flying skills to surface. They're "spazzing out" if you will. These problems often surface at stressful moments for the student, like pull time. We've all seen otherwise excellent students do stupid stuff at the bottom of the skydive. As far as pass/fail, and a specific degree of turn, I don't think there is one. However, any student who can't consistently recognize and stop turns at will needs to master that skill before attempting RW, which is essentially what coach jumps are. I think the criteria your looking for is consistent competence and demonstration of skill. A single issue on a single jump can be a fluke especially for folks with only a handful of jumps. An unintentional turn on a single skydive that was otherwise exemplary could be excused (depending, of course, on the students recall and analysis). The student your watching out for is the one that keeps making it through his or her levels, but with issues along the way. These are the folks that really need to work things out before moving forward. A "C" student during training can end up an "F" skydiver, and that's what we should all be looking out for. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

You are right I always tell my student that if your in the middle of your pull sequence and you start to rotate stop the rotation and then pull or I will make you redo the level Then should they keep working on stopping the rotation as they blow past their dive plans' pull altitude? Keep trying to stop it as they blow past their hard deck? keep working at it as they see YOU pull your parachute open, keep working at it until they frap in?.. Just playing devils advocate.. and curious at the same time. As for the OP. 2 hours does not seem like that big of a deal. Cut out the long breaks, lunch, and that will cut an hour off. If the student is easy on picking up new ideas, then the instructor can move faster, not having to repeat simple information. I remember my AFF feeling like it was taking forever, even getting bored and daydreaming, because it was at a slow pace for me. I sure they had their reasons for slow pace... let the information sink in before moving on, but not everyone needs that. As I said in this reply http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=3406193;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC; I don't think I need to disclaimer pull priorities in this thread. After all, it's a forum for topics concerning instruction, and I'm sure instructors understand that I'm not advocating taking pull priorities out of the freefall equation. This conversation is about heading control and when it should be a proven skill, not about what a student should do if turning at deployment time. The fact that you would even think that is evidence that the conversation may be over your head. And sorry to say you are wrong about a 2 hour JFC. Even if you take out breaks, questions from slower learners, BS time, and everything but actually teaching of new material, the class will add up to more than 2 hours, probably substantially more. I've taught some fairly quick FJC's, but when you add climb out and exit practice, emergency procedure practice (including hanging harness training), PLF training and practice, dive flow practice, and written test taking and review, it just won't get done in 2 hours. Hell, the stuff I just listed takes over an hour minimum to do, not including the classroom time. Proper instruction teaches to the point of understanding, and must go well beyond the actual presentation of the material. The new breed seems to have trouble with that concept. But hey, we have AAD's so what's the problem? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

You are right I always tell my student that if your in the middle of your pull sequence and you start to rotate stop the rotation and then pull or I will make you redo the level Sorry, I didn't know I needed to disclaimer my comments with a reminder of pull-time priorities. I think everyone understands that in the context of this conversation, we're talking about getting students past the problem of poor heading maintenance, not teaching them to work on it at pull time. That's one of the beautiful things about AFF. Problems like these can be worked out with modified dive flows to improve specific skills. You probably knew that. Nice try, though. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Wow. I asked you what your specific requirements and / or thoughts are about what qualifies as a "spin" and now you're suggesting that I have no idea what the TLOs are for the students I get and whether or not I even have a clue who I should go to at my DZ if I have doubts or questions? I was wondering what your thought process was. I wasn't wondering who my chief instructor was. Actually I didn't say anything to imply that you don't know the TLO's. What I am suggesting is that you - as a USPA coach - should question the abilities of any student that makes it to the coaching phase of the program and still can't hold a heading during deployment. I'm also suggesting that you question the Chief Instructor and the entire program if the students' ability to hold a heading during deployment isn't a requirement to graduate to coach jumps. Being able to maintain a heading (heading control) is important for a great many reasons. That's why the Integrated Student Program requires students to master "heading awareness" in Cat B, and "unassisted freefall with heading maintenance" in Cat C. Also.... From the BSR's (3) All students must jump with one USPA AFF rating holder until demonstrating stability and heading control prior to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation. Since the BSR's require students to demonstrate stability and heading control prior to and within 5 seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation, it would stand to reason that the student should be able to hold a heading during something as simple as deploying a parachute. Your insistence to qualify the student's actions as a "turn" or "spin" is irrelevant. Regardless of the speed of the turn, it's the ability to stop it and re-establish heading control that satisfies the TLO's. Also, the BSR's dictate that students jump with AFF rating holders until - among many other things - they can maintain a heading during unassisted freefall. A program that waives this requirement through ignorance or design is breaking the BSR's (not just recommendations). As I said before, if it is standard practice at your DZ to allow students who can't hold a heading during deployment to move forward to coaching jumps, you should question the entire program and whoever oversees it. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

What was the heading maintenance requirement? Was it 45 degrees? 90 degrees? !80 degrees? If it was specific what was the number? Sorry, I should have looked at your profile earlier. Suffice to say that if students are getting to you for coach jumps, they should be able to hold a heading during deployment as a rule. If they can't, I suggest you let your Chief Instructor know. You do know who your Chief Instructor is, don't you? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I'm not failing anyone. I've been retired from instructing for a while now. For what it's worth, when I was instructing, we had a highly focused AFF program that was growing our ranks like wildfire. That said, I'm also not questioning your judgment or opinion. My point was/is pretty simple. The traditional AFF program had a specific heading maintenance requirement, and that included during deployment by levels 4 and 5. No, an instructor wouldn't typically hold a student back if a "turn" during deployment happened, but a "spin" or inability to hold a heading on repeated jumps would have to be dealt with before moving them on to coaches (not even a formal rating at the time). My question stands - at what point does a jumper have to demonstrate the ability to hold a heading during deployment - if ever? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

I wouldn't say spinning during deployment is more common than holding a heading at all. I've done buttloads of release dives with students from level 3 on up, and very few ended with a student spinning during deployment. In fact, maintaining a heading during deployment is part of the pass criteria at some point in every program (used to be levels 4 or 5 on traditional AFF). Is shrugging off spinning during deployment another *new AFF* teaching technique? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Hey, is it true your first jump course was 2 hours long? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Calibrated eyeballs? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

5 left and cut. You might also try leaving the darn litter box in one place. The kitty probably thinks its getting it right and wondering where the cat litter is. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX