Scrumpot

Okay, agreed. But c'mon now prof, you know what I was getting at here. Let's let the kiddies play with this one a little while first before derailing it all together, shall we? Alright, let's use a slight variation that maybe even you can let slide then, shall we? ....You bring your Cypres 1 equipped rig in for it's repack, and upon opening 'er up, your rigger finds that the Cypres is beyond its 12yr life cycle. He does not have access to another replacement unit for you (even if you've got the $1200 cash on you to shell right out) & of course can not reclose the rig with the EXPIRED Cypres still within it. You want desparately to still jump later that day, or this weekend. Do you: 1. Whine, cry, beg borrow steel to find either another rig you can use with a Cypres in it so you can jump, or "stand down" without one or... 2. Instruct your rigger to pull the Cypres & close 'er up WITHOUT the Cypres in it, and continue to jump it until the next repack Cycle, or you can replace the Cypres at a later date? Better? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Your eyeballs, brains, common sense and experience perhaps? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

This is always an intriguing topic of conversation, and thought process for me to observe. I usually stay completely on the sidelines with it too (lately), and do only just that... observe. I've found that making too much noise in here (in either school of thought camp) doesn't really ever seem to do much good. People usually seem to just have their own minds completely made up. Fixed. Intractible, completely. They will simply defend to their last breath whatever position they have predetermined. So the "arguments" go on, and on. No big deal. Debate over all is also usually good. For those on the side-lines. The observers. Here's a thought, without actually taking a position either way (although trust me, I do have one! - my history for anyone caring to search goes sufficiently far back in here to when I much more often, "used to post" ). This comes from a clinical psychologist involved in a trafic safety study being commissioned to examine the "cultural/behavioral effects of modern safety devices in motor vehicles", often analogized to by many in here, so here goes... Just an interesting point of consideration, and a position I found curious to have been stated - but worthy enough to think about: Instead of airbags now being mounted on the steering wheel of nearly every car now manufactured and driven off of dealers lots every day around the world, how about they had a single sharp 10" stilletto protruding directly at you on them? Do you think you would drive THAT car the same way you are driving the otherwise in every other way, similarly equipped vehicle? Or would you drive this one MUCH MORE CAREFULLY, knowing with fairly assured certainty that if you ran into something/had a collision, that stilletto would skewer you like a stuck pig on a bar-b-q spit? How well would you watch where you were actually going driving the one car over the other, and/or how more relatively "careless" are you with the one with the airbag there to "protect" you? I dunno. Like I say, just something I heard elsewhere that I thought I'd post here, to think about. Blue Skies, "Safe" Jumps, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Here's your best way to answer that (for yourself)... You are about to get on a jump. You do your gear check and absolutely everything is a-ok. Otherwise perfectly ship-shape EXCEPT your Cypres won't turn on. Do you: 1. Leave it off and go ahead with the jump as planned? or... 2. Go "oh F*** ...now I CAN'T jump!" and scratch? And why? Maybe I should make this a "poll"? Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

It's been about a week now, and I seem to no longer be receiving this "subscription". I still get my others just fine though. What has happened? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, --Yada, Yada, Yada. Not being personally disparaging because trust me - I HEAR what you are saying. The problem is, it has ALL been said, oh so often, so many times before. Over, and literally OVER again. Seems to be inescapably indemic to the sport (and these threads - just search 'em and see how much HISTORY you can uncover). For those of us who have "been around for a while" - we have heard, it, we have seen it (and even sometimes LIVED it). Again, over, and OVER! That's why, in of itself too, there seems to be such a disconnect with patience (read: frustration) and tolerance, and/or lack thereof. There always seems to be a new "crop" of better than anyone, - wunderkund, exception to the rules, etc. or what-have-you skydivers and canopy pilots out there, just around the corner - again & again like a never ending revolving door on this subject. I guess we'll never escape that. Those of us that have "been around" now for a while (and probably to our -at the time "elders"- did ourselves in many cases - exactly the same things as you are now, to them then ) just don't KNOW or appreciate your natural talent, or abilities, or ability to translate your experience with OTHER high risk sports or activities so easily and readily into this one. - Right. Those of us who have that other perspective just don't seem to carry the respect either, and patience/tolerance to actually listen to and APPRECIATE those that have come and (trust me - there's not much new here, truly) also done before. There are WAY TOO MANY examples, and links I could post in here, to support this OBSERVATION, sadly. Here is only ONE though, now that I will: THE STORY OF "DUDI" I know that straight out of hand, there will be many "but this is not me" dismissals. Fine, that is not my point, to have this identify specifically and directly with everybody. But I will ask you all this, when you are reading this thread: Consider: This is a jumper who truly thought AND PRACTICED as many of you are saying. He was clearly one who was (supposedly) knowledgable, talented and way ahead of the curve! He knew what not to do too, because he was doing (supposedly) EXACTLY what you are saying. "Did the research, trained specifically" - yada yada yada so that he WAS so different than all us others. Right. He took that path you are now herein at your what, only 65 jumps (yeah, yeah, I know jump #'s all by themself, in of themself, mean "nothing" - HORSE HOCKEY!) advocating. Dudi had @ 500, BTW, FWIW. Do what you want. It is after all, bottom line YOUR CHOICE, and your option. Again, there are just many of us out here who have seen it all before. Really. No SH**. Trust me, your stance unfortunately is nothing all that new, or as un-understandable to us "old farts" as you may think. Yes, we get FRUSTRATED as a result, regardless when we see it all over AND OVER, (and over & over & over & OVER) again is all. Again, there are even just in these relatively "active" forums (let alone the archives) just literally TOO MANY EXAMPLES to possibly begin to even list! THAT, is indeed the sad, and yes (in case you could not tell already by now ) indeed, the FRUSTRATING part. I hope you do well with your progression, and your skydiving "career". I hope it is a LONG and successful one. Sincerely. No matter which your progression path of choice. My apologies to all for the long (and I'm sure - disjointed, as I am so "famously" known for ) rants. The only reason you hear these rants from some of the folks that do still post on here, is because they (I/we) CARE. Be concerned more rather, - when and if we don't. That is all. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That almost sounds good, in theory. However, the point and consideration that you are missing out on (entirely apparently) in this, just on this statement is: Sure, - maybe under closely controlled IDEAL circumstances. Nice open flat landing area around and under you for miles for instance. Always into the 5-10mph consistent winds, etc. - But what happens to you the 1st time you have to land off in a tight spot? Avoid an obstacle? Cross wind because you set yourself up badly, or worse yet downwind? How about coming in on your final and all of a sudden you see another jumper closing right along your path and you need to REACT? What are you gonna do? What's gonna now happen to you? We can tell you. There are way WAY too many incidences in here to CLEARLY illustrate why this is a BAD idea! Not ranking on you, but please - reconsider. Do you know what your limits are? THINK about this. You have what now, 55 total jumps? And you've downsized you say already to a 170? What did you downsize from, just out of curiosity? How much at 55 TOTAL jumps do you think you already KNEW about even your previous canopy? Could you do (and consistently) all the items on BillVon's list? *(hint for you: That's a rhetorical question!) 83kg is more than 180 lbs (like what 182-3?) then add your gear - what do we use now for sandard on that 25lbs? I can tell you that you are over 1.2 W/L out the door. NOT SMART, and then even if you THINK (as you apparently do) that this is okay for you, CERTAINLY NOTHING TO BE ADVOCATED!! Please think, and reconsider. I say this only out of legitimate caring and concern. But even if you don't, please don't come on here and ADVOCATE positions you clearly yourself do not KNOW enough about. - PLEASE! We skydivers can certainly be pig-headed. Comes with the territory in the 1st place. But again, if you would - and even for yourself, PLEASE reconsider now, even your own apparent, current situation too. You'll have PLENTY OF TIME to progress. If you allow yourself to that is. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Broken C or D lines might be okay to land. ...Again, at least for me, ANY broken A's and she's gone! No hesitation, no testing/playing with it, no second thoughts. The problem with A line breakage is what it could do to entire canopy pressurization/inflation as the other remaining pressurized cells now try to accelerate "around" it. Nasty visions of sudden canopy fold-in, collapse, or heck even relatively significant sudden and unpredictable buffetting can, and most likely during flight will occur with A-line breakage. Even if it can fly up high, it is what it does and what happens to you when you get close to the ground with it that is the real problem. ...Solution? Don't take A-line breakage down there to find out. That one is a malfunction. - Chop it. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Pretty much good rule of thumb ....Any A (nose) lines breakage = chop! Like this, it'll slow you down, and get you "thinking" - and that is sometimes the real danger to such "low speed" mals in the first place. They can lull you in. I think this is a good picture to post - wanting to bash the jumper involved or not. How many of you would have immediately chopped something like this? I think this is a great shot of something we don't all just immediately ever think about. Sure - ball of shit ...it's GONE! Spinning line-over, bag-lock, etc. But seriously folks - put the OP and the bashing the shutterbug aside just for a minute. Any chance you think you might hang on to this, mess with it looking up for a bit - to the point that by the time you started thinking about handles, looked down and maybe just found "SHIT - TOO LOW NOW TO CHOP"? Any chance you think THAT is what may have happened to this jumper in this case? Not that it is right, or even right to be jumping camera at only 40 jumps either - I'll agree. But let's take a quick honest look at the value of the posting of this picture and think to ourselves - how easy too would it be for YOU to get "sucked in" by this one? I commend on at least face value the intents anyway, and the courage, knowing yes - HE HAD MADE A MISTAKE - of the injured jumper from this mistake, now being willing to post the picture. Let's not lose the potential lesson to be learned in so quickly dismissing it so out of hand by one-liner "bashing" either. Wow... How's that? Did I actually just say all that? Blues everyone! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

In that configuration ("under a full-face") please just be sure you can remove them quickly in case you need to. A quick temp inversion, some moist air cracked under them just before final and sudden fog-over or freeze (depending on conditions) & you could be totally BLIND on landing if you can't get to 'em. - Just something to consider that you don't want to find you hadn't even thought of before, when you need it (to get to them & CAN'T) all of a sudden. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Look at the responses you've gotten here. I do not want to seem redundant. You've already gotten several very good responses from varying persons, several of whom explain things here in these forums and in writing much clearer than I. Look at each, and see if you can consider and picture / think each more thoroughly through. It is clear you ARE THINKING, and that is good! I commend you for your thoughts and your questions. Now take each as well to your DZ. Ask your DZO/DZM and your pilot. Are these skilled, able and experienced people who you trust? Ask them why, and for their particulars of why they operate and use the procedures they do. Ask openly, so as to LEARN, not to be challenging. LISTEN, consider, - take ALL into account and see if you can then come to more of your own thoughts or even conclusions. Do not "rush" the result to have to be right - right away in here either. We'll still be here to debate with you in say a few days, or a week, or whatever it takes for you to simply consider, and discern a little more. Heck, it's easily taken me SEVERAL weeks in here when I've gotten truly embroiled in a real debate to change my mind (I was gonna say for people to realize I was right - but that might not be entirely PC - or CORRECT! ). Looks like there've been several good "answers" (or at least responses - depending on how you would like to take them) posted already here for you. What do you think? Hope they've been of some help. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

1st of all... Listen to your instructors first and foremost. They were there! They know you, and the situation. No matter what is written here, - none of us really do. Although you can get good advice, you can just as easily get bad. Mine included. ALWAYS take back to your instructors, anything you get here, for more thorough further consideration and appropriate feedback. That said, from what I read out of your account - you looked at your cut-away pillow and pulled it, right? Only a natural reaction then if so, to "wait-n-see" what happens from there. There are several different training methods, and again, I certainly don't want to interfere with any you may be receiving - so take this back to your instructors for QUALIFIED feedback - however, even with either one, or 2-handed operations (EP's training), often times it is trained to: 1. look cut-away, 2. grab cut-away (either one OR 2 hands), ...but then to next LOOK (and lock eyes on) SILVER - and only then to pull cut-away IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED by PULL SILVER. This way, it ingrains in you an entire EP operation - from start, to FINISH; which if practiced, should become automatic - even if you have already felt your reserve deploy via the RSL. Make sense? Congratulations on getting that 1st "big one" out of the way. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Although I was tempted to post something strikingly similar, - I doubt very highly that sarcasm will be of any help at all to this brother jumper. I, for one, am at least open to giving him the benefit of the doubt. Soon enough though, I suppose we will see if that was warranted. "Standing by"..... Blues! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That is great Gonzalo! ...Seriously. I am glad that your "agenda" and efforts have apparently bourne some results for you. Even though at times, it did not seem as though you were open minded enough to more fully consider, and take into full account, some of the OTHER perspectives, potentially important considerations, and viewpoints/input that some others were still, trying to impart to you. Maybe now that this is apparently "done" for you though, (congratulations again!

"Beating RW fliers to the opening point" in of itself should be of absolutely no concern whatsoever, so long has you have adequate HORIZONTAL separation! Why do you think this is unsafe? In fact, unless your jumprun is routinely "downwind" (as opposed to into the relative uppers) your getting "down"quicker, and straighter (with less "drift"), so long as you have aleady given adequate exit separation in the first place - will give you even GREATER horizontal separation as a result. Clearly, you need to. ...Asking these types of questions though, then considering it further is a great start! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

So, what all is exactly so terribly wrong with flying a 190 at say 1.1-1.2 for a while anyway? Seriously. Does it really truly so totally, totally suck all that bad (really) in the 1st place? Think about 1st any (relevant) reasonings you may want to even downsize in the 1st place. At only 25 jumps now, - if you agree with Bill Von's list (as you've already said you do), then you don't even have enough jumps TOTAL under your belt, to have even completed attempt #1 on each of those maneuvers, let alone having "mastered" any of them. Just another angle "food for thought" is all. There are lots of pressures (peer and otherwise) to quickly downsize in this sport. But in the end analysis - for you - is it really worth it? You'll have plenty of time to progress (ie: downsize if you want to) - If you allow yourself that time, that is. Lots and lots (unfortunately ) in here do not end up allowing themselves that time. You've shown inkling of being a bit smarter than that already though. Hope you can maintain that level of true courage, and restraint. Do what is right, for you. Hope this helps. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Based upon just this one posted pic, you appear clearly, quite talented! I, for one, would be most happy to shell-out for quality (as it appears you have!) original, "full-size" oils, etc. Such art of the subject matter (skydiving) is truly otherwise hard to find, indeed! There is plenty of "schlotsky" out there for sure, and "gimmick" kinda stuff, but true ART? - Rare indeed. I would love to see more! Let me know when you get your "store" set up. Good luck! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I know of a few dropzones that do this as a SOP. Each of them that do, has their own specialized reasons, reasoning and/or conditions, it seems. Can you tell me, does your DZ routinely fly its jumprun either: - Into the (uppers) wind - "Downwind" - or, - Crosswind ? Have you discussed with them (the DZO, the DZM, the pilot) why it is, for them, they practice this, and their reasoning? Just out of curiosity, if you have, I'd be interested in hearing it. Thanks. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Well, ya... but hej ust simply obviously - won't listen to it. Either by sheer ignorance, or more rather, by self-serving purpose and design! The latter however, even if so, actually scares me even worse, taking the collective string of his statements in here. It has become clear (as others have noted) what has happened, but this guy apparently CHOOSES to ignore it all, and THAT is dangerous. I was at first thinking, this guy truly innocently just does not know what it is he is saying, and implying. Maybe his cause is at least noble, that he is looking for support for what he sees and feels is a danger - tandems exiting anything but last. If that were the case, fine - he may just LEARN. Then, I thought no, he must be nothing but a TROLL - and you know what they say about feeding the trolls! But after re-reading this entire thread, I am now coming to the conclusion that he is neither - and THAT IS A CONCERN. Legitimately. How can someone so clearly CHOOSE to not "hear" ANYONE? Is he "playing" us? I think that HE THINKS SO. But the sad part, is that in the end, it is he that is unfortunately playing himself, and losing out on an opportunity to pick up on important salient concepts it is clear, he just does not grasp. I would not even WASTE MY TIME by re-posting in this thread here again, if it weren't for the comments from OTHERS that the reparte has helped THEM consider some things! He says that absolutely nobody even asked him about wind speeds or direction etc. until DougH's post #68, as if he is now "calling us all out" or something with this, and that was his real intent all along. However, the thread shows that he didn't even ASK anyone how long he SHOULD HAVE waited until his post #35 - which was responded to actually quite clearly, and quite right away, by Bill Von's post only 3 more down at post #38! But like any other of the posts he does not "like" in here, he either tries to attack what he thinks somehow are other jumpers motives (when it is clear HE is the only poster in here with an agenda), or he simply IGNORES it entirely. Except for the OTHERS who have apparently gotten something out of this thread, this guy is maddeningly untenable! Yes, we are all wasting our time with this one. Except to the extent that it is IN PUBLIC. And the public can much more clearly see what is going on in here. So bottom line then? - THANK YOU, "Aguila", after all, for playing! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Hello Aguilla, Why would I prefer not to answer, and why would you try to pre-suppose that? I do not get on here very often lately is all, and in fact this is the very 1st I've seen of your reply to me, and the very 1st time since I posted that I've been back on, so my apologies if it has seemed delayed. I clearly could not tell you how many seconds you waited, - you did not post that. What are you looking for from me here, a guess? But I do not need to guess. The bottom line is that if you found yourself in freefall directly above the tandem's opening canopy, then it clearly and factually (in of itself ...self-evidently) was not enough! Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to attack you, or "blame" you in any way. Merely trying to get you to recognize something here. It is clear you have an "agenda" with your posts, and that is okay, I respect that. I also apologize if my earlier post made it seem as if I am either trying to discredit you or attack your position, as again that is NOT my intent. In fact, I do not necessarily disagree with your agenda, - even if you are still, in my opinion, missing my point. If you would like for me to give you an estimate of how much time you should have left between your exits, I would in fact be happy to. Or you yourself could do that by downloading the prof's "simplified" separation chart, which I think someone else has already posted a link to in here. Before I can though, what I will need from you is: - Jumprun windspeed and direction? - Groundspeed? - And, was your jumprun direction? -Into the wind, downwind, or crosswind? My point to you Aguila is simply this: The tandem pair, under drouge (presuming a "normal" routine FF), upon exit will "drift" relatively SIMILAR to ANY medium-slow falling body in front of you - including for instance a pair of belly fliers that you may exit behind (solo?) and I'm presuming you would not have similar "problems" with. Yes, they may open higher than you want to, and sure, you should be aware of that, but ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT THAN THAT 2-WAY BELLY GROUP - YOU SHOULD BE UNDER NO GREATER "RISK" TO BEING DIRECTLY ABOVE THEM (as you state) AT 4k AGL, IF YOU HAD PROVIDED ADEQUATE (and NOT dissimilar at all to the 2-way belly example group) SEPARATION. Which clearly, in this case - regardless of "blame" is what just self-evidently did not happen. Again, I am just trying to get you as well, to realize something here. It will be important to you even if tomorrow, your DZ reverses its policy, and immediately begins putting tandems out last, as you want. Clearly, (lack of) HORIZONTAL SEPARATION was your primary cause to this "near miss" here. And unless the separation (ie: exit SPACING) considerations ALSO change or get more accurately considered as well, is something that regardless, is doomed to recurr! Maybe just not with a tandem is all. Please don't fool yourself, and consider THIS AS WELL is all - even though, you clearly do have "an agenda". - OK? I hope this helps, and that you can open your mind just a little bit too, and take into account OTHER FACTORS without being adversarial with everyone that otherwise doesn't just hands-down, completely simply just "rubber-stamp" your position. Your dialogue is a good one. Please don't discount that others input may be just as valid as well. If we all just immediately agreed, and didn't have other perspectives and input/opinions to give, then what good would having the dialogue at all for any of us, really be? Blue Skies, and Safe Jumps! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

No, your case is that you just did not allow enough time before making your exit for proper horizontal separation, PERIOD. Your "case" could have happened just as readily if you had been exiting behind either this tandem OR an RW group for that matter. You seem to keep missing this one most critical point, no matter who, or how many people are trying to tell it to you! You do not need more separation from a tandem any more than any other group at all (and because tandems can not track potentially up the line of flight underneath you, perhaps even less - but that is a whole other "can of worms") - Just CORRECT and PROPER separation between every (and ANY) group. Which bottom line, it is clear YOU did not provide here, ...in this case. Please step back, take a breath, and more objectively consider this. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The date is emblazoned right on the intro/title to the vid itself: 6/31/04 (or 31-6-04 for those "across the pond"). What does that tell you? Hmmmm.... now.... let's see.... coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Pssst, hint: "Babe"... You want a better reply to Bill if you have taken offense at what you see as a blanket implication in his previous post on the subject matter (of planning for separation)? Instead retort by asking him how many jumpers at Perris on jumprun still espouse "the 45' rule". -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

On that 1st jump of the day Brad, did you get a pre-jump brief of what those "uppers" were, and what course the A/C was going to fly in relation to them? What was the initial "strategy"? Do you KNOW? "The prof" here is worth listening to in this case! NOT an excuse! Please, "HEAR" what the prof (kallend) is trying to say to you. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

#1. Creating a descriptively labeled "clicky" can help some of us decide whether we need to (copy, shell out to open new window, paste, then go to) read the thread you are referring to. Example: Recent Multiple AAD fire thread in Incidents #2. Pretty good idea! Carry on. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone