Robert99

Okay, Olemiss let's make sure the future researchers get the correct information. Using your numbers: 1. The airliner was squawking 3100 for the entire time of the hijacking. That means from Portland to Seattle and then to Reno. The hijack code in 1971 was neither 3100 nor 3500. An air traffic control radar typical made six rotations per minute which means the airliner's transponder was pinged ever 10 seconds per radar. There is no public documentation that SAGE was ever involved in tracking the airliner. 2. Correct. 3. Georger told me back about 2010 that he had information from one of the crew members of Himmelsbach's helicopter that they always stayed on the west side of Portland and flew up to Woodland and then returned. [NOTE: Georger will deny this.] Himmelsbach lived on the southwest side of Portland. And in view of the bad weather that night, he had to be very close to his neighborhood. The T-33 stayed on the west side of Portland. Persons at an airport on the east side of Portland said, according to Georger and which he will probably deny, that the airliner did not pass on the east side of Portland. Addendum for Olemiss. Why does the FBI refuse to release the Seattle ATC radio transcripts? Why has Soderlind's flight path calculations, made from the FDR information and presumably discussions with the flight crew, not been released? Do these actions suggest that the so-called FBI flight path is incorrect? Is the FBI just doing a CYA action on the flight path?

FlyJack continues to wrongly insist that the winds at 10,000 feet were shifting around from the southeast to some place in the west. The winds were consistently from the southwest (245 degrees true) at altitude based on the NOAA balloon data and the predicted winds aloft provided by the FAA for the time the airliner was in the Seattle/Portland area. When the airliner reached the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection it had reached its western most position and turned to slightly east of true south. Soon after passing the Malay Intersection the airliner left V-23 and flew direct to the Canby Intersection area. It was never more than a few miles off V-23 and then only for a few minutes. And if the airliner flew directly from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would have flown almost directly over Tena Bar. There are several factors that have not been previously discussed on what is now call the Western Flight Path and I will try to post something on those in the next week or so.

FlyJack, you have a couple of points correct but Georger will never believe it. As has been pointed out on this site and Shutter's site for about the last 14 years, the money found at Tena Bar had to start its journey at a higher elevation than Tena Bar (and I don't mean the airliner). In all probability, the money found at Tena Bar was still in a damaged money bag, and probably attached to what was left of Cooper's skeletal remains and the parachute equipment when it was deposited at the location where it was later found. The money came out of the bag, but the rest of Cooper and the parachutes went on downstream. Water runs downhill and there was no flotation capability of the other items. The above has been elaborated on in great detail over the last 10+ years which you are free to check out.

I would miss FlyJack if he left DZ, and I tried to get him off Shutter's site. At that time FlyJack and Georger were taking all the air out of Shutter's site with their arguments about the bank paper bands and rubber bands. Finally, I took a break of about a year or so from Shutter's site and deleted all my previous posts in the process. However, I did make a hard copy of what I deleted. Shutter told me quite a while back that FlyJack was NOT banned from his site but made his own decision to leave. But Georger was given a week to leave later. Personally, every time I have withdrawn a significant number of bills from a bank, they had paper bands around them with a number of ink stamps and initials from the cashier on the bands.

This discussion suggests that the entire money bag arrived at Tena Bar relatively intact.

Chaucer, if NWA had an extensive radio network that used repeaters to made direct voice calls between its aircraft and MSP, then why did it have to use a phone patch through ARINC to communicate with the hijacked aircraft? And why were the two NWA aircraft in the ARINC transcripts, that were not related to NWA 305, using the ARINC teletype system to make routine position reports to MSP? The real question is why are there 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts?

FlyJack, congratulations on finding this publication. It relates to 1970 and I was not able to find it. Note that the "Functions & Allocations Notes" for both frequencies 131.8 and 131.9 are allocated to "Air Carriers (ARINC)" and that the "Ground Station Assignments" for both frequencies were assigned to the FCC and not the FAA. Frequency 131.8, which is a proven ARINC frequency, is listed as having 30 Ground Station Assignments and Frequency 131.9 is listed as having 44 Ground Station Assignments. To me, the above suggests that Frequency 131.9 was also assigned to ARINC and probably used in the same manner as 131.8. This would mean that it is not the NWA ground frequency at SEATAC.

Chaucer, you simply don't get it. I suggest you download the ARINC teletype print outs from the Olemiss website and take a look at the 3:20 PM PST entry. Note that the last thing in the 3:20 PM entry is "MSPXR 2320CK". The "MSP" stands for Minneapolis/St. Paul. The "XR" probably identifies the NWA person or office that originated the message. The "2320" is the GMT (3:20PM PST) that the message was sent. What the "CK" stands for is not clear, but it appears at the end of all the messages with the exception of the two that are not related to the NWA 305 hijacking as explained previously. NWA probably had a companywide teletype network in 1971, since it was very common for companies to have such networks. But it is unlikely that such a network would be able to communicate directly with aircraft by radio especially since the ARINC network was established in 1929 by four aircraft companies. NWA's company frequency at SEATAC may well have been 131.9 but this is not confirmed. At 8:20 PM, the airliner was 125 nautical miles distant from SEATAC and well outside the range for direct communications with SEATAC for their 10,000-foot altitude. They would have lost the ability for direct communications with an NWA radio facility at SEATAC by the time they were about 50 nautical miles from SEATAC. So, the question of who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency continues.

Chaucer, is English your first language? Your post that I replied to was from the FBI Notes document that has been around since at least 2009 on Sluggo's site. I said the FBI notes in my post. Since you are reportedly now the manager of Shutter's site, which has links to Sluggo's site, I perhaps foolishly assumed that you know that. To repeat a previous question, do you know who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency on the date of the hijacking? The 131.8 frequency can be documented as an ARINC frequency but where did 131.9 come from?

I'm not sure if I have ever visited your site before but I have just done so. The ARINC transcripts are obviously the same as the ones I was referring to. I also took the liberty of download the other transcripts to complement my hard copies of those that were made back about 2010 courtesy of Sluggo.

Chaucer, the "Lost communications on NWA communications frequency (131.9) . . . ." quote above is from the FBI Notes, not the ARINC teletype transcripts, and the agent who prepared those notes does not give a source for it. But it or something similar probably originated from MSP. As pointed out in my original post above, MSP had been informed in an 8:20 PM ARINC teletype message that the airliner was already on the 131.8 ARINC frequency. And obviously the airliner had been on 131.8 or another ARINC frequency since the time of the hijacking in Portland based on the ARINC transcripts. The assignment of communication frequencies is extremely regulated. Do you have any conclusive evidence of who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency on November 24, 1971?

Chaucer, the above is simply not true. You need to start citing facts and it would help if you made some effort to familiarize yourself with aeronautical matters. First, you need to download the ARINC teletype transcripts relating to the hijacking for the period 3:07 PM PST till 8:20 PM PST that are available on Shutter's site, I think. Anyway, they constitute eight printed pages. With one single exception, these all originated with ARINC Seattle, and that exception is at 3:20 PM that originated from MSP. It should also be noted that the messages at 7:34 PM and 8:24 PM do not refer to NWA 305 but to other NWA aircraft that were not involved in the hijacking. What follows is a brief discussion of some points in the ARINC transcripts. 3:07 PM - The NWA 305 crew sent a message thru the ARINC system that they had taken off from Portland at 2:58 PM and that their ETA at Seattle was 3:26 PM. 3:13 PM - The crew sent another message thru the ARINC system that they were being hijacked. 3:20 PM - MSP sent a message to Seattle that the hijacker boarded in Portland. 8:12 PM - Crew reported oscillations in the cabin. According to the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, NWA 305 reported that it was at 10,000 feet altitude. This completely disproves some claims that Cooper jumped at 7,000 feet altitude. 8:20 PM - MSP tells SEA to tell NWA 305 to go to 131.8 and SEA replies that the airliner is already on that frequency. The phone patch seems to have been established about this time. The ARINC frequency in Seattle was 131.8. There is no record of who was assigned the frequency of 131.9 but it was apparently a frequency for another ARINC ground station and probably one in the San Francisco area. According to the ARINC transcripts, the airliner continued to transmit to the ARINC ground station even while it was on the ground at SEATAC and while transmitting on the NWA ground frequency and the SEATAC tower ground control frequency. The NWA ground frequency at Seattle is never mentioned and would probably not be published. It would only be used by NWA aircraft and the SEATAC tower personnel. There is no indication of NWA having its own radio network, whatever that is supposed to be.

Chaucer, the above is just more of your nonsense. Would the lady who claims that the NWA teletype transcripts are not from ARINC care to release her paper for public viewing? We can compare her comments to what ARINC headquarters management personnel were telling Fred Poynter and myself a few years ago. A number of decades ago, it was quite common for companies with widespread branches to have their own teletype systems for communications between those branches. And NWA probably had one as well. Nevertheless, the communications with NWA aircraft in flight was through the ARINC radio/teletype system. Take a look at the Harrison teletype transcripts and you can see that they are all through the ARINC system. Also, a number of decades ago, aircraft on long international flights would usually have two pilots (at least), a flight engineer, a navigator, and a radio operator. Chaucer, are you claiming that the radio operator who was a member of the flight crew was also part of some NWA radio network? But by the time of the Cooper hijacking in 1971, the navigators and radio operators had disappeared from most airline flight crews and the flight engineers would soon disappear as well. Chaucer, you need to explain your claims. Finally, you wouldn't know me from Adam.

Chaucer, the above is simply not true. What are you talking about when you claim that NWA had their own radio network? There is no evidence for such a claim. All of the public teletype transcripts that are available for the hijacking are from the ARINC system. When the airliner was handed off to the Oaklan ATC Center, the controller told the crew to contact a certain number that was an ARINC number in Sacramento if I remember correctly. There are no ARINC transcripts available for the time the airliner was being worked by the Oakland controllers. Chaucer, you simply have not studied the radio transcripts from the Seattle and Oakland Centers plus those from the time the airliner was on the ground at SEATAC.

Eat your heart out Georger.

Georger, are the people with butterfly nets still chasing you?

Chaucer, you have now joined the Georger clique in which you apparently feel free to make any misrepresentation of my comments that serves your purpose. First, the hijacking was not an "emergency" in the sense that term is used in aviation and the flight crew never declared an emergency. And the flight crew was talking to the Seattle ATC Center. While airborne and some distance from Seattle, the airliner was communicating with the NWA Seattle office, and probably the Minneapolis headquarters, through the ARINC teletype network. While the airliner was holding in the Seattle area and on the ground at SEATAC, the crew could also communicate with the NWA Seattle office through the "company frequency" and with Minneapolis if they had a direct phone patch with them. They could also, and apparently did, communicate with NWA offices through the ARINC teletype system and a ARINC phone patch when it was made. They could also communicate with the SEATAC tower through their VHF radios. Chaucer, let me point out again that neither the FAA nor the FBI has denied the existence of the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts. They have not admitted that such transcripts exist either. But they do exist. In 1971, in addition to a commercial pilot certificate, I also held Advanced and Instrument Ground Instructor ratings. That is, I could sign candidates off for the written tests for Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot, and Instrument ratings. I have seen 16-year-old kids who were fully qualified to take the written test for the Private Pilot rating. They had to be 17 years old and have a recommendation from a flight instructor to take the flight test. Chaucer, based on your comments on this matter, I would not sign you off as being ready to take the written test for the Private Pilot certificate. You simply do not have the knowledge!

Chaucer, you are mistaken. The crew's communications through the ARINC radio patch with NWA personnel was not an air traffic control function. The 19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts would include the communications with ATC about the estimated jump time. Also, as instructed by ATC, the airliner crew was supposed to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped. As I have pointed out repeatedly over the last 14 years, if you want to know how air traffic control functioned in 1971 all you needed to do was read the Oakland ATC Center's transcripts. And I continue to be amazed how people with no known aeronautical qualifications continue to try to pontificate about the way the air traffic control system works while at the same time refusing to educate themselves about aircraft navigation, communications, etc..

You must know that ATC was actually running the show, not Minneapolis, and would be the ones to act on that information. Among other things, the 305 crew had been told by ATC to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped and they didn't.

Rataczak made a similar remark a number of times. This is just a fulfillment of my statement that non-believers would claim otherwise.

There is no evidence of any wind from the southeast at altitude during the hijacking. The winds aloft at 10,000 feet were from the southwest. The fact that the landing gear and flaps were down doesn't figure into anything except the airspeed of the aircraft. Rataczak was always flying straight into the wind. The airliner was never flying sideways. To stay on V-23, the airliner had to point the nose of the aircraft slightly west of the V-23 track. This has been explained several times above.

Olemiss, you need to read FlyJack's post that quoted Rataczak as telling the Seattle ATC that Cooper had jumped. That quote from Rataczak does not appear in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. It's definitely related to 305. There is nothing to suggest that any other aircraft was on the same frequency as 305. If you feel otherwise, please list the source of your information. It should be noted in this regard that the Oakland ATC controller told the Air Rescue C-130 to not transmit on the same VHF frequency that the airliner was on, and no other aircraft did either..

Georger, do you know which planet you are on? Now you appear to be suggesting that the money found at Tena Bar doesn't have anything to do with the hijacking.

Nineteen redactions are evidence that the so-called FBI flight path has problems. Where is your evidence for ANY flight path. How do you explain Georger's claim that there are not any redactions? I'm sure that he will deny ever making such a claim. FlyJack, there was no "sidewind" on the aircraft as I have explained to you about a dozen times. Your refusal to learn anything about aircraft navigation reveals a very closed mind. And the same goes for your knowledge of the Federal Air Regulations. This matter is closed as far as I am concerned. Talking to you is a waste of time.

I certainly agree that "everyone knows there are redactions", but several people on this site refuse to admit it and claim otherwise. If you don't know what the redactions are, how can you claim they are not evidence of a Western Flight Path? You seem to have some unusual "insights" into things that are not known.