cliffwhite

And are my earnings not my private property,Andy? A reasonable question. And the answer is: of course they are, but only in generic terms. But many contexts or specialties have "terms of art" that are not necessarily identical to generic meanings at a particular point in the historical timeline. So back when the early provisions of the Constitution were drafted, the authors used the term "private property" as a separate concept from taxable assets. And that's why you're the lawyer and I install septic systems! I'm so dumb that I believe when the founding fathers said private property they meant private property. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

>When my personal property is taken from me at the point of a gun or by threat >of incarceration certainly no one can argue that is freedom. I agree. *** Thank you for conceding my point. America is not a free country. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

If that's the case, he's misunderstanding that provision of the Constitution. It has nothing to do with taxation. It's referring to government appropriation of private property,*** And are my earnings not my private property,Andy? Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

But that's OK, I won't hold it against you. Thanks! Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

Perhaps you'd be well served by rereading the Constitution. From amendment five: … nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Citizens receive just compensation for their income taxes in the form of benefits provided with those tax monies. If those benefits were "just compensation" and I pay a much larger sum of income tax than my neighbor ,jcd, aren't I entitled to much greater benefits than he? But that's not the case is it? I recieve the same benefits a a citizen who paid zero income taxes ,therefore the compensation could not be " just". Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

So you're a lawyer, Andy? That's OK I won't hold it against you. As a matter of fact I will attempt to enlighten you and provide you with the proper perspective on this matter. Ya see ,Andy, neither theConstitution, the Bill of Rights, nor the government endows man with those Rights enumerated in the Constitution. No,Andy, men are born with those rights and no document or group of men can rightfully take them away. Therefore the Bill of Rights must supercede the rest of the Constitution. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

That's funny ,Don. Hey, did you know that for the majority of the time this country has been in existance there were no federal income taxes? Who paid for it then? Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

A large part of the problem is the federal reserve and their manipulation of our monetary system. Fractional reserve banking is one of the greatest ponzi schemes ever. Solutions would be to require that currency actually be backed by real assets rather than soley by the demand for it. You may not realize that the Federal Reserve is neither federal nor do they have any reserve. They create money out of documents for debt, therefore our economy is debt based not production based. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

Have you notified the IRS? I expect they'll all pack up and go home. Kind of my point. Remember the title of the thread is about America being free. As long as the government, through force or coercion denies us our 5th ammendment rights, America is demonstrably not a free country. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

Actually ,Pirana, anarchy simply defined is a system where he with the most guns rules. Freedom is the ability to do as one pleases. I for one believe in the right to do as one pleases as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

No Captain, I didn't miss that. You may be unaware though that the Bill of Rights supercedes any other part of the Constitution. Thus, while the Constitution does empower Congress to levy taxes , the 5th ammendment prohibits income taxes(confiscation of private property for public use). Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

>I would think that freemen would be entitled to keep their personal >property. ***Not if freemen want to mount a coordinated defense from other freemen who would take their personal property.*** __________________________________________________ The key word hear is "want". If I want to contribute my property to a common defence fund thats my right. When my personal property is taken from me at the point of a gun or by threat of incarceration certainly no one can argue that is freedom. __________________________________________________ > The sad truth is that the US government regularly demands that we turn >over our personal property without due compensation. *** Yep. They are called "taxes." Fortunately, you regularly have the opportunity to vote people into office who will disband the military, shut down the freeways, fire all the firemen, police and teachers the government employs, and then resign their positions. If enough people agree with you, that will happen. If not - welcome to democracy.*** __________________________________________________ Exactly !! As long as our Rights are subject to the whims of other men we are not Free in America. Here is a portion of the 5th amendment ,Bill. You may not be aware of it's meaning although it is rather straight forward and in simple language ;" nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." As long as our Rights are denied us by armed government agents, Americans are not free . Blues. Cliff 2muchTruth

provided a 4 inch waste line that isn't clogged and is draining properly, there is not much chance of freezing. See! I know my shit! Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

I would think that freemen would be entitled to keep their personal property.The sad truth is that the US government regularly demands that we turn over our personal property without due compensation. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

My , you are an outlaw!! And in this country only outlaws are truly freemen. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

Let me think here... it's illegal to use more than 1.6 gallons to flush the toilet . I'm not hearin' the ringing of the Liberty Bell 2muchTruth

*** It kind of reminds me of a Rudolph Giuliani speech. *mumble mumble mumble* 9-11!!! *mumble mumble mumble**** Dave, check the date. I'm talking about 9-10-01. please leave any "conspiracy theories" out of this conversation. Blues , Cliff 2muchTruth

I'm talkin' about the 2.3 trillion the Pentagon couldn't account for on 9-10-01. Larger than the stimulus(?) but with nothing to show for it. If the stimulus has anyone riled it seems to me that missing sum should have caused more conversation. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

***Your two plus, don't chew your fingernails. *** Also, hot goes on the left and the boss is an asshole. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

Why are so many of you worked up over this stimulus package? I mean really. What's the big deal all of a sudden over just a trillion or two bucks? I didn't hear any of y'all blabbering about that sum on 9-10-01 and that money was just kinda' missin'. Like it fell out of someones pockets into the sofa cushions. Fair winds and unlimited Ceilings, Cliff 2muchTruth

doesnt matter, and has nothing to do with your origional post. im not going to start answering whatever questions you may have. but i do wonder what your reasoning for posting about this in 2 diffrent threads is?[/ ____________________________________________________ Sorry for the late reply theonly ski. I posted the question in two different threads so that I could maintain a seperation between the replies of LEO's and military personelle. Do you understand now theonlyski? Blues , Cliff __________________________________________________ 2muchTruth

QuoteHA, troll. Not a troll Mr.dmkellet. Just making a point . You said science equalled reallity. So by the scientific method can you prove to us that you have a brain? Can we touch it taste it feel it measure it? If not your brain is only "theory" not reality. Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

Quotei have been deployed to several countries, iraq being one of them and no, i had no reason to fear for my life from anybody... __________________________________________________ So ,when ordered to Iraq what was the mission? Blues , Cliff 2muchTruth

yes, i would reason being: they have NOT given me reason to fear for my life at that point... ___________________________________________________ theonlyski, I don't know whether or not you've been deployed to either Afghanistan or Iraq but if you have; did you have reason to "fear for your life" from any of the citizens of those countries prior to your arrival there? Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth

honestly, if my boss told me to use lethal force on another american who is exersizing thier right to peacefull protest, i would refuse the order. ___________________________________________________ Here's a question for you theonlyski, If your boss told you to use lethal force on an Iraqi in Iraq, who is exercising their Right to peaceful protest, would you refuse the order ? Blues, Cliff 2muchTruth