fcajump

+1 (really wish they would add a "Like"/"Me too" button) Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Um... no. Is stupid and reckless. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Even this commonly accepted technique fails to include the most critical data of all - the difference in wind speed and direction between the exit altitude and the planned deployment altitude. Agreed... hence the caviot that its "the best method we have so far"... This is where (in addition to looking/paying attention) the feed-back loop is essential... jumpers both on the ground and in the air should note how well things are working and get the next load to adjust their spot/jump-run/timing/etc... to get the necessary location and separation. Its bad enough when one load has issues, repeating it on the next (few) is just wrong. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

You don't use it because it doesn't work? Or just doesn't work as well as counting? Also, "usually" means there are cases where at least one person does not use the counting method. What method does that person use? Mark The 45degree method (which I was taught when I started) has been mathematically, computationally and empirically proven not to work. The person who does not count, is relying upon past experience and luck to given them the separation we need. The best method we have so far seems to be a GPS derived ground speed on jump run, separation count chart with notations for larger groups/higher breakoff with longer tracks, and a calm/reliable count. Note: if you are counting and THEN starting your climb-out, u're doin' it wrong. The full separation count should INCLUDE your climb-out and exit count time. If you're the last out, whatever... but in the middle of a large plane this can be an issue. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Agreed, I think it is secure. Though to the OP... in the shadow it is hard to tell directly. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Follow on question here... For those that say (on this, or ANY other issue) that "its the rigger's job".... have you discussed with YOUR rigger what (s)he does consider their job? _I_ do inspect/clean/lubricate the cutaway cables and exercise the main risers, if they are present... but several folks bring their system to me without the main and/or cutaway cable there... Other riggers feel that they are working on the TSO'ed portions only (not the main) unless specifically asked because, that's the owner/operator's job... Want to know what your rigger does? ASK?!? JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Having limited exposure to Vectran or HMA, is this simply a friction issue, or is there a heat/chemical component to the problem? (not that it changes the outcome/problem... just curious) JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

If you have constructed/own a container used for an Ash dive, please send me PM. Looking for designs for (or loan of) such a container. Please describe how your pouch was designed/used and how well it worked. v/r JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

(still working my way through the backlog, but...) I don't see any jumping of tracks here. While I am VERY interested in the videos (actually have seen a couple from PLI's site), the rest of this discussion is 100% pertinent to whether or not this is a good idea and/or whether or not you/me/we will ever actually use them in the field rather than limited to the Parachute Lab and videos... [/rant] We now return you to the multi-threaded discussion, already in progress... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

This is a made up "What if". In the last 40 years nearly 100% of all rigs jumped had cloth loop and standard ripcord pins. To my knowledge there have been no fatalities attributed to the bent pins. Sure some have been found and I am sure some have been pulled bent. But no one has ever gone in from one. Cutters on the other hand, which represent only a small percentage of the overall population, have cause several fatilities and caused one company to close. If this isn't a "No Brainer" I don't know what is. Don't know if the owner would have gone in, but the first (only) really bent pin I've come across was on a Racer 2k3. Pull force (wearing the rig, with analog scale/peak force indicator, pulling in-line with the housing) was over 50-lbs. At that point, I think I'd rather a cutter... But still interested to see where this goes. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

How did they do that? What did their new DZ offer that the old one did not. If a DZ is a pleasant place, it is a lot easier to stay put. And if that business model is one that eliminates the sport/fun jumpers for the sake of profit and slightly higher wages or other perks, what does that do (what is that doing) to our industry as a whole? If we want to survive for the long run, we need to stop supporting, working with/for tandem mills that scrape the cream off the top. If we fail to support the DZ's that provide complete instruction and balances tandems with sport, we will loose it all to the one-n-done passenger/carnival riders. JW JW JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I am not a mfg, so will let them clarify/expand on this if they will. You are correct that eliminating this step would make missing stitches easier to detect. However, it is a common industry practice for a good reason. It helps ensure that the two sides of the gear (or two risers in this case) are symmetrical prior to sewing. Comparing the two after one is done is misleading due the the shrink involved when an item is sewn. By tacking the junctions in place prior to sewing, the two can be compared, changed, flipped over (if initially placed in the wrong place/direction). It is itself a tool in ensuring quality control. That comes with the trade off of having to be 100% on your post-sewing inspections. Other similar things that have cropped up in decades past include line cascades or finger-traps that are set but not bar-tacked, missing stitches/parts, missing bobbin thread (top of the seam looks fine, but pulls out easily) wrong parts assembled, parts incorrectly assembled (soft-links), parts not fully assembled, grommets not fully set, hard links not tightened or over tightened/cracked, etc... If it can be done wrong, or not done at all, it can and probably has happened in the past. The trick is to understand that it will happen and to put the proper checks in place to catch it. I am very encouraged by the mfg's response to you. Hopefully they will follow through. It was just such a QC problem (on a larger scale) that was followed up by denials and poor response/follow-up that killed a very good/promising sport harness/container mfg some time back. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Thanks for your posting this... good reminder to us all that manufacturers and riggers are people who can make mistakes. The person with the most vested interest in the gear is the one putting it on their back, so it helps all of us if the owner/jumper knows their gear. Yes, gear straight from the mfg should be 100%, but you're the one about to hang your butt under it. FWIW - when I first get new gear, I assume that there is a mistake in how it was made and my job is to find it. Failing that, I then do a series of break-in jumps (higher alt pull, focusing on the gear rather than the jump). Sub terminal first, and increasing the delay/forces on it in subsequent jumps. That way, as in your case, the early QC issues are found with ample altitude/time to resolve. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Start with talking to the local dropzone to find a seasoned rigger in the area to check the gear. While I know how much the idea of jumping his gear would mean to you (and him) some things to consider: - if you are going to be on the ash dive, you first need the experience to do it safely (see your AFF instructor for a start). - if his gear is going to be used for that jump, it must be in good condition (hence the visit to the rigger). - if you're going to be the one using his gear for that jump, it must be appropriate for you (weight, size, experience v/s gear type) Rigger and instructors will help you evaluate that aspect. If you proceed with patience, a plan, realistic goals and focus on safety this would be a wonderful and memorable thing for you to do. But (sorry if I'm sounding negative) I am SURE the last thing he would want is for you to push forward with something unsafe and get hurt trying to do this "for him". Best wishes in your goals! JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

