fcajump

I hope that in years to come, after you've seen a bit more of what this sport does to those who do not learn from the past, you are embarased at the posts you have made. In the mean time, I hope the old foggies keep replying to your posts and keep the newer members of this site from taking your "advice" from killing them. This does assume that you manage to live long enough to learn the danger of your attitude to both yourself, those who fly in vicinity of you and those who are foolish enough to follow your "advice". Please take up bird watching. Or at least take a few years listening, watching and learning... the life you save might be your own. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Have jumped 182's both with and without interior liners... Without does (as someone else points out) provide that little bit extra room. However, it also tends to be rather abrasive on rigs, with all sorts of places/things upon which to snag/cut/abrade your rig, jumpsuit, fingers. On the extreme case, our pilot was cut something bad on the unpadded interior when a jumper's rig pulled the tail off and he was attempting to bailout. Lessor issues - a stripped interior is less weight carried up/down, but also noisier. For myself, I'd use the closed-cell hard rubber foam that I've seen in some planes. It could be used on the floors/walls/ceiling, and cut-to-shape around the ribs/etc... BUT I don't have any idea of what the FAA would thing of its use. Just my $.02 JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Jerry, Thanks for bringing this up. I do think it should be addresses and clarified. Currently there is too much gray area in the regs. This is most clearly obvious to me when I hear the different interpretations on the issue between yourself and other seasoned/qualified experts. I have sent Mark a letter (copied below) with my own opinions. I am sure there will be those with contrary opinions and I would be interested in hearing their rational for why they would do things differently. Blue Skies, Jim --------------- Mark, I agree that PIA should petition the FAA to clarify the regulation concerning sealing the rig. Questions that should be addressed (and my opinions) include: 1. Should it be sealed in a tamper-proof manor? Yes. This is vital to reassure both the owner and rigger of record that the system has not been opened since the rigger last worked on it. I do NOT for a minute propose that this eliminates all ways in which the rig could be incapacitated, but it would be harder for such actions to be made to look like rigger error. 2. Should the rig's "airworthiness" be dependent upon the seal being intact at the time of use? Yes. As there is general disagreement within the industry, by very experienced, knowledgeable and respected experts in the field, I believe this needs to be codified. If the seal is not intact, there is no assurance to the DZO, Instructors, pilot or plane owner that the rig is in airworthy condition. These entities have become increasingly held responsible for the parachute systems used at their facilities, in their planes, they must be able to verify that the system has not been opened since closed by the rigger of record. Further, ramp checks of aircraft in which a parachute is being used need clear policy on this point. An owner advised by his rigger that an intact seal is not required may be violated by a FAA representative who disagrees with that interpretation. I would suggest that precedent may already exist on this point in the other components of certain aircraft that are sealed to indicate whether they have been altered since the mechanic last worked on it (thinking here of emergency exits/slides/etc). 3. Should the seal's material be specified? Yes, _with_ provision for the rig manufacturer to (optionally) provide alternative processes/materials in their manual. This would provide a default standard for any rig (legacy rigs for example) where the manual does not specify. While I feel the current lead seal w/ break thread is a good option, by it remaining specified without exception, there is no option for innovation. The manufacturers should have the flexibility to indicate that (and which) alternative(s) are approved for use on their systems. This desire to innovate is not simply a "better mousetrap" but may be an increasing necessity as more localities put restrictions on the use and handling of lead products. 4. Should the seal include the rigger's mark (seal letters) as is currently required? Yes. No reason to change this. 5. Should the seal be required to include the date or other information? No. Not because its a bad idea. Matter of fact, I am all for it. But currently we do not have any reliable, tried/tested/proven standardized method(s). I would like to see it be developed, available and adopted by the industry, but it should not be codified at this time. Additional comments: I would like to see a method developed to have the seal "captured" such that even when the pin is pulled and the thread broken, the seal would remain on the rig. Respectfully, Jim Wine Master Rigger (back/seat/chest) PIA Member Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Sometimes it'll be lost, depending on the rig. However, a pre jump gear check (we all do them right??) would confirm that the seal was in place before the jump.... It would be interesting to do a few spot checks on rigs at the DZ, and I'd imagine if the FAA inspectors came calling it might be something it would look at. Lots of missing seals would reflect badly on the DZO... Years ago I was at a DZ that was unwelcome by the local pilot clubs... We had the FAA on the field doing spot checks every month or so. They wanted to see the pack data card AND that the seal was intact and matched the card. At least THAT field office thought it should be intact/present/match. JW PS - they never did find ANY reason to write up the DZ... unfortunately the locals won through bleeding the legal coffers with constant challenges. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

But if you know one has a vulnerability that could cause it to fail when needed, and the 70+ year old solution is tried and proven, why change?? Just askin... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I don't know. I asked on of our TIs and he said that it happens when they lay the rig down on the packing mat. I'd say it happens somewhere between 10% and 25% of the time when I pack them. Can be hard to get them undone. TI told me he not only checks it prior to boarding but also checks the rings under canopy. Don't know it that is a standard check for TIs or not. The checks _should_ be part of the standard pre-board gear check and standard post-openning check. Unfortunately even good TI's can get distracted/complacent. The case I know of was a collection of mistakes by one of the few packers I let work on my rig, a DZ where folks do look after each other and by a highly experienced instructor that was usually very careful. Yet the facts of the failure and outcome are not in dispute... Lessons learned from that case: Packers - here's one more thing to look for/correct that can easily be overlooked if the rig is already layed out and you don't check. TI's - here's one more reason to double check that rig before you pick it up. EVERYONE - one more incident that could have been avoided if SOMEONE had offered my friend a gear check. (or if he had asked for one) We're in this together folks. LOOK and Question. I'd rather have an A licensed noob catch my mistake than not. Better embarased than hurt/dead. J Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

True confession, I sat on a plane with a 3 ring like that on a tandem rig. Jumper across the aisle caught it. It's now part of my self check routine. Lesson learned. As a new Strong TI, I had someone point out the same thing when I was waiting to walk out... Eye openner as to how easy it is to get that on a Tandem rig (now sure why... I've rarely seen it on a non-tandem rig...) JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I got my knuckles rapped when I was learning to pack tandems, because I missed that on a rig. It's a good point to consider as IF it is possible, it could result in a broken riser or inability to cutaway. I have seen this problem missed on the ground during a tandem pack job and it caused the white loop to snap during deployment causing one riser to release. Luckily the TM was able to cutaway. I know of a great TM that missed this error. White loop broke on the turn to final. Spun in under 1/2 canopy. Student was (relatively) OK, but TM is now in a wheel chair. Its a simple mistake that he now lives with every day of his life. This is the type of thing EVERYONE on the plane should have caught. Look the each other's gear, question what you see. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

A different comment with regard to being in groups... if/when you are in formation, you have the option to check other altimeters too. used to be easier when more folks wore chest-mounts, but can be done. If you really need to make the point; get some one's attention, indicate yours isn't working look them in the eye, then show and tap your alt, then reach gently for their's. Then those around you know that yours is questionable. BUT don't rely 100% on the others to break off on time... they may be waiting on YOU. Eyeball the ground (as other's have mentioned). When you are going to pull higher or at an unknow/conservative altitude, REALLY get a good/clear wave-off going. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Cause you're an addict... Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I am looking to generate a list of active parachute riggers in the mid-Atlantic. This would be for distribution to callers looking for rigging services (pilots and skydivers) and posting on a new page of my web site (under construction)*. *if you want (some of) your information to be included in offline lists only, just let me know. For now, I am limiting the list to those in: DC Maryland Virginia Pennsylvania Delaware I'd like to include the following information: Name email address Address Phone number Certificate level (Senior/Master/DPRE) Type ratings (back/seat/chest/lap) How long you've been rigging BIO tweet (140 char to describe specialties, etc) If I may include your information, please e-mail me at: riggers@parachuterigger.us Fine print: there is no charge to be listed, I will ONLY post information sent directly from the rigger themselves 100% money back if you're not happy offer may be withdrawn at anytime without refund. Blue Skies, Jim Wine jim.wine@parachuterigger.us 2350 Youngs Drive Haymarket, VA 20169 703-401-4689 Master Parachute Rigger Rated for back/seat/chest Since 1999 Specializing in pilot rigs. By appt only/no new customers at this time. Presentations to your flying group about buying/use/care of ‘chutes. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I know a pilot that is in better shape than many skydivers. Been flying an airshow act for 40 years in a Cub (light plane, no passenger, slow speeds). When he went to renew his class II medical, they delayed it for 6months while he went through a battery of additional exams (all of which proved his good health) then demanded that he get a notorized letter from his AME that guarenteed that nothing would happen while he was at the controls. The ONLY difference between that year and the prior... he turned 80. So, it may not be in writing, but there is a defacto age limit in place. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

First Cypres fire I ever saw was someone who got used to listening for his audible... was focused on break-off/separation and listening... Finally looked down at 1k... Between the two (three), I'd rather the one that gives me a chance to wake up when I get taken out by someone else's poor body-flying skills... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Come WELL rested, with an open mind and willing to unlearn what you thought you knew and learn better/cleaner than you might have done before. I showed with zero reserve experience and it was a long but very rewarding week. A good sense of humor will go a long way too. Jim Master Rigger (back/seat/chest) PS - Tip #1 - if you're concentrating REALLY hard to do something, and hear snickering... double check the basics before looking up... yes, you have an audience... Tip #2 - if you've never seen a reserve free-bag... the line stow pouch goes down (floor side) and is NOT big enough for the canopy... Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

My most recent (2008) unplanned cutaway was from a 90% main (brakeline trapped at the attachpoint of a centercell 'C'... long story) spin increasing/backward as the slider dropped. So I was very verticle to the relative wind at release. No RSL, Vector II w/ Fury 220. No discernable delay to the deployment, total loss (per altitrack) from release to normalized decent rate under reserve was right at 500'. (chop at ~1800') Glad to have a comfortable sized reserve and quick deployment. Wife, friends and audience were glad all went smooth. JW PS - my only problem with my new Racer is the deployment force (ripcord). Was VERY high when first delivered from the factory. Better the second time from the factory, and my own packjobs are getting better, though still higher than I like. It also seems that, like the Reflex, it would be VERY easy for a field adjustment of the PC tension leading to a hard-pull that gets blamed on the last rigger of record. I bought it to get comfortable with the rig and its differences having never asked to service anyone elses, but I'm not at the point I would take on someone elses yet. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

5'-nothing skinny college girl. Didn't get much time to chat on the ground, and noticed she was a bit nervous in the plane, but said she was fine. She's not really looking out much, but its a hazy day and hard to see anything anyway... Everything proceeded to the door (Otter), but... One site of the ground and she didn't just balk, she was DONE!!! Grabbed the door frame and I swear she grew claws and cleets... (I am a strick no-push TI) So, ok... balk... move her out of the doorway for the other's to go... no dice. She's got such a death-grip on the door I can't move her. All the time I'm trying to tell her and get her to let go she's gripping harder. (I suspect the only concious thought left were that if she let go she'd fall/be pushed out...) Finally got her pried loose and sat down. After discussing trying again (NO!!!) I signaled to the pilot to desend. On the way down we chatted (much better with a belt and the door closed) and found out that she had... Never been in a plane (any). Never been in a high-rise. Never been in to the mountains. Never seen the world from higher than eye-level... ...until we stepped to the door... This really isn't for everyone. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Kinda... I made a deal with my local DZO who (at the time) could use extra instructors... I got my rating, I bought my rig. When I had friends I could bring them out and take them at cost doing all the work myself on my own rig. When he had need of additional instructor help, I would take his students on my rig under his program and he paid me as instructor, packer and rig rental. Now... was this financially profitable? Not really. When I got married, I sold the rig. I suspect it all paid for itself, but I certainly didn't make a bunch on it. What it did for me and the DZO: One more rig, packer and instructor when he needed more capacity without him having to buy another rig. An instructor that would disappear when times were lean... no bitching about not getting work. Two slots sold anytime I brought out a friend who would "only jump with" me... I had the comfort of always being 100% sure I knew the history, condition and pack job/style of the rig. However, while another local DZ (whose rigs were trashed) kept calling for me to teach, they balked when I said "sure... but I use only my rig". They kept calling, I kept laying down the condition, they kept balking... until they went out of business completely. Just 1 TI's experience.... JW PS - I'm back in the market for a Strong DHT for exactly this same use... or maybe a TNT?? Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I am just guessing that he got that from NB-6 era... I'll try to ask him next time I see him. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Before getting repremanded for thread drift, I figured I'd open the discussion here. --------------------------------------------- I'd be curious to know how many riggers routinely test the pull force of the rigs they see in their loft, how they do their testing and what pull forces they see. 1 - regs: within the US, I understand that all reserve/emergency systems must deploy at or below 22-lbs. Yet, one rigger I know references (old?) that a three pin rig has a higher allowance than a two pin... Anyone? Other countries? 2 - pull force technique - I use a scale with max-force needle. (would like a digital, graphing with peak force and averaging functions, but until one of you give me one, its what I've got...) Checked once a year to ensure its still reporting accurately. When its an option, I have someone wear the rig and have the scale pull in line with the housing. When I don't have someone to wear the rig I place it on the table (PC up) and arrange the yoke/shoulder to have ~ the same arc as if it was being worn (often with another rig playing the roll of "shoulder") I have heard some insist that it should be in a different direction... references? I do my tests with the seal removed. I test at the handle. However, I've heard some say it is the force at the pins that "counts" and the measurement should not include housing resistance at all. (when discussing "legal limits") In the extreme out-side-the-norm, I've seen old loops come in with 3-5 lb pulls and factory packs come in at 30-50lb pulls. Most repacks seem to run 12-18 lbs on rigs that have their loops changed regularly and their PC launches without hesitation and moderate-strong. I'd like to see what y'all see... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

a) As I pointed out, that's based on a factory statement about the correct loop length is 1/2 cm shorter than the shortest listed in the manual for three different sizes of reserve in the manual (which vary in a range of 2 cm). b) Therefore Aerodyne is saying that the loop is too long compared to their own secret knowledge of the correct length. c) It supposes that there is zero variation in allowed loop length. If Mr. Factory Rigger in Florida says "3 inches" is normal for a particular rig, am I a bad rigger if I use a 3 1/4" loop in winter in dry air where I am? d) As you pointed out, a little slack has always been considered acceptable after being packed a long time. (Although having much slack is now less common with small rigs and leverage devices to make rigs super tight.) It would all be easier if they just said that with the rig packed, they could push down on and compress the pilot chute and pull the pin & loop up an extra X" of slack, whatever that number might be. +1 I would like to see one more piece of information included in all deployment tests... the pull force. I have seen several rigs (some from manufacturers that push maximum closing loop lengths) that have come in with ripcord pull forces in excess of 22-lbs. Highest was ~40+lbs, packed by the factory, tested while worn and adjusted correctly. Ok, Aerodyne says all is well when using the correct (apparently shorter than manual) length loop, but was the pull force acceptable with that loop? NOT saying it wasn't, but based on what I've seen come in, I'd like to know... JW PS (edited to add) I have no insight to this particular issue, nor Aerodyne's tests and have not personally seen one of their rigs pull hard. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

You are wrong. Between the chicken-shit student sitting next to it (me) and the discussion of what if a pilot-chute gets loose, I can say that I was VERY happy all my Cessna jump aircraft had closable doors for the flight up... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Reminds me of my ex-wife showing pictures of her first jump to her mother... first comment was "you did something with your hair" Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Not all kill-line style PC bridles have windows. Was surprised when my new Racer arrived without one. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Just wanted to remind folks that many pilots are not jumpers and may or may not have been given much (if any) training on how to wear/use the gear. Even if they are jumpers, they should get the same consideration that we (should be) giving every jumper on the plane. Just saying... BTW - yep, found one... pilot who had been wearing his emergency rig for years and never told how to route the chest strap through the friction adapter... he thought the velcro was enough. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Few years back there was a pic going around of a rig that had been checked into a boogie, then jumped several times before anyone noticed that the person tagging the rig had put the tag (zip-tie) around the main lift web through the reserve handle. Look for the stupid shit as well at the expected. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...