NovaTTT

Congratulations, Pat - and there ought to be lots of beer in 2 years!! "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

I presume you performed practice flares with this rig and learned at altitude that to fully flare you needed gorilla-length arms. If you find yourself in that position again, try an old F111 landing trick. Take a couple of wraps of brake line around each hand when you enter the landing pattern. This will effectively shorten the length of the line and give you a shorter, stronger flare stroke. Practice at altitude. You don't want to discover the stall-point at landing. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Wow - I am amazed at the apparent lack of comprehensive abilities this thread has exposed. Want something for free? Where did I say that? Answer: Nowhere. Where did I say not getting free X equals "bad" customer service? Answer: Nowhere. Fin "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Jason, I couldn't care less what you think about the value of my time because it's completely irrelevant. Since you don't know what I do or how I do it, you don't understand and frankly, if you did know, you still might not understand. I get that a lot. Pete, I don't have selfish needs. Did you read the other OP? I stand behind the sentiment but that's all. Jason and Pete: Please see the other post. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

You know, I've heard that before, Sparky. Shoulda paid attention. I've been with flu this week and today I awoke feeling right again. It's hard to describe how I felt wrong, other than to say I've been really sensitive and grumpy, although it felt like my mood was normal. So I popped online to see what's been going on with this thread and I see it's not what I wanted. That's not to say that I don't have an issue with how the rep treated me, but I recognize today that it wasn't something to bang a drum about. Suffice to say that posting online and the flu do not good partners make. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Maybe, Douglas, you've been in touch with another mod?? I don't expect everyone to have had a lackluster experience, but I know there are some who have. I've heard from them. I don't blame them for not posting in the forum. It gets hot in here! But I don't define P-G based on this one experience - I define their customer service on this. My experience has taught me that a corporate, or global, presence is established for CS within a company. I've never had to deal with P-G before, directly, so I as I said in the other OP, compared to other companies that I have dealt with directly, I was unimpressed with P-G. I'll use them when I have to, but as I said, it is my experience that CS attitudes are global within a company. It is my experience that it reflects the overall "personality" of a company. Perhaps when I'm over this hill I've been working my way up this week I'll feel differently about using P-G. But I won't feel differently about the poor service I got the other day. likestojump: I don't know what your issue is. I never said I expected anything. I don't feel entitled. What I have said is that I am willing to pay for what I want and I expect to get what I pay for. Nothing more or less. But in my last post to you, as you know, I was speaking from a business perspective. It takes promos, premiums and positive personal contact to elevate "adequate" or "normal" customer service to "good" or "great". It remains a dog-eat-dog world, moreso now than ever. So a company that is vested in keeping a client doesn't treat that customer poorly or make that customer have to shoulder the work to fix their mistake. That sort of customer appreciation and show of valuation goes a long way in the business cirlcles I navigate. Maybe you are not understanding what I consider to be a difference between business and personal tx? Regardless, except when, as in this case, the market is uncompetitive, it is also important in personal CS tx. In a market where there is no competition, one gets what one does. And one then posts in the G&R forum. Anyway, your conclusion is wrong. I don't know what the "entitlement generation" is, but I know I'm not part of it. I'm a Viet Nam era child and I know the value and ethic of work, so I guess that makes me part of the "works to earn and make his own way generation". But I'm not trying to educate you and I'm sure as hell not looking for validation from you. Right now, I'm simply wondering what is the bee in your bonnet? "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Please see the other OP - you're stating the bleedin' obvious. I don't need and am not soliciting advice on how to evaluate customer service and where to take my business. Please see the other OP. Therein I explained that P-G is the only supplier I know of for many tools and materiel. I also stated that I've used them many times before without difficulty. But that's not a measure of good CS - it's a measure of adequacy. I also explained that I will buy from P-G when necessary but when an option is present, I will buy elsewhere. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Since we're not considering P-G, I will relate to this accoding to my usual business needs and interactions. I do this all the time. I would consider your scenario "normal" and I would consider using that company in future. Were there no other contending candidates for widget supplies, I would contact them first. If there were contending candidates, who also provided normal tx, I would go with lowest cost provider. I would use this provider regardless of insignificant cost difference if their service was "good" or "great". In the above scenario, I think you are asking what would it take to elevate that to the level of "good", or "great". Well, normal is good, in that it is not bad. But "good" customer service would be to receive those widgets along with a coupon for 10% off my next order of widgets in excess of x$. Sometimes the offer is for free shipping. "Great" would be the same as "good", but a rep would call to inquire about the shipment, ask about my current and future widget needs, and make sure I know he is available to me in future for service. But we're supposed to be talking about P-G customer service so I don't know why you want to know my philosophy on corporate customer relations. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Maybe, April - but it's a pharmacy. They have the ability to fill another bottle with that Rx and find the missing bottle as soon as they can. Their response was 100% guided by good customer relations policy. It wasn't a critical med. For me, it was flu med, for her - well, HIPPA won't let me reveal it!! Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Thanks for the laugh, Jason. And I'm sorry for crediting another's words to you. Thanks for collating the thoughts with their respective recipient. I've gone back and removed you from that post. The Comparative Advantage I remarked on in the other thread can be simply stated as: If a person doesn't feel what they are getting is worth what they are paying, they won't pay it. So it's not my word or anything to do with me other than providing a product and/or service for a cost. That I have loyal, repeat clients as well as good referral business, I'm not threatened by the LCA. I just don't understand why you're so concerned about my business and how I spend my time. likestojump: I don't really understand what you want to know. Your question was answered in the other OP. Your question isn't about customer service - it's about order processing, accounts receivable and shipping. Who has a problem with getting what they pay for and expect?? I just don't understand what you're looking for. If you're asking why I consider my recent experience with P-G to be "poor", rather than "normal" or "good", it's because it wasn't "normal" or "good". It's not about getting the things I ordered - that was never an issue. It's about the customer relations related to the small problem associated with that tx. It's about putting the burden on the customer, which is IMO ass-backward. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Dearest likestojump: You haven't heard me bitch violently or otherwise. I did give an honest and unemotional accounting of an experience with P-G. Since you haven't seemed to follow the other thread, let me give a quick recap. I am in NY. P-G is in IL. I ordered with door-to-door delivery. I want convenience and I paid for it. Similarly, I want the same convenience with any subsequent tx. But that's not what the other OP was about. What do I consider great customer service? Not service that is as it should be, nor the same with a smile. I consider great customer service getting all that plus whatever else, if and when necessary, that the customer is not burdened by the tx. Just the other day my pharmacist gave me the wrong Rx. When I opened the bag and learned of the mistake, I called them and it seemed that before I could offer to bring the other person's Rx back they had someone on the way to my house to exchange the bottles. That is an example of what I consider to be excellent customer service. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Interesting. Opinions and assholes, however. But fear not, hourly-wagers and/or intrepid DotCommers. The Law of Economizing and Comparative Advantage ensures my client's get their money's worth. And excellent customer service. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

You ordered something (online?), received it and it was correct and correctly billed. Where is the customer service there? You're describing order processing, accounts receivables and shipping. With no personal contact. Since when did a person or company doing their job as it ought to be done constitute "great"? "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Um....no, Terry. A simple thank you isn't praise. It's a courteous acknowledgment of another's effort. I was raised and brought my kids up knowing that honesty is its own reward, and in personal matters that is more than enough for me. But in customer relations, there is a need to care for that customer. Is the customer always right? Of course not. Should the customer always be left feeling valued? In most cases, and good businesses make sure they do. Have you never had somebody do you a favour, Terry? Did you say thank you? Is that praise?? I am getting a real kick out of this thread and I'm increasingly thrilled I made the OP. I didn't post "Shitty Service!", or "I Got Screwed!!" I posted "poor" and "lackluster" to describe the semi-rude, thankless and unapologetic (except for one anemic and almost undelivered sorry) service. The imaginations and seeming inability to understand the OP by most subsequent posters is causing me terrific amusement! And Pash: you assume too much in trying to understand my brief comment about the value of my time. My comment, while accurate, is made only to counterpoint the "bill for $1" comment. No need trying to recreate an elephant from examining a hair. Post more, though! I'm loving it and the bandwidth is here to be used - it's like air. It's a valuable commodity when it's in short supply but otherwise, use it at will. Finally, nothing has been added to this by subsequent posts that wasn't included in the OP. That's what I find so funny! I'm not looking for advice or reviews (but they're welcome, I assure you!). Like Sparky mentioned, a discussion of CS about this vendor seems the logical way to progress. Logic and skydivers: it's not just a fantasy combination. Is it? Nova PS to Pash: Apropos nothing, time and the value thereof isn't measured for all of us in how many swings of the hammer we make, how many screws we turn or how many papers we shuffle. My time is valuable to me - as anyone's time is valuable to himself. But there is a thing called multi-tasking and while jotting this post, I also billed several Benjamins. It's like Janis said: Get it while you can. (edited to add: In Reply To) "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

No, you didn't get it right - at all. Clearly you didn't read my OP; and if you did, you clearly missed the point. And ignoring the percentage profit, I just don't think $151.30 is going to constitute "enduring a loss" for P-G. I brought my OP, unemotional and factual, for the same reason I have posted positive comments about other's customer service. I don't care if you disagree with my assessment of what customer service should be. Quote from OP: Making that comparison, I am singularly unimpressed with P-G. In fact, I am truly disappointed at their poor customer service and couldn’t-care-less-as-long-as-we’re-ok attitude. End Quote Your threshhold for whining is pretty low, mate. But I had to laugh at crazydiver's cost analysis. Were I to back-charge for a reasonably average hourly rate, for the 3/4 hour I will spend returning the package, I will bill 24 times the $9 you would earn for that time. So maybe my time is more valuable? Or maybe I just don't like getting the semi-rudeness and "I don't want to bother with a customer, just send us back our shit" attitude I experienced. A little gratitude goes a long way. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Again, nothing any other poster is saying wasn't mentioned in my OP. I've spoken with them, I'm handling the situation and I am passing along information. Para-Gear sells everything - that doesn't mean they rock. I wasn't going to post about this until I realized they didn't bother sending the email I was told to expect from them. I had to search through the e-trash to find the thing. Judging from the PMs I've received, I'm not the only person who feels P-G doesn't give a shit about customers, only the $. I'm happy for all those who have good experiences with them, but I did not. Yes, a simple thank you and follow through goes a long way. Showing consideration for a customer goes a long way. That's the takeaway, folks. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

My experiences have before been positive - because there has never been an issue. I don't see what is difficult to understand here. First - it's not $1.70. That was part of a larger order. And yes, I do spend a large amount of money on supplies and materiel, not that it's any of your business. Nonetheless, a customer is a customer. Second - it's not about being sugar-coated. It's about being appreciated right up front. It's about a "thank you" and a, "I'm sorry". It's about showing consideration and appreciation for a customer. As I posted, I've had difficulties or inquiries in the past with other companies which were handled beyond reasonable satisfaction. That shows excellent regard for the customer. And it wasn't more than a hassle to me. It's money to them. I am doing them a good deed by being myself: honest and showing integrity. That alone is worthy of a "thank you", in my book. So if you read the OP, you will see that I've already addressed all the issues that have been brought up by subsequent posters: I know it's not a big deal, I know mistakes happen, I know that I will end up with everything I ordered. But just as each of you puts value and importance on the things you do, so do I. My project being delayed is not earth-shattering, but it's important to me and my time is just as valuable to me as yours is to your. I'll screw off by choice or design if I want to. I don't like to have it wasted any more than you like to have yours. Edited to add: Yes, a minor issue, but one that illustrates lackluster customer service but great self-service. I've seen no shortage of people praising good CS and I see nothing unfair in posting to the contrary. As I said originally, given the choice, I will shop elsewhere. It's called sharing information. Take it FWIW. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

You may not be important, and neither may I be, but I consider myself as a paying customer more important than you seem to consider yourself. Maybe you didn't actually read my post. It's an accounting - as plain and unvarnished as the praising posts I have made concerning good CS of other providers. As a paying customer, I expect to get what I pay for - nothing more, nothing less. And I'm willing to pay for what I want and get. The OP is about poor customer service. I wasn't thanked, although an unscrupulous person could have kept the 100 yds and said nothing. I wasn't apologized to for the inconvenience, although there was an anemic apology at the very last. P-G didn't even email an acknowlegment of the problem. Maybe that's OK service for you, but it's not for me. Maybe good customer service isn't important to you, but it is to me. When somebody screws up and I have to do the work to fix it, then yes, I expect an apology. I expect to be thanked. I expect to be treated as a valued customer. I don't expect a blowjob - that's asinine. I expect a "Thank you", a UPS truck at my door and a "We're sorry for the mistake. Hope you'll stay with us in future." Judging from the PMs I've received, I'm not the only one who feels P-G is seriously lacking in terms of customer care and valuation. Nova "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

As part of a larger order with Para-Gear, I last week ordered one yard of Type VIII webbing. What I got, on Friday, was one entire spool (100 yds), new and unopened. It’s a costly mistake, sending me a $153 billable spool of material for $1.70. The project I’m working on is now delayed, because I don’t have usable Type VIII. I’m not willing to just open and cut from this new spool. I had to wait until Monday to call about the mix-up because P-G is closed on the weekends. I called Monday and spoke with a rep who quickly understood the situation and put me on hold. Upon returning, she offered to have the spool shipped back, less my three feet, which she said I can cut from the spool. P-G will pick up the return shipping and reimburse me for the original shipping overcharge. I confirmed my e-addy, and thanked her. It was a seamless, 1-2-3 interaction: DIDO. The last thing she said to me was, “And I’m sorry about this”, and it was the only time acknowledging my being inconvenienced came up. And I don’t recall her thanking me for working to promptly return their material. Technically, everything is covered, but I am left having a delayed project and the hassle of having to deal with the screw up, sorting it out, and returning the spool. And I am irritated that there wasn’t gratitude for my show of integrity nor an acknowledgement of me, the customer, being inconvenienced by their screw-up. No, “O wow! I’m so sorry! Thank you for calling. Let’s make this right.” No, “Well, we know your time is important and valuable; what can we do to fix this?” When I first opened the package, recognized the mistake and thought about it, I foresaw three possible outcomes. #1 Worst-Case: They would tell me to just keep the spool, which is useless to me. I can’t use this much Type VIII! #2 Neutral-Case: What happened. #3 Best-Case: What happened, with a small gesture of consideration and gratitude. But in my thoughts about these scenarios, I expected to be treated as a customer inconvenienced. They screwed up. It is understandable, but it is nonetheless inconvenient for me, the customer. I expected an apology right up front, maybe one in the middle, and certainly one at the end. I expected to be thanked for showing honesty and consideration toward them. What I got was lackluster customer service that left me feeling they care about getting their shit back but not their customer. A real cog-on-the-wheel experience. And I was doing them a solid! The rep said they would send me an email detailing how to return the spool along with a shipping label. They didn’t bother to even email! The email I received was from a UPS service and it wasn’t easily recognizable as being related to this matter. That email contained a link to the shipping label and strict instructions for how I should package and return the parcel….delivered to their facility! NO AUTHORIZATION FOR PICK UP!!! I am expected to drive to the UPS facility to drop off the package! That is the icing on this particular cake. I don’t know where this falls on the broader scale of customer service in the skydiving community, because I have limited personal experience with providers‘ problem solving or inquiry resolution. I can compare, however, to the ones that I do know where they fall on the scale (which is high, such as Alti-2, Chuting Star, The Relative Workshop, Aerostore, Paraconcepts, L&B). Making that comparison, I am singularly unimpressed with P-G. In fact, I am truly disappointed at their poor customer service and couldn’t-care-less-as-long-as-we’re-ok attitude. I’ll purchase again from P-G, because they are the only provider I know for certain materiel and tools, but when a choice is available, I will choose to take my business elsewhere. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

I use the Stanley Tool Organizer. A few minor modifications and it's working great for keeping all the essential tools, plus plenty of room for items I like to keep with me, such as spare closing loops, ripstop tape, swiss links, flashlight.... "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Looks to me like Banesanura "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

(1) Perhaps. (2) Yes. For the purpose of this discussion, we'll say the Skyhook is attached to approximately the center (lengthwise) of the reserve bridle. A ripcord pull will release the pilot chute and the bridle will pay-out normally to the Skyhook attachment point. If the 4x thread doesn't break, the bridle is then attached to the harness by the Skyhook vis the RSL. There might be enough drag on the bag-end of the bridle for the freebag to be extracted and the reserve deploy. But there is still the freebag/bridle/pilot chute attached by the Skyhook & RSL. Thoughts of entanglements and nasty deployments come to mind. The examination of this 4x attachment is speculative, although 50 lbs force, while it may not seem like much, certainly could inhibit, retard or prevent a clean reserve deployment. I'd also like to know if UPT experimented with multiple turns of thread and what were the results of those tests. Mark Klingelhoefer might know. Are you following this thread, Mark? "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

I agree completely - but the majority of tandems, in my experience and imo, aren't students. They are one-time thrill-seekers who want to make a skydive, mark it off their list, and get on with their life. Many of them, perhaps most of them, claim they will be back for student progression, but that's just adrenaline and post-thrill high talking. Very few become students, in my experience. Student acquisition will come largely from a different population and student retention issues are as old as the sport. You're right that the tandem discussion (merits, training, purpose, and the changes/effects it is having on the sport [both positive and negative]) is for another thread. But I'm too damned lazy to jump into that behemoth. ...and now back to the scheduled thread, already in progress... "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Well, Douglas, I guess you know how I feel based on my last post. It would be nice if we could have a mechanism to qualify candidates based on real-world criteria, such as ability to teach, stay sober, and perform critical duties without negligence. The can of worms that would open. . . if it even could be opened. With USPA regulating but having no actual authority, we'd have to allow the FAA to become the governing authority, or USPA would have to become an arm (tentacle?) of the FAA so as to have real authoritative power. The scope of this simple concept quickly becomes too great to be implemented, nor could it be effective, imo. Maybe we're at a Xroads, or up against a wall, but as the sport progresses it might just come to be that the need for true, uniform instructor certification will give rise to FAA oversight (which isn't very likely) or the void will be filled by a USPA led and run university-style instructor certification program. Maybe there will be recognized the difference between skydiving instruction and carnival ride operation and separate certification standards will be adopted. A real separation between tandem riding and skydiving instruction. The qualifications shouldn't be the same for tandem v AFF/SL/IAD/TP because these are different activities. A tandem ride giver doesn't need to be able to instruct, and it's probably pointless anyway. We don't need to know the mechanics behind the ride when we get on a roller coaster, we just need the basics. It's the same for the majority of tandems. Thorough, basic presentation of what's to come, but that's not instruction. Preparing a student for AFF, SL, IAD or even TP requires thorough specific instruction from a qualified, rated, capable instructor. So we're back to the beginning - instructor candidate vetting. We know it won't be solved here in the forums, but in the end it will probably be written in blood. Until then, I guess it's up to the DZO to choose. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73