In the end... yes it was. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Its easy to be the arm-chair quarterback, discussing what people did wrong and how they could have broken the chain of events that lead to an incident. Its also common for conservative decisions to be criticized, second-guessed and ridiculed. Today I'd like folks to recognize that pushing someone to continue a jump when they think they see an issue is to keep them from breaking that chain... You want to help break the chain, recognize and support a jumper's decision to stand-down. This last weekend a jumper at our DZ chose to ride the plane down. He'd made 6 back-to-back loads, taken a quick break for dinner, packed and gotten right back on. A little fatigued, it occurred to him on the way up that he was less than 100% sure that the kill-line PC was cocked... Of course it SHOULD be, he'd packed them hundreds of times, never missed one... But what about _this_ time... you sure, or are you tired?? The rig (Racer) has no kill-line window to check. Either it is, or it isn't... Are you riding it down and wasting time/money, or are you going to trust that you can't have done it wrong? Flip a coin. Either all is well, or your dealing with a PC in tow, reserve ride... two-out?... cutaway...? lost gear? entanglement? The possibilities might be right outside that door. Flip a coin... forge a link or break it?? I'm sure others have faced this situation. This time it was my turn. After 25 years of jumping, it was an annoying but easy decision to make. Having planned to be first-out on a low pass it was inevitable that the entire Otter load would know when I decided to stand-down. The concern expressed as to what would be so wrong as to get me to ride-down was gratifying... but more so was the general concurrence that it was 'better to ride down and check the gear, than get out and chance it'. I don't tend to bend to peer pressure and press on with something I've deemed unsafe, but it was great to see that there was none. Mostly because others on the plane with less resolve and/or experience, having seen the support for a safe choice, might feel better about making the right call when its their decision to forge the next link, or break the chain. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I've seen the potential for it, but not actually heard of it happening before. No surprise though. My older PD-Spectre's have this style, but I understand that PD has since removed the tab and simply make the new lines blunt-ended and long enough to not get lost in the channel. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

FWIW - I try to thank my pilot even when they are "only" faced with a routine run. (I still forget too often, or they're up again when I'm packing to leave.) You bet I'd thank them for pulling off a save. The rigger is often the worst paid (per hour) on the DZ, and yet holds one of the highest liability. Is it too much to suggest that after his handy work has saved your butt after you've rushed another pack job without checking your pin/loop/line-continuity/velcro/etc... (or paid someone where neither of you care about condition) you might want to give the rigger a little positive feedback about their work? You tip a waitress for 'doing their job' when it was to get the right food from the back to your table. Here 'doing their job' resulted in you living. Think about it. Just my $.02, JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I once knew someone who was saved by not having his seatbelt on in a car when he was T-boned. But I would suggest that in general you are safer when you (and everyone else) is fully belted. Just my $.02 JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Had a short day-pass from the wuffo family vacation to air-out. Definitely worth bringing the rig! If you're looking for big/fast planes, well... there' not here. But if you're looking for a friendly place to jump, work on basic skills and enjoy the view, this is it. I grew up at a Cessna DZ and this reminded me a lot of home. While my pass ran out too early, SET got me up twice with minimum delay (loaded up at least as quick as my current home DZ with an Otter, even if the planes don't climb as fast). Did I mention the air conditioned packing areas?? Wonderful feature that'll have me back next time I'm in the area. Thanks for the hospitality! JW

My guess is that you won't be (for long)... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Merely having possession of the keys? How else is Joe going to get into his car? What is he supposed to do? Unlock the car door and throw the keys on the ground while he opens the door, gets the phone, and re-locks the door? Is there a scenario by which he could do this without it being illegal? I haven't checked local (US) laws, but I thought that the key had to be in the ignition switch to determine intent to drive. "parking while drunk" is illegal in some areas... Colorado, Minnesota & Illinois http://beforeitsnews.com/the-law/2013/06/wake-up-call-dont-get-a-dui-while-sleeping-and-parked-2451040.html Alabama http://legacy.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050412/dui.shtml Florida http://www.jgcrimlaw.com/actual-physical-control-dui.html (that's in a couple minutes with google... saw California somewhere there too... Makes you wonder about those who drink while camped in an RV...???) REALLY dumb law, but there you go... (In some areas being underage and drinking will get your license suspended even if you don't have keys with you and haven't been near a car... ) JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Fair enough... that clears (as much as can be) what is said about the original question. But expanding the thought a little... (strictly for the sake of argument) where does it say that a rigger is held to the standard of 22-lbs (or any specific pull force) if the manufacturer's manual does not specifically state it in their packing instructions? I do see that the manufacturers are required to prove that it can be (i.e. it was TSO'ed).... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

And... by then the roller mount for the GoPro4 may be out which would be an even smaller profile.

+1 (though I would recommend the helmet now and the roller mount/camera in a couple hundred jumps... see the other thread for that argument) Would add the cut-away chin strap option. Become VERY familiar with the camera operation BEFORE you put it on your head. Then take it for a ride on your bike to be familiar with its operation and feel on your head before putting it in the plane. Practice using the cutaway system... it should be an instinctive EP. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...