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Thanks for the sensible reply. The difference seems to be they are imposing what they think is right over what the RSPCA does, which is just protecting animals that are being harmed in some way (like cruelty and neglect cases etc etc). I could never see the RSPCA suddenly saying "right, we can't eat turkey on Xmas anymore" because it's not within their operating juristiction or remit. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Thanks good food for thought. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Would just like to add a post script to this thread...if anyone is thinking of eating a banana, cookies, slice of pizza, 3 course meal etc while in freefall, watch out - i heard from people vastly more experienced than i that from their experience, if you lose a bit of food, it can have a propensity to go up nostrils where it can be stuck for a while. I would advise eating it on your back, using your chest as a "wind shield" rather than a belly to earth position. I wouuld also say small hard things like nuts would probably not be the best idea as i doubt you'll find anyone close enough or willing to suck it down trying to heimlich you Also if you are holding onto something - like banana peel - try and remember to track off with it in the opposite hand to whichever one you use to pull with. I forgot this bit and had to swop as i was flaring out my track "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Thanks - yeah i really should get some of those isotonic/sports drinks. I will for sure make sure i grab some crisps next time though, too!

I don't know much about PETA, being from the UK. Here we have the RSPCA - Royal Society For the Protection of Animals, that are widely respected and championed for the work they do. How do these organisations differ? It seems everyone lambasts PETA and blasts them for doing - on surface level - a similar job as the RSPCA. The one different i guess is the RSPCA is more of a faceless organisation - no one "champion" for the cause, if you like. Can someone explain - sensibly - why it is people seem to hate PETA? Thanks "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

I so know what you mean. It's not the destination, but the journey, etc etc

This doesn't seem to make much sense to me. How can you say someone is "Overall Champion" if they didn't attend all 3 events due to time constraints or limitations such as being out of the country? Isn't that somewhat misleading? On an aside, i would like to say well done to ALL teams and competitors, you are all doing the UK proud IMHO. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Dave could you please post a link? Couldn't find anything other than this... http://www.miragesys.com/ProductInfo/LegStrapRetainers.aspx?Prod=1 which is the standard bungee connector. Thanks "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

I will this weekend. I do not have a digital still camera. I'll have to have a photographer at the DZ take pics. I had two straps made about 2-3 years ago by Dave DeWolf and Ziggy. I made them some drawings, but I can't find those pics. In the meantime, hope this pic and explanation of the dimensions helps. Overall Length of finished strap = the distance across your buttocks between the outside edges of the leg straps where you want the strap to float. Mine sits at the top of the leg straps. I have a Racer without hip rings. It crosses my butt at the top of the curvy part of the butt - sort of like the RWS pic of the tandem horizontal strap. The Sewn length of the loops = slightly smaller than the width of the leg strap where you want the strap to float. Slightly smaller means 1/4 to 1/2 inch. My leg straps are not tapered. For tapered leg straps you might want to taper the loop too. You should still be able to slide the loops over the wider parts of the leg strap with a little bit of squishing. (Does that make sense?) You want the loop to be slightly smaller so that it stays in place without any tacking. Tacking would probably break after a number of jumps. My strap stays in place. I do feel pressure from it on openings. The loops were sewn differently by Dave and Ziggy. I can't remember which way goes with which rigger. I'll have to get a rigger to tell me the names of the stitching, webbing type etc. They are significantly different too. One is slightly more bulky than the other. I think that generic sizes can be made that will work for most people. The strap may sit in a different place tho. It is probably better to measure what you need on a rig/person basis. I will do this at Perris this weekend for anyone that wants one. I'll get Ziggy or someone to make them. I do not know the cost or turn time. You can have any color as long as it is black. ;) I'm sure a MFG can get you color coordinated. For personal rigs, used primarily by one person, there is no need to have and adjustable strap. . Many thanks for the explanation. I think i'm getting it but some pics would be great. Look forward to seeing them next week if you get a chance to sort it out. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

While i do admit this is far from a common problem, why should anyone have to die before it becomes a problem worth doing something about? Am i asking for more regulation or mandatory gear changes? No. I'm simply wondering if gear manufacturers think this is an issue, or might become an issue, or is even something worth pondering. You might call it scare mongering, but to me, the fact you are not even prepared to think this is a potential issue, given Jan Meyer's analysis and documentation showing it can and has happened, shows me you are on the side of cautious that i personally would rather not be on, but that's just me, each to their own and all that. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Sorry about your bike, i had mine stolen before, i was gutted. Next time, use a good dlock mate. As you suggest, a good set of bolt cutters will go through even what looks like a secure chain in a second. My D lock has stopped 2 bikes over a 6 year period going missing from big cities with prolific bike crime. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

It's all superflous - you need a prematurely deploying parachute to test this properly, when you are not in a flat, arched body position. That can't be done in a wind tunnel, and we already know people can fall out of their rigs (see that article i linked you). Besides there is no need to test anything - simulating this on the ground shows it can happen in the air and the guy in the CRW wrap on Jan's page has shown us it happens in the air too. I want to hear from the people making our rigs why they aren't doing something to close the hole. Am i missing somehting here? Does it make the rig less comfortable (therefore less sellable), or somehow unsafe? Do manufacturers not take it seriously because we are too busy killing ourselves under perfectly good mains, and not falling through the hole for them to worry about it as an issue? I don't know, but i hope some of them might enlighten us. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Thanks mate, i was reading that post last night and didn't even see the post date of Phree's original post, thanks for pointing that out. We might not have had any fatalities from this yet. But i think that's more because we have been lucky. It would only take one fatality before we would see an industry wide move to address this issue, i'm pretty sure. I'm wondering why we have to wait for someone to die first though? I know it's an extra cost, but if push came to shove, i would pay a little extra to have this as an option. It might be worrying over nothing, but the last thing i want is to be back in freefall looking up at my rig, with an inflated main as i fall away wondering why i didn't address this when i had the opportunity to do so. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Ever since i can remember, for some reason i have suffered from cramp in only one body part - on the curvature of both of my feet, on the inner side (the curve). Once or twice, when i first started jumping, i got a twinge there, when i was flat flying for my first 100 or so jumps. Nothing much, but enough for me to worry it would hurt like hell if the muscles in that curvy part of my foot went into spasm during free fall. I think pointing my toes while flat, "forced" my feet into that curled position and this is a way for me to "bring on" the muscle spasm if i hold that position for long enough. Anyway cue my first 10 mins in the tunnel, and most of which was flat. It was made up of four 2.5 min blocks, and even on the last session when i was on my back, toward the end of every 2.5 min session, i was literally on the verge of getting cramp in my feet every time. I think it's because i'm spending almost 3 times the amount of time i normally spend in freefall, in the tunnel, and 3/4 of the first 10mins i ever did were flat (with the pointy toe thing going on, which doesn't help my cramp). Has anyone else suffered from this? I must admit, i was pretty stupid and didn't stretch my feet nearly enough before starting my session which may well have helped stop it altogether. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

As far as i'm concerned, and i'm not rigger, the "void" has already been found on sport rigs. How it's possible to fall (be pulled) out of your rig What we are now seeing in light of the recent tandem passenger fatality, is a propensity for many people to be able to seemingly come out of their rigs easily (edited to add: while experimenting on the ground!). Jan Meyer has already made a work around (which i plan on looking into for my own rig) but i'm curious to know the gear manufacturers thoughts on this topic, being they are eminently more knowledgeable on this than I. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

See what tested? Someone potentially coming out of their rig in a tunnel? I don't think that's possible, you need the deploying main (often when you aren't expecting it, such as a premature in an upright or inverted body position) "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

With the slew of recent posts and video demonstrations here, (and Jan Meyers research on the topic), i think it's quite obvious that unless something is done, we're going to have a sport parachutist fatality (or at the very least, another near miss) at some point due to this issue, especially due to the increasing propensity for skydivers to experiment and get into 3 dimensional flight. Should manufacturers be doing something about this now, now that it's been identified as a real and potentially very serious issue? Why should someone have to die first for the whole industry to be changed? Just how much time and money would it cost them (or heck even us, if we paid them, or could spec it as an option? I would pay $20 for a back strap, or webbed leg strap connector if it helped to keep me in my rig, which in itself had cost me $1000's). Do gear manufacturers think that because the rigs are fine, have been fine, then they will be - more or less fine? If we want to worry about this, we should mod it ourselves (or rather get a rigger to do so, as per Jan's example?). I would welcome comments from Bill Booth and other equipment manufacturers here on what they think of this issue, as the way i see it, it is something we deserve to have comments from the gear manufacturers about. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

You haven't seen my rig. A solution: I had a rigger make a connector for me. It is a piece of webbing with loops at each end. The loops slide over each of the leg straps. It is pulled up all the way to the top of the leg strap in back. The overall length should be such that the tension in the strap is snug when your leg straps are tightened for a jump. The loops are slightly smaller than the width of the leg straps so that it can stay in place without any additional tacking or rigging. I have been using this for a few years now. This strap looks very much like the free floating tandem chest straps but it is not adjustable. Every once in a while people ask me what that is for. I tell them that I can get out of my rig with both parachutes packed. It's even easier when the main is out. The strap makes it harder, if not impossible, to get out. Most people think I'm overly anal about falling out backwards. For most jumpers on most deployments, the split saddle has a remote possibility of allowing someone to fall out. This would result is a catastrophic event, the death of the jumper. For other jumpers the probability is higher and may be close to very probable. I think it is only a matter of time before a sitflyer with a premee gets his rig yanked off of him. I spoke with a very experienced TI about this and he said his school put those little bungy things on all of the tandem passenger harnesses. He even told me of one jump where the passenger almost fell out (before they had the bungy things installed). There was nothing he could do to help keep her in. He felt helpless, but fortunately she did not fall out. He also told me of a large student that went fetal when he pulled. The jumper almost fell out. The chest strap was up around his neck. The leg straps were down at his knees. The jumper could not reach his toggles either. This TI also modified one tandem harness for special needs people. It has two extra straps to hold the buttocks in. He also uses this harness for some elderly jumpers who may not have strength in their hips. . Jan if you can, can you please post up a few pics of this mod you have had made for your rig? I thinki know what you mean but it would help to have photos. Thanks "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

The problem though is that they think they are tracking. I was on a 4-way a month or two ago and under my shoulder watched one of the other guys turn away, bring his arms back and nothing else. Didn't even extend his legs. End result he went head down for two seconds and then pulled in about the same spot he'd been in at breakoff. The guy had twice as many jumps as me, and that was the last time I'll jump with him. For people who just do casual skydives with out much extra coaching or organised loads there really does not seem to be much emphasis put on learning how to get anymore than a basic track. this is what i meant when i originally posted. Obviously this example is pretty extreme (in so much as it would appear this person didn't even cover ANY horizontal distance - although thats subjective given you were moving away from him and would have been hard to judge) but still - this was pretty much what i have been seeing over and over in videos. Thanks for the recent example. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Well Bill, that's what I thought, but a while back I was told by someone that he thought they (the FF regulars, more or less) were doing tracking dives to "learn how to track better". (This could explain why it seemed to me like the OP was implying that FF's were better at tracking!) You and I flying in the same direction in very close proximity (tracking?) sounds like fun to me, but apparantly some people are calling it the same thing but having something completely different in mind. Hi i never meant to imply that FF's are better at anything. Some of the best tracking i've seen is done by the likes of Airspeed et al, but what i was trying to point out is that when i see newbies like myself with a couple or several hundred jumps doing 4 way, it seems like they can be quite skillful often turning points, but when it comes to clearing the formation and separating, it all goes to pot. It could be the angles of video i'm seeing, or just the videos in particular i have seen where the tracking actually isn't that good, or as others have pointed out, people in those dives CAN track well, they are just choosing not to (which, in 4 way, if you are not on the flight line, seems odd to me). Tracking dives are not always about max tracking, but on every tracking dive i have been on, you should ALWAYS max track - at the end, to separate from the others (of which there may be easily 10+ of you in the sky) to get away from one another. Even on regular small way tracks, our usual rabbit turns on the speed at the end, and we end up cranking out hard, flat tracks to keep up with him which definitely is giving us good flat track practice. Yes, we get FS guys tracking with us, but 90% of the time, it's 90% freeflyers, i don't know why (we have equal numbers of both FF and FS people at the dz). "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

What i meant sorry, was when you see someone who is pigeon chested (i.e. arched, chest pushed out) while tracking, with their arms sort of back but almost more out, and legs and straight, but still maintaining an arch not a dearch, and end up transitioning more to a delta, falling down, rather than moving away horizontally. I understand in some situations a good track is not necessarily the fastest you can do, but in a small group, surely you want to separate sooner rather than later, therefore a dearched fast track held for less time is better than a longer sustained slower arched track? "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Surely at break off on a 4 way, for at least the 2 jumpers travelling adjacent to the flight line, there is such a thing as a good track position? Namely a flt, dearched position that puts them as far away from the group as they can get in the few seconds they have to achieve max separation? Surely you could also say, likewise, even the 2 guys going up/down flight line have a good position to be in - namely one that separates them from the group as quickly as possible? Obviously it would be better to begin travelling at a faster speed more quickly and sustain it for less time, than to accelerate slowly and have to hold it for longer, perhaps when that 3k beep is sounding etc. The example i originally used is my experience of watching small (3 or 4) way, typically not massively experienced groups. Forget the Airspeeds and the bigways, i know different rules and skill levels apply. I'm talking about the other 90% of small way FS i'm watching, where people turn to track, and are still just as arched as they were while turning points throughout the whole track, regardless of which direction they might be travelling in. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

*swoon* to infinity "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

At least this thread allows us to be online and chat to babes all day "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts

Yes, I think you are. thanks that adds a lot to the discussion "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts