georger

The National Geo Advertising Channel didnt run it here. Instead we are on the first repeat of UNIBOMBER. Next up: HOW I FOUND THE ANTHRAX KILLER ... and 30 mins of drug, insurance, and AARP ads. So... Ive switched over and am watching "3 Obama Elvis on Three Nymphos"... a western.

(edit) I'm wondering if the main interviewing of SOG was done in 1972. If Billy had "disappeared" or was not findable, would that mean he wasn't interviewed? Did anyone know where he was? I wonder if they might have guessed it was Billy and he was dead? Strange. What "main interviewing"? They who? Or are you just making this up?

The issue from the beginning has been where did Cooper bail and land. The truth is: Nobody knows. If they knew this case would have been closed long ago. Evidence is not that hard to find. If it exists at all! The evidence does not exist because a decision was made, consciously or unconsciously, to wait until evidence presented itself. The search for hard evidence (Cooper & the money) stopped almost immediately after the Lake Merwin search failed. I believe the decision to stop the hard search was made as an overt act of avoidance by certain people wishing to avoid what they feared most - that Cooper had survived, at least long enough to move for a time trying to escape. The premature decision that "Cooper died" has been central to the FBI's whole case, and it is the one thing the FBI has never wanted to be proven wrong. A decision was made to do nothing and wait. Then the money turned up on its own, at Tina Bar. People scrambled, literally! Once again a very poor investigation followed in haste, perhaps purposefully rushed, but with a big flurry and many people involved (just as at Lake Merwin). It is almost as if they wished the money to be buried again so it could vanish under a poor investigation, avoiding the central issues at stake. A team of 3-5 people could have done a better job at Tina Bar vrs. the mob and the roadshow that was assembled, for media consumption. At every stage "somebody" in the FBI has been calling the wrong shots, almost as if trying to prove something in a great display of power and prowess, but avoiding slow methodical sober investigative technique in the process - and the roadshow continues to this very day. It all adds up to AVOIDANCE. Ocam's Razor has been dulled to the point that it looks like an old rusty nail from the 1800s! The avoidance is: that Cooper died, was an halfass, and didn't get away even for the space of a few hours. The Washougal Washdown Theory is part-and-parcel of that same worn out petard. A power struggle has even developed to protect the cherished old theory. The problem with the Washougal washdown theory is that is forces us to accept a series of very complex low probability events over time, in order to get anything to Tina Bar. And it preserves the "he died" theory Himmelsbach has promoted since Day-1. Larry Carr's rationalisations are simply an extension of the Himmelsbach theory. I thought Larry was smarter! The condition of the money at Tina Bar does not support the long complex washdown theory required by the Washougal theory. I dont even believe Palmer believed the theory, but was simply parroting a theory which others had already suggested. Because there is nothing that connects Tina Bar with the Washougal exclusively. There is literally nothing in the money that cries "I came from the Washougal". And there are other aspects of the money which suggest 'I could not have traveled that far and survived a highly destructive trip lasting years'. I have no doubt the money was deposited at Tina Bar by hydrological flow. The only question is from where and when. I think it was a relatively short travel distance, and that implies Cooper did not die and moved (perhaps trying to get back to Portland for help) after his jump. The money did not come from the Washougal. The money came from Cooper. Cooper was in flight. He may have been injured but he still had the money up to some point. The money was protected for some time thereafter still in its container, but not in the Washougal. Once the money or some remnant of the money was at Tina Bar the money took on unmistakable traits of being at Tina Bar. I have no problem and several reasons for believing the money may have arrived at Tina Bar in the period 1978-80, but not from the Washougal. I believe the Palmer report is incomplete. I believe there is more evidence in his strata photos than Palmer chose to unravel - because he was working to produce a quick result for people who wanted a quick simple result that fit their preconceptions. I believe any "objective" analysis of the data will support these points of view, whether conducted by Mr. Kaye or whoever else. I have reservations that a diatom analysis will prove anything other than the money was a Tina Bar - for a long period of time. I also happen to believe that an isotope analysis will prove the money has no known association with the Washougal. And I believe this is the last thing the FBI wants to hear.

He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy. He feels, it did not take a skilled person to get as far as Cooper did in his crime. He believes that back then if you made a demand it was complied with and that was common knowledge. It took limited knowledge to jump, die and disappear. It took considerable knowledge to jump, live and disappear. I think everybody needs to back up, take a breath, and swallow the anti-Nancy Grace venom pill. Because with the above we have clearly entered Ninny-Nanny- Noo-Noo Landt, uber alles! The FBI could track and find McCoy (special forces) but they couldn't track and find Joe Schmo (retard)? Is this what Ckret is saying? Let me remind Larry the burden is not on us. The burden is on the FBI.... and their spokes-people. A forensic psychologist would have a field day with this. I am not one but will play one. (1) Cooper displayed skills and a skill set. (2) Cooper made independent judgements and displayed the capability for flexibility and correct decision making, all completely independent of what other people did, but in an effective response at times to what others did or did not do. (3) Cooper jumped. (4) Cooper jumped, if not in the area at least in the time zone he wanted to jump in. Cooper did get the stairs working, on his own. (5) Cooper mounted an effective defense of his demands and himself. (6) Cooper's choice of flight 305 was NOT a random accident. (7) (Cooper choice of name may not have been an accident). (8) Cooper managed the evidence he left behind. (9) Cooper's behavior facilitated his plan & his goals. (10) Cooper chose methods which others later demonstrated could work. (11) Cooper demonstrated at least an average IQ and at least normal physical skills (or better). Cooper displayed considerable emotional stability under stress. (12) Cooper's act revealed definate flaws in systems design and in people comprising