jclalor

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)

im sorry, it wont happen again, my apologies.

The OT was not written in greek, but hebrew.

Quote*** they just swam deeper to the saltier depth I do not think they could survive the pressure.

The more I think about it, I think most of the fish would of been fucked.

Ignorance? Science and History in Genesis "Why should the Bible be believed concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when it is considered to be erroneously written as to points which admit of direct demonstration or unquestionable reasoning?" -- St. Augustine De Genesi ad literam i, 19 "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." God purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. "In the beginning" 1:1 When was the universe created? "In the beginning" 1:1-2 The Gap Theory The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3 God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5 God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8 Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11 God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11 In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14 God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16 "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16 "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17 In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24 God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26 God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28 "I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat." 1:29 All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30 "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31 In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31 Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7 After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-22 God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs. Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19 God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14 Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18 When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25 "There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants? 6:4 Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long. 6:14-15 Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8 God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11 All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14 The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20 "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2 Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11 When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19 Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21 "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1 According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2 "Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2 God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13 Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree. 10:25 "The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 11:1, 6 God worries that people could build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6 According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 11:9 The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32 "And they returned to the land of the Philistines." But the Philistines didn't arrive in the region of Canaan until around 1200 BCE -- 800 years after Abraham's supposed migration from Ur. 21:32, 26:1, 8, 15, 18 Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27 Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39 God (or an angel) praises Jacob for his fancy genetic work in Gen.30:37-39. 31:11-12 Joseph and his magic divining cup. 44:5, 44:15

Since there is way more salt water than fresh water I would ask how did all the fresh water fish survive? Then again, as mere mortals we should never EVER question the word of the creator, who is all knowing and powerful.

How about it's humorous to all us non believers. I didn't know you had permission to speak on behalf of jclalor, or all non-believers. How about it's humorous to all us non beleivers. How you can really read some of that stuff and keep a straight face it's beyond me. Have you looked at the site? Is there ANYTHING you find just plain silly? I now find my self wanting to know more about the bible as I find it truly fascinating how most Christian do not even know the language(s) it was written in or who even wrote it. The fact that the first book written in the NT was not even written until 50 years after Jesus's death and most others written even much later. The number of books written and not allowed in, The variations of books found that are very different from one another. How the four gospels all give different and conflicting accounts of Christ life.

Hollister to have a Beach 99 on Sunday 11/30. looking for fun jumpers and I think they are making deals on tandems.

I find this a very interesting site, if you have never seen it, take a look. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I dont think anyone is calling you a fool, I think the point of this thread, or at least it was my intention to point out that ID does not belong in public schools. Parents have more than enough time to teach thier personel belieifs in thier home, at thier church or where ever they see fit. I believe you can ignore ID in public schools just as you can ignore astrology, tarrot card reading, John Edwards and any other beliefe not supported by credible evidence.

For a start: Q: What is the proof of the existence of black holes? A: A black hole is an object so collapsed and, consequently, with such a large gravity field that its escape velocity exceeds the speed of light. Earth, for example, is not a black hole because our escape velocity--a measly 11 kilometers per second-is far less than light speed (300,000 km/s). Even spacecraft escape Earth. The more compact an object is, the higher its escape velocity. A black hole is so compact that-within a certain distance of it--not even light can escape. Therefore, we can't see it directly. Within that "certain distance" (called the event horizon) no information escapes. You ask for "proof" of black-hole existence. That's not exactly how it works. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity predicts the existence of black holes-as bizarre as they seem. We've verified Einstein's theory in many ways, which gives us confidence in its predictions. Consequently, we think such objects exist in the real world. His theory also gives us indirect ways--how gravity affects matter--to detect black-hole candidates. We verify that an object is a black hole by looking at its effects on the environment. Then we compare what we observe against effects of other known phenomena. The entity that can best explain these observations, in the simplest way, is the winner. Supermassive black holes: A disk that spins too rapidly for the number of stars it contains is a likely candidate. Without a dark and massive object in its middle, the disk would fly apart. That's one clue. Another indication is its size. We can estimate the size of the core from how the energy varies in time. Suppose the object's mass is a billion or better times the mass of our Sun but suppose it's size is only about that of our solar system. Then it is probably compact enough to be a black hole. More good clues pointing to a black hole: Does the star and gas speeds increase rapidly in the core? Does the matter form a disk? These observations, taken together, pinpoint an invisible object of colossal mass inside a compact space with an extraordinary gravitational field. Moreover, the object exhibits all the relativistic effects we know how to measure-nothing else fits: it's a black hole. Stellar-mass black holes: A dark star in a binary system (two stars orbiting each other) lends itself to solid analysis. We determine the mass of both stars from the orbital velocity of the visible star. The visible star's spectrum tells us its luminosity and radius and from that we can calculate its mass. Knowing the total mass of both stars and the mass of the visible one gives the mass of the dark one. The unseen companion can only be one of three things: a white dwarf (less than 1.4 solar masses), a neutron star (between 1.4 to 3 solar masses) or a black hole. Thus, if the dark star's mass is much greater than 3 solar masses (say, around 5 to 10), then it must be a black hole. We have great confidence that we have found stellar-mass black holes, even more so than for super massive black holes. Unconfirmed yet, but: on Jan. 11, 2001 Joseph Dolan of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center announced possible direct evidence of a black hole. He examined photographs taken by the Hubble Space Telescope of the black-hole candidate called Cygnus XR-1. Dolan found two instances where a hot gas blob appeared to be slipping past the event horizon (point of no return) for the black hole. That'sdirect evidence of a black hole. (Answered by April Holladay, science correspondent, May 22, 2002)

Keeping with the posts context, surely the concepts of ID and evolution should be taught with the conclusion being up to the student regarding his or her belief? I expect most to believe in evolution. But what of those who stubbornly continue to believe in a God of some form or other? Why would they - have they some kind of flaw in their character?*** We do not live in a theocracy, by all means teach YOUR children anything you like at home or in your church. NO ONE disputes your right to do this. I have never even brought up the subject of religion to my daughter, and now that she is in college, if she chooses religion, that will be HER own choice made as a critical thinking adult and not one that was indoctrinated in her since early childhood. Can you imagine if we never told children about god until thier late teens, and then we told them thier is this invisable man in the sky watching us and if we are good we will go up there and live forever with him, they would think we are nuts. Religion only works. because children are for lack of a better word brainwashed and this is how religion has pepetuated it's self.since the beginning of man.

There is an athiest who is walking out in the woods thinking evolution caused all of the beauty of the forest. Well along comes this 7 foot tall grizzley bear. The athiest turned around and saw the grizzly and screamed a bloodcurdling scream and runs up the hill. Then the grizzly starts chasing and closing in on him. Well just as the bear got ready to kill him he screamed save me God! Time stopped and a bright light shown in the sky and god said why should I save you after all these years of you teaching others I'm not real? The athiest replied, Lord it would be a hypocrocy to ask to be a christian now but could you at least make the bear christian? The Lord said O.K. Time started again and the bear took its paw away and put both together and said"Lord thank you for this food I am about to recieve Amen.

If you were writing this in the middle ages you would be saying " Scientist would have us believe that the earth rotates around the sun, the earth is round, and there is no such things as witches".

Thats all they did in the new draft was cross out creationism and put ID in it's place and bingo, they now had "science" They just never thought that the draft would be found.

Im guessing you did not watch the show, It was shown that ID was nothing more than creationism repackaged as science. The book of "Of pandas and people" was written to promote creationism in public schools but was later ruled illegal to use in public schools. So what do they do? Use the same book and just remove the word "creationism" and replace it with "ID" Judge Jones who ruled on the Dover case ( A staunch christian and Bush apointtee ) ruled that ID was NOT science and can not be taught in public schools. I was embarressed for the supporters of ID in this show, They were completly out classed, but I guess that happens when you try to put superstitions against science.

The show I think you are refering to is another Nova " The bible's buried secrets" This was also a very good show.

I think in Texas this kit also comes with a 9mm.

Shit 50 is young, we just had a guy finish AFF at age 69

Congrats on the A, it's a great feeling getting that under your belt. Slightly off topic, is it true Perris has a whole bunch of used gear for sale?

This is one of the best nova's that I have seen, if you get the chance, watch it. TV Program Description Original PBS Broadcast Date: November 13, 2007 In this program, NOVA captures the turmoil that tore apart the community of Dover, Pennsylvania in one of the latest battles over teaching evolution in public schools. Featuring trial reenactments based on court transcripts and interviews with key participants, including expert scientists and Dover parents, teachers, and town officials, "Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial" follows the celebrated federal case of Kitzmiller v. Dover School District. This two-hour special was coproduced with Paul G. Allen's Vulcan Productions, Inc. In 2004, the Dover school board ordered science teachers to read a statement to high school biology students suggesting that there is an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution called intelligent design—the idea that life is too complex to have evolved naturally and therefore must have been designed by an intelligent agent. The teachers refused to comply. (For more on this, see Board vs. Teachers.) Later, parents opposed to intelligent design filed a lawsuit in federal court accusing the school board of violating the constitutional separation of church and state. "There was a blow-up like you couldn't believe," Bill Buckingham, head of the school board's curriculum committee, tells NOVA. Buckingham helped formulate the intelligent-design policy when he noticed that the biology textbook chosen by teachers for classroom use was, in his words, "laced with Darwinism." NOVA presents the arguments by lawyers and expert witnesses in riveting detail and provides an eye-opening crash course on questions such as "What is evolution?" and "Is intelligent design a scientifically valid alternative?" Kitzmiller v. Dover was the first legal test of intelligent design as a scientific theory, with the plaintiffs arguing that it is a thinly veiled form of creationism, the view that a literal interpretation of the Bible accounts for all observed facts about nature. (See Defining Science and arguments for and against evolution.) During the trial, lawyers for the plaintiffs showed that evolution is one of the best-tested and most thoroughly confirmed theories in the history of science, and that its unresolved questions are normal research problems—the type that arise in any flourishing scientific field. U.S. District Court Judge John E. Jones III ultimately decided for the plaintiffs, writing in his decision that intelligent design "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." As part of his decision, Judge Jones ordered the Dover school board to pay legal fees and damages, which were eventually set at $1 million. (Hear Judge Jones read excerpts from his historic decision.) "Judgment Day captures on film a landmark court case with a powerful scientific message at its core," says Paula Apsell, NOVA's Senior Executive Producer. "Evolution is one of the most essential yet, for many people, least understood of all scientific theories, the foundation of biological science. We felt it was important for NOVA to do this program to heighten the public understanding of what constitutes science and what does not, and therefore, what is acceptable for inclusion in the science curriculum in our public schools." (Hear more from Paula Apsell on why NOVA took on this controversial subject.) For years to come, the lessons from Dover will continue to have a profound impact on how science is viewed in our society and how it is taught in the classroom.

***"What about the logic that a creation has a creator and that matter just doesn't appear out of thin air" Who was talking about creation?

You mean like the bootless comment " Have another one Barney? There has not been one scientific test evolution has failed, not one, every time it has been put to the test it has passed. Reality is far more facsinating than superstitions ever will. To think that some people still believe that Noah herded up the tens of millions of species on this planet and put them on an ark is just silly. I'm embarressed for them. Your saying most people can accept your logic is also silly, most people like Jerry Springer. The fact is the higher one is educated, the less apt they are to believe in creation. Back to the OP, what is it that scares the christians about billboards? If I thought I was ony on this planet for only a few years and then I went to paridise for eternity what would I care about what non believers did.

Do you mean like in the south when the voters did not want blacks to be able to ride in the front of the bus? The elected officials there were only acting on the will of the majority and thier percieved best interest. BTW There is this little document that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.