Scrumpot

I've had similar happen once on one of my long draw-string collapsables when leaving the slider above the links and they were able to trail behind so far in the relative wind. Get slinks on your risers so that you can pull the slider all the way down behind your head and securely stow it, #1. #2: This indicates to me that you are using your toggles to hook (toggle-whip hooking)? Bad ju-ju if so indeed, and will kill you soon enough in of itself if not a habit thoroughly broken of! Hope this helps. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Just my opinion, but a properly constructed and (frequently) used (practiced with) hanging harness is MUCH better than this, and certainly is not "nothing at all". I also would NOT use this method in place of "nothing at all" either! It involves pulling handles in inappropriate sequence, and is certainly NOT for jumpers of "all skill levels and experience"! I have done both (jumped one of these similar) and practiced in a hanging harness. I also practice my EP's on the ground before every jump, and again in the plane on jumprun. Every time. I have also had 2 "real" malfunctions and cut-aways. I can tell you from my experience that in order of efficacy (realism in preparation to/for the thing) that the practice experience of each of these methods in order of how well it compares is as follows: 1. The hanging harness 2. A leaning harness 3. Individual ground practice EP's 4. In-plane "handle-touch" EP's run-through 5. Tertiary harness (at least as this one is designed) cut-away. I submit that #5 in fact, with the sytem designed as you have described, is nothing more than a "carnival ride" type thrill, and may in fact even be COUNTER productive. I say this because again, you are reaching for "wrong" handles in a "wrong" sequence, and therefore NOT reinforcing PROPER EP's at all. A properly designed hanging harness (hooking your own gear up to it and using it from it at reserve repack time) and having someone further hanging from you from your legs for example, spinning and disorienting you all the while you then try to find YOUR OWN handles, in the proper order, and execute your EP's in proper sequence and in time, is by far and away THE BEST (and most realistic/close to an actual situation IMHO) practice and preparation you can have reasonably, far and away. Even inducing a mal on your tertiary rig, then cutting it away, going back into freefall, THEN REACHING FOR YOUR BOC does nothing, again just IMHO to reinforce or prepare one for properly executing good EP's for the real thing at all. I submit that instead this is giving you a false sense of "confidence", that I hope does not prove as a result to ever become actually even dangerous for you. - JMO. Not trying to be right or wrong here. YMMV. Just something to "think about" is all. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I am not a big fan of using an audible for the purposes of early conditioning, or training for nearly ANY discipline (including just freefall skydiving) before at least your basic, in the discipline skills have themselves already been learned. Later on, as an either "aid" or back-up perhaps maybe fine (I personally don't use one for even that purpose even now however), but have you ever heard of the Pavlovian response (Pavlov's dogs)? Whatever you decide, please just consider that for yourself as well 1st. Along with some of the other feedback provided in here for you already, I think it is germane. Also, although reading all you can is good, and a good start to even thinking about something, when it comes right down to it, and you feel you are ready to proceed, - please seek out and obtain good, compitent one-on-one IN PERSON coaching with LIVE feedback and interaction being made available to you as well. NO ONE can judge what you are actually doing and give you fully appropriate feedback from any "blind" written forums unequivocally in any case. Hope though, that at least this much is of some help. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

How can cutting away from a tertiary harness, (presumably) going back into freefall, then going for your main be "good practice" at all for the real thing? I'd be extremely leary about this. Unless I've missed something entirely from your description of it, this sounds more to me like a one-man "Mr. Bill", and would in fact do nothing (maybe even LESS than nothing!) to reinforce good EP's, where muscle memory and PROPER PROCEDURES (read: cutaway, then pull RESERVE) are required. Practicing a cutaway followed by reaching for your BOC, to me, seems instead, rather counter to that, don't you think? Might be "fun" and "interesting" (if I understand as described), but seriously nothing more than that! Just another opinion. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Sparky hasn't told you about my twin orange suit (a Sparky-in-training? ) John? (*Darn, can't find any pictures at the moment on my harddrive to post up here, too bad the shots of us from a few yrs back in the tunnel Mike, did not come out ) If you've got your most recent Parachutist though, take a look at page 30, top left corner. What I really want now though is the helmet! Of course I'd prefer the ORIGINAL Sparkster 1st, BACK in the sky with us. He needs to reconsider the "retirement". That's what we've got to start bidding on to encourage. I've got way too far to go to catch up to a living icon like him! ...Mr. Owen? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Why would anyone even WANT to do a HP landing demo into a stadium (of any sort) in the 1st place? Seriously, think about that. For the crowd and the demo value, or for their own (LAME ) EGO??!!! Have you ever been in a crowd where a demo was taking place, and witnessed the reactions and VALUE to those reactions of and to the crowd? I have. Here is what I can tell you about that: The guy who comes in under the biggest "sky-boat" 7 cell, and sinks it in right on target, for a slow (yeah, boring huh?) easy tip-toe landing gets the biggest cheers and excitement of all. The guy who sets up at 600 ft under his sub-100 VX, whips a 270, even to (HIS excitement) perfection gets instead only gasps (at BEST), and then later just comments of aspersion like "woah, that guy was an idiot, I wonder what was WRONG with him"! As others have said, the WHUFFO demo crowd has absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING, let alone "appreciation" (at all) for this, and it serves absolutely ZERO (...LESS THAN ZERO) purpose! and is only a sign of this jumpers LAME selfish perception and inappropriate (entirely) to the task EGO. Not only do everything you can to convince your friend(s) away from this fateful path, but if they do not listen, and intend instead to proceed as you have outlined then YOU need to also have the stones to take your OWN stand. ...Do NOT even participate in such folly. My .02 (where you ASKED!), -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You are right. He didn't say ban, I did. That's also why I put the word ban when I used it in quotation marks. It just seemed (to me ...could most definitely be mistaken) that the poster was making a pretty definitive statement that "the answer" was not to swoop, is all. I know it may seem simplistic, but if that is to be the case, then "the answer" to skydiving fatalities quite simply would also be then, to not skydive at all. Seeing as that is not an option, wouldn't the better solution be to learn the mistakes from the incident itself in an attempt so as not to repeat it (the incident, not necessarily the activity, in total)? That anyway, was my only intended point. In rereading my own post, I suppose it can be taken as "harsh", but that certainly was not my intent. I can both sympathize, and empathize with what this poster is going through, because indeed I have been there. So for any completely non-intentional seeming to jump on anybody's individual "case", I do so sincerely, and humbly, apologize. BSBD, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Although that may be, who then would be angry at you, if you went in someday jumping? You don't want to see or be involved ever, in a skydiving fatality? Then get out of skydiving. Seriously. Because even your very own potential fatality in skydiving is a very REAL possibility every time you step out of that aircraft (or as we have learned again just recently, even just by being IN it ), whether you swoop or not. The only way to "ban" skydiving fatalities altogether, would be to ban skydiving! There are plenty of people out there who already think probably that YOU (even if you don't swoop) are crazy enough "just" by skydiving in of itself. Think about that, and be careful what you call for "bans" on. You call for a ban on swooping, and swooping stops but fatalities still happen (and they WILL), then what is next? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Bill, shouldn't this thread be moved to Safety and Training? It is getting LOST in "General Discussions". Good stuff, and good thread for S&T if you ask me, even though is was already once "spun out" of an incidents thread. Just a thought. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I don't necessarily completely disagree. Put it this way though. You overtly state an ADVERSARIAL relationship with the FAA (our like-it-or not "regulating" body). Then you claim to want "self policing". But you are UNWILLING to actually effectuate that policing. I see that as a contradiction in terms that would instead INVITE them down on us for that very purpose then, and if "allowed" we most assuredly would not like that! In order to be allowed to remain self-policing, we MUST also earn that credibility, which entails I submit, agreeably some pretty tough choices. Just "food for thought" that's all. Seems there are some pretty definitive "nerves" being struck in here, that I am also CLEARLY not privvy to (nor do I want to be). So I will just quietly "bow out" of this one entirely methinks, from here. Hope you all "work it out", whatever the (obvious underlying) issues are, etc. that are going on. Certainly did not mean to step into anything. As snaggle-puss used to say (anyone remember him?)... I am now instead, EXITING.... stage left! ...Or Right evennn.n.n.n....... Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That is not an "apples-to-apples" story (example) and did not put anyone into any relative danger (except maybe the rigger himself, in danger of losing his own ticket)! So that example aside Canuck, you are saying that if you knew of a person, or a situation, that was a REAL and present DANGER to others, and you HAVE already taken as much other "appropriate actions" (like just turning your back on it and walking away?), and exhausted ALL other reasonable avenues, you would just let it drop at that? And "allow" the clear, REAL and present danger to continue? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yes, you probably do. But no Tink, "bad" as you are, in this case (and for "the record") it was not you! -LOL (you opened yourself up for THAT one!) Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Wishful thinking I suppose. Not quite so sure how actually effective though. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Came close once (but didn't) with a GROSSLY NEGLIGENT rigger. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That no doubt works for YOU, but how many of the rest of the jumpers on that load (probably) already have THEIR seatbelts off/REMOVED anyway, WHILE you are doing this? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

For reasons I've noted in my earlier post regarding rapid-exit required emergencies! I've seen instances where jumpers had forgotten their seatbelts having been fastened the entire ride to jumprun, then when the door comes open, try to get up for climb-out and it cause enough "cluster-F**" HAVOC even WITHOUT all the stress of an actual EMERGENCY taking place! No F'in way! Seriously. Think about that, maybe even ESPECIALLY as the pilot (from your perspective). You get into a situation where you want people OUT, and FAST! Not one where you want them to stay put. You want people all caught up in their seat belts, some of whom I will GUARANTEE you, will now as a result "panic", or at the very least grossly impede that smooth exodus you are now no doubt also ANXIOUS to have occur? I don't think that scenario is all that far fetched either. Otherwise, why not just leave belts on, all the way up to jumprun then? Why bother even taking them off at otherwise arbitrary altitudes (like 3k or 4k AGL) AT ALL then? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

So then Jan, do jumpers at Perris account for this, and ammend their ingrained procedures accordingly? Or instead rather, like "lemmings" do they all start just automatically unbuckling and "stretching" about when they hear their all fancy fandango gizmo's (pro-tracks, etc.) "sound off" at 1k? I know what my (limited) experience there tells me & I think I may already have that answer, but you're a regular there, so tell me ...this is a very good observation/point for consideration. Is it? (considered?) So, per AKPilot, maybe SOP 2k for a single (Cesna's) 1k-1.5k for twins? Make sense? But certainly NOBODY thinks it makes any sense in ANY case to have your seatbelt fully fastened still at 3k or even 4k, ...right? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Good one Zig. ...YOU did it AGAIN! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Oops, I did not see these other replies (Ron & Bill's) before having already posted mine. Howver, another consideration (not only loose pilot chute) would be required/sudden emergency exit situation presenting itself at say 3-grand. A pilot commanded "EVERYBODY OUT" at 3-grand and this guy sitting by the door (or anywhere between any other jumpers and the door), and ANY hesitation or problems would potentially wreak HAVOC (can you picture someone either forgetting then trying to get up, and/or then STUCK fumbling for their belt BLOCKING the exit egress??) in such situation! Again, please re-think think this supposed "safety" practice. Feel free to leave your helmet on as long as youd like. But above 1k-1,500 (even door open or NOT), if you are a parachuted jumper, REMOVE AND CLEAR THAT SEATBELT/RESTRAINT! Thank you. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I would have a very serious problem /concern with you then doing that (leaving your seatbelt on), if the plane were above 1,500 ft (then +2,000; 3,000 & 4k??) if the door to that A/C were also opened (as is standard practice on hot summer days for many DZ's) after clearing 1k-1,500. How in your estimation, once above 2-3k AGL do you see yourself (or any of those around you as a result for that matter ) as any "safer" by employing this practice? Please THINK/re-think about this. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Huh? Isn't that the other way around? Don't "zoom" lenses make things look (appear) closer than they really are, and "wide angle" instead in fact: objects are actually "closer than they appear"? In other words, to get that really "tight" shot, on a wide-angle, you in fact need instead to get EVEN CLOSER? That's the way any way, with just basic photography, I've always thought it worked. But I am not a vidiot/regular camera flyer. So maybe the laws of physics regarding ground photography just don't apply, and also change in freefall? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Excellent post, and "challenge" Tom. For those non-pilots out there (including myself), how about a list of good, solid, and APPROPRIATE questions being provided that we can ask? Also, care to provide any insight as to reasonable expectations as to how they should be answered? And/or even "handled" maybe over-all for that matter? For instance, how much "alarm" should be raised if your given DZO/pilot(s) get DEFENSIVE with the jumpers (for even) asking the questions too, or try to be "uppitty"/intimidating in their responses? Having some insight as to reasonable expectations (and foreknowlege) on the responses I think, can probably be of some value too. I know I've already got mine set, and in my situation, I've got a pretty good relationship with my DZ's pilots; but maybe you'd like to further help out a few others too, who may be interested in following up on your "challenge", but might not have that "open" of a relationship, and be as confortable with the approach & "handling"? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Actually Krisanne, yes there are! But then the only other problem from there is the dropzone "down the street" who will then take that jumper in right behind that, for his/her $$. Also (as someone else pointed out) "sad but true". coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Maybe we should create a new rating/certification # here as a result of this? I can actually see this of some value! Something for the newbs to be able to quickly be able to cut the (posting) "wheat from the chaff" so to speak. So long as signed-off by a poster with a "SPNE #" *, no profile information is necessary. It is certified and sanctioned. The character of the poster him/herself anyway that is. By THE "profile nazi" himself, our very own MJOSparky! *(SPNE = Sparky Profile Nazi Exception number) Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Ha! I was thinking the exact same thing Jan. I guess in Sparky-(profile Nazi)-world, there are, apparently, a few exceptions. I do think that you and Zing BTW, just for the record, probably do QUALIFY for those though. I'd have listened to 'im anyway though, even if Michael did "profile nazi" 'im. Eh? Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone