Zenister

some days i hate internet forums, no one seems to really read for content, or perhaps the content isnt written well enough express the idea in a way that is easily grasped.oh well no i will kill to protect my freedom, i'm sorry you dont feel the same way. good thing your forefathers did eh? having fun guys? cool i hope so, point and ridicule all you like, it really means nothing to me. knew i should have left this thread alone, all the childish mocking was bound to occur, but somehow i expected skydivers to understand the meanings of the words freedom and self determination better than your average wuffo i sincerely hope i never have to prove how serious i am about defending my freedom, and that none of you are ever in the position of trying to take it from me. I’m not making some bold pose as you assume, or trying to be "billy bad ass". I’m simply expressing my desire to be left alone to risk my life in any manner I chose. Lou assuming i'm back from Kuwait/Iraq by then i'll be at Perris for memorial day, come out and play and we can discuss this over a beer or two. assuming they arent illegal by then, you never know with all these people around who seem to think that freedom is something unimportant, and that a willingness to defending it is a joke. KMC i'm sorry if the people around you habitually say things they dont mean, it seems to have made you believe everyone is like that. and now back to the jeers ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

no i said i will kill & die rather than surrender my freedom, if i were afraid to die i would not live my life in the manner i do. leave me alone (which is all i wished for from the begining) and we will never have any issues. Come to take that which is most precious to me and blood will (regretfully and unnecessarily) flow. I understand very well you have a job to do, hopefully you knew the risks when you signed up for it. its not a threat at all, its a statement of independence. somthing far to many modern people seem to lack. I do not infringe on the freedom of others and i expect the same consideration from the state as well as from other individuals. Unfortuantely the state does not care about individual rights that go against their doctrine. "those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither" most people fail to see how much freedom they give away daily. indeed when it comes to life and death, there is no such thing as fair, assuming that there is will only remove you from the game that much more quickly. when you stare death in the eyes you'd best be ready to kiss her

i think that might be the one..had questions like "ever had a household pet walk on you during sex?" etc. ran into it first in jr high in germany and then again in high school in AL.. yeah it was pretty offensive in AL too... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

sometimes, yes.

same test thats been going around for years, uesd to be called the "purity test" in jr high.. good thing i dont have any need for your mythological construct 219 ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

then you bust their ass for DUI and vehicular manslaughter, just as you would if they were under the influence of anything else. just to restate a point early on, the individual should be held accountable for their actions no matter what else may have influenced them. no more "but he was drunk/high/abused as a child/came from a broken home/mentally insane" no excuses give the rights and responsibility back the individual everyone with a gun is potentially a killer, everyone with a car is potentially a speeder but until they break a law that interferes with the rights of another the government should BTFU --------------------------------- Jfeilds no at all i fully understand the implications of that statement. My personal freedom is more important than their lives. After all i dont live their lives, i live mine and will not ever do so from a cell. when their freedoms imperil mine, mine take precedence. In their role as LEOs they are not acting as individuals but instead as agents of the state attempting to take away my personal freedom. Equality is a meaningless term if someone is losing their ability to make decisions by the actions of the state i totally disagree as to your view of the 'only avenue" we are participating in an ongoing political experiment, some parts of that experiment are incredibly good, some are rather pathetic. The continual decline of the individual to determine his or her own fate without (what i find) unnecessary interference from the state (whos sole responsibility should be to protect us from each other) is one of the pathetic. I am further not interested in becoming a “better citizen” of any society that thinks that its will is more important in determining my path than my own. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

well that is certainly your right, and if you discount the value of Art, I’m not about to try and convince you otherwise. (I enjoy teaching but expect students to seek knowledge as well I’m not here to feed them) and i imagine the majority of the forum (should I start a poll?) will agree that art, literature, and music are very important things in the development as a culture and the individual education process and that any individual who willfully chooses to ignore those disciplines is missing a great deal of life and experience on this planet. why would you alter your mind? lots of reasons. you only experience reality thru your senses. All input into those senses is interpreted by the mind. You cant really alter your senses terribly much (when functioning) they work in essentially the same no matter what your physical location or condition. If your mind always functions in the same predicable patterns to the information conveyed by your senses, you are that much less likely to be creative or to expand the human experience. Drugs offer another (admittedly treacherous) path of self-exploration. They alter (not necessarily degrade) your usual reactions to the people, places and things (the World) around you. Ever get in a fight (while drunk) with someone you were friends with over nothing? How about become friends with someone (again while drunk) who you hated when you were sober? That’s alcohol changing your reactions to your environment. Diversion into personal testimony disregard as it has little scientific basis, just an observation about altering your mind … I once watched one of my students (who was an average fencer. Btw fencing is totally about timing and distance with technique a close third) literally walk thru the salle for 3 rounds playing “king of the hill” while so stoned you couldn’t see the whites of his eyes...everyone thought he would be an easy mark (he usually was, constantly pulled a counter-six when you beat his blade) and was giving him shit (including me as coach) about coming into class blazed. But something (relaxation, detachment, lack of concern) made his parries effortless (and impeneratable. I had to resort to “sneaky old man” tricks to hit him) and his disengage and ripostes devastatingly quick and accurate..(it felt like trying to parry the air)..did it make him a better fencer? In a way yes, lots of things “clicked” for him that night and he carried many of them into latter lessons overall. (that predicable parry became a great second intention) Fluke? Perhaps, maybe that was his night to break a plateau and he would have done so anyway, or it was a once in a life time moment that he could never repeat again, or perhaps being stoned gave him the mental relaxation to let his training take over..who knows.. the point is that mindset is a very important part of performance in nearly all endeavors and anything that may alter your mindset toward the goal you are reaching for should be explored All journeys can be learning experiences or they can be a means of escape. That choice is up to the individual. Do you want someone telling you when and where you may and may not walk? Isnt it all about collecting as many breath-taking experiences as you can before the game is over? hmm you know i was done with this discussion, but its become interesting once again... btw i seem to remember reading that Chesty drank alot of coffee. That makes him a drug user as a side question (i'm a pretty big fan of Gen. Puller myself) Which do you think he found more valuable, more important. Doctrine or individual intuition? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

well i'll just say don’t bother to read much literature, view much art or listen to alot of music if you discount drugs as "useless" because a great deal of what is recognized as masterpieces in each genre were created by habitual drug users many drugs are used simply as methods of altering your perception and therefore your perspective, they are by no means the only way, but they are a fairly consistent method, they change the chemical makeup of your brain and in many ways allow you to "be someone else" and see things from a perspective different from your own and sometimes differing from any ever expressed by another artist.. now, all that is subjective and personal, there is no scientific studies to back that statement, but there are lots of critical reviews of artists (Picasso, Van Gogh, Cezanne as a few examples) during their drug use period and not, with very few exceptions their best, most acclaimed work was created during their times of heavy use. Literarily S.T. Coleridge, Shelly and Byron are all examples of Romantic writers who heavily indulged and the musical examples are to numerous to begin to count. Drugs can help to create great art, by taking the artists outside themselves. Of course it can also be argued that depression, pain and suffering also help to create great art and are often reasons why someone would begin to take drugs in the first place. this does not imply that taking heroin will turn your fingerpaintings into masterpieces or help fix the fact your completely tone deaf, but drugs are a very prolific source for many creative types and have been recognized as such by “more enlightened cultures” (those that don’t care what you do to yourself) they are also a means of relaxation and release, just as cigarettes and alchol for many people. Its really all a matter of timing and moderation, as with everything in life... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

doubt if you wish, but i will make anyone who threatens to take my freedom pay for it with their blood. my "party line "is based on my own investigation into the issues. until someone presents me with something else supporting the (currently weak & outdated) "research" the government uses to justify their hardline view, i see no reason to change it. I do maintain an open mind on the issue, however i have yet to hear a single argument presenting ANY new information. my research is subject to the same critical review as any other and it is that criticism that shows how flawed the tests used to justify the current laws were. If you go into an experiment with a conclusion you simply cannot be objective, and THERE HAVE BEEN NO THIRD PARTY OBJECTIVE STUDIES DONE ON THE EFFECTS OF MARIJAUNA. Our government will not even entertain the idea much less fund it, and without government funding very little research EVER takes place. i sure you remember what the 'real' prime principle of the US government is? how about "money talks" actually i do a great deal more than "complain" but the current system gives no real recourse other than civil disobedience. I vote, but one vote (or even a minority of votes)means nothing against the mass who votes the govts party line. BTW i guess youve ignored all the state votes that have called for decrimalization, just as our federal government has. as to its place on the DZ i agree, as a business the dropzone is most vulnerable to government sanctions and can never take a position contrary to the states and remain economically viable. For that reason, and that reason alone, I agree it should be kept off. Given the choice between drugs and skydiving i will gladly chose the sky, but i still maintain this is at root a self determination issue. if those children grow up to think the government is always right and always has their best interests in mind then they are severely deluded sheep. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

evil. subliminal. chicky. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i assume you speak from personal knowledge? so, you think i swim to saudi arabia and back twice a month? really? you travel to saudi for the same reasons you skydive?? its all flying right?? :rollseyes: actually i will not go to jail for any reason. ever. I will die defending my freedom from those who would take it from me no matter what I “did”. (even if they are "just doing their job") the only box any government will ever put me in is a coffin and they will bury many of their minions with me when they do… and yes I do a great deal to help my friends save themselves (note the syntax there its real important) what I don’t do is attempt to determine their path for them. If they chose to starve themselves to death, I have to respect that choice, no matter how misguided I think it is… Q: would you physically stop a friend from jumping a canopy you think he/she isn’t ready for??? Take their canopy away and lock them in the hanger?? “but they might die!!” american independence (as individuals) has become a pale shadow of what it was for our founding fathers. That so many have bought into the herd mentality (ie sheep) sickens me, and is greatly responsible for the continued decline of individual rights and FYI. 8 members of my close and extended family (including my father) are law enforcement, I have talked with them repeatedly about these issues (as part of my continuing search for answers) and the majority of them agree with me, at least philosophically, but are bound by their jobs to enforce the law. (Although there are laws that are regularly ignored by LE officers since they don’t always have personal political agendas like drug laws do) In order to change those laws I would have to spend my time convincing the herd that my view is better for them thereby adopting the role of shepherd, something the govt will take exception to, particularly when my view differs from doctrine and would undermine years of media conditioning on the part of the government that is the reason that it hasn’t been changed, and that the government refuses to even study the issue, or fund any third party that whose results might contradict doctrine btw posting in this thread has taken a sum total of about an hour of my time. If laws were as easily changed as they are made, a few months of my time would be sufficient, however we all know that is not the case. when in fact all I wish is to be left alone to do as I please to and with myself, just as they would if they looked above the grass and their “eat, sleep, work, breed, die” mentality. there is only one reason that justifies breaking any law. that is that you find it to be wrong. if you find a law unjust and yet you still obey it, you are a coward. Equally so if you know an action needs to be taken and yet do not because “the law says I cant” Ps. Go read the ACTUAL laws in your state sometime. I imagine you’ll be surprised to see how many outdated laws you break everyday that have never been changed… so to summarize and for all the lurkers and those who didn’t get it the first several times. The real issue is not drugs at all. It’s the ability of an adult to determine their own path, have control over their own body and end or imperil their existence in any manner they chose that does not violate that same right for another. this applies to drugs, sex, skydiving,handguns, BASE, snowboarding, skiing, rock climbing, zoning laws…ie. EVERYTHING. Continue to argue if you wish, but at least have the consideration to go look for source material on the subject (and cross reference sources, remember good science doesn’t start with a conclusion) agreeing with an opposing position does not make you sheep, but mindlessly repeating the party line without doing some research of your own certainly does. im very glad you will fight for my right to say what i wish, and i will continue to fight for your right to DO what you wish so long as it does not interfere with the rights of another. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

not to be to offensive, but this is exactly the point, you really have no idea what your talking about, you've accepted the governments word that its evil and ran with it. an open independent search for the truth is also apart of self determination. terribly sorry to hear that your son was shooting heroin, its a nasty drug (IMO) i know several people who abuse it and will be sad when i lose them, everyone of them thinks i'm nuts for risking my life skydivingbut other than helping them try to quit (when/if they want to) and encouraging them to do so, it is immoral for me to violate their freedom for "their own good" to make them stop. they are not my children and are responsible for their own lives and so should be able to risk them in any manner they choose. that is the only "justification" necessary. Its my life, my body. I am an adult. if i decide tonight that i only really need 8 fingers i can lose two and the government shouldnt interfere or even care, so long as i dont try and cut off yours too. Btw. Since the sheep out number the free thinkers there are NONE of my representatives in power. Politics is a popularity contest, and the sheep vote in the manner they feel makes them safe. The government also conveniently provides all the answers for them, mark your X and move on, no reason to really think about any issues.. "We've taken care of everything The words you hear the songs you sing The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes ... Never need to wonder how or why .... Oh what a nice contented world Let the banners be unfurled Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand" Democracy is tyranny by the masses this needs repeating again "of this I am certain, that in a democracy, the majority of citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority. . . and that oppression of the minority will extend to far greater numbers, and will be carried on with much greater fury, than can almost ever be apprehended from the dominion of a single sceptre. In such a popular prosecution, individual sufferers are in a much more deplorable condition than in any other." Edmund Burke ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i do break any and all laws i find to be unjust. Wither an action is legal or not is pretty far down on my decision tree. Civil disobedience is meaningless if you continue to follow the laws you find intolerable. Phil is correct. mindlessly toeing the line is NOT what our country is about. Self Determination is. Wuffos lack the same understanding of skydiving that those who do not partake do of MJ. More people have died skydiving this year than have EVER been killed by MJ use, (the LD 50 of MJ is something like 2 1/2 tons over a 2 hour period, simply not possible) one is legal, the other is not. why? if the government undertook an ad campaign with as many exaggerations, half-truths, straw man and slippery slope arguments against skydiving as is does against MJ our sport would be illegal too, and we would have to deal with EVERY idiot on the street mindlessly repeating how "they cant even breath in freefall and its to dangerous for normal people to consider...all those airheads doing bandit jumps need to be locked away so they cant hurt themselves..lets confiscate their rigs and houses just to show how serious we are…." as to glue, it has none of the same effects of MJ. might as well ask why you dont spend your money on commercial airlines instead of jump tickets. its all flying right?? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

believe me I AM glad i live where i do, and give a great deal of my time and energy to defending our way of life, including fighting against its government when/if it becomes oppressive. i am bashing him for the view that it is the governments responsibility to protect us from ourselves, to govern the manner in which we use and abuse our own bodies. in my view it is the governments job to provide accurate consistent information available on the risks involved in any activity and then to leave the citizens to decide on their participation (and possible death) in such activities. this applies to everything even such ridiculous ideas as mainlining a common house hold cleaners. its certainly not my thing, and i'll gladly tell anyone i know of doing so how stupid i think they are, but i will not stop them from doing it, its not my life, or my right to interfere. nor is it the governments. people may like to turn a blind eye to it, but the world is becoming a very crowded place. If an individual wants to increase his or her chances of leaving sooner (in any manner that does not infringe on others ability to live and die as they wish) the government should just BTFU. you may consider drug users to be darwin candidates, but remember to the mass of wuffos, we are too. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

gotta love america, where the admittedly ignorant opinion has just as much value as one who has actually studied the subject under discussion. exactly why democracy sucks still missing the point arent you? i guess you dont have any issues with the govt tell you what you can and cant do with/to yourself. I'll make sure when i'm fighting to keep the ignorant sheep from banning skydiving, or base jumping or freeclimbing (or any of the other "useless" things that you can kill your self doing) to exclude you from the list who wants to be able to determine their own fate. I don’t give a rats ass if you want to mainline Drano (its legal so its cheap) its your life, lose it in the manner you chose to… ***You seem to think you are the only person that can think for himself. That's hilarious and shows your own ignorance and elitist attitude. If you want to debate then debate the facts and quit acting like you are something special. Every pimple faced kid goes through a rebellious period. It seems like some of us can't seem to grow out of it. not at all I know quite a number of people who do and I am blessed enough to call them friend. i just have no respect for those who obviously dont. But hey if you feel the need to live like SHEEP frightened of the night without a govt to sheperd you, then please do. you should be free to make that determination for yourself as well. I'm sorry you gave up trying to change the things you thought were wrong with the world, some of us have more courage and persistence at any rate i'm done with this discussion. far to much government propaganda & invalid arguments being regurgitated to have an honest debate. Go look at ALL the "facts" (from all sides, not just the one you support) then come back when your opinion is more informed. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

In some ways, just about all 12-year-old boys are darwin candidates. That's why they have parents. I remember a friend telling me about shooting arrows up in the air as high as he could, and then trying to catch them on a board held over his head. Wendy W. exactly. it pretty amazing i didnt start skydiving sooner after being caught one day jumping off the roof with a Cargo Canopy's pilot chute...didnt tell her i already made 5 before..i wonder if those count as B's? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

usually the small children the villagers leave at dropzones for us so we dont wander into town and disturb the peace ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

have fun mon..in 1 hour i get to watch 2 of Eloys otters vanish that way as well....luckily we have more

nice try but it goes back farther...check Astarte also Ishtar not the dudely moore bomb Babylonian, several centuries older than your OT much less your christos, and you borrowed a number of themes and mythos from them. And actually she marries the new spring revitalizing him (your resurrection theme is based on this tale) each year. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

April was just showing me some pictures yesterday of her and mike playing around on their heads blue skies mike. the desert isnt the same without you ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

not so because your average citizen also doesnt think for themselves, they just accept what they are told. ie "its bad. why would i want to try it? or want it do be legal? damn dopers all need to die!!" (ok that last bit was a joke, but I have actually run into (here and else where) the attitude that anyone who disagrees with the govt position is a "doper" and therefore an evil second class citizen whos rights are unimportant... the point still is not about drugs at all. Its about self determination, and governmental control over YOUR body. Why is your view more objective? Why is it that by presenting a viewpoint different than your he is blithely quoting ancient govt. propaganda? There are arguments on both sides of the fence, what is it that makes yours right? because the majority of his argument is echoed in the lovely (and rather old) propaganda film "Reefer Madness" you should watch it sometime, its so far from reality as to be cartoonish. Mine is more objective because i have studied the subject with an intent to understand as opposed to an agenda to demonize. I did not have a conclusion when i began to ask question and look for answers. no i stand by my original statement i KNOW what i eat, and ingest, and am FAR more picky about both than your average citizen. I read labels and pay attention. What many people fail to understand is nearly EVERYONE IS A DRUG USER. They just dont think about them in the same way as illegal drugs because the havent been exposed to years of propaganda telling them about how horrible an aspirin addict is..and so their daily drug use isnt thought of as bad because the government doesnt tell them it is.. ever see anyone drink 8 cups of espresso? Wanna jump with them? Anything can be misused and abused. you can die from to much water (it actually intoxicates you too, rendering you unable to function normally and yet looks a lot like the opposite, dehydration) should we regulate DHMO now? Its easy to write an argument expressing how “evil” it is too…been done many times…and many sheep screamed for its banning, all because they were to stupid to think beyond the rhetoric "of this I am certain, that in a democracy, the majority of citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority. . . and that oppression of the minority will extend to far greater numbers, and will be carried on with much greater fury, than can almost ever be apprehended from the dominion of a single sceptre. In such a popular prosecution, individual sufferers are in a much more deplorable condition than in any other." Edmund Burke ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

from your study hmm remember about the illegal part of this? yes drug dealers are very interested in getting you hooked on something else so as to suck more of your money out..remember this isnt a moral or individual rights issue to them its all economics.. legalization would remove exactly this enviroment and move the control of its sale and distribution to only slightly less nefarious masters, our goverment however control and regulation methods such as those used with alcohol and tobacco are a far better answer than creating a criminal class for anyone who wishes to indulge themselves said study is also rather short on facts as well but some points you aparently didnt note in your hasty defence and also as i said before, I'll gladly wager my total drug use (of all types is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than your average citizen. I cant say i have more experience than “everyone else” :rollseyes: but i HAVE looked at the issues with a far more objective view than those who blithely quote ancient govt propaganda and you'd have to pick and individual to compare to anyway, sweeping statements such as "everyone else" are disingenuous and add nothing to the discussion side note: eating 12 eggs a day is proven to be very bad for your weight and cholesterol levels, its not difficult to imagine scenarios where a lack of fitness on your part creates a hazardous environment for others and yet eggs are a staple of the american diet and obesity is not a crime.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

and this is one, unless you have some actual evidence to support your position you are basing your assertion solely on anecdotal accounts "some one i saw” 2? 10? 300? out of total number of uses? and users? over how long? what other chemical dependence issues might your subjects have had? History of mental illness? as i said there has been no rigorous study of these effects. You are quoting the “gateway drug argument” which also a baseless assertion without evidence to back it. This has always been a "slippery slope" argument repeating it again does not make it more valid ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

this is the "slippery slope" the entire gateway argument is a fallacy this is also the assertion i wish you to back with objective scientific evidence. do a real search and look at the sources of the "research" available before you repeat the same goverment misinformation and ridiculous distortions of reality attributed to MJ in [scary music]"Reefer Madness"[/scary music] ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

please show studies that back this assertion. as i said earlier the majority of the information used to justify the govts position on MJ are 30+ years old this is the "slippery slope" fallacy as well btw. preach on!! i chose not to be a shepard as well spending my life trying to convince sheep that what is best for me is also best for theml..one vote is pointless in the face of the 1000s who cannot think for themselves to qoute Blake out of context "one rule for lion and lamb is oppression.." ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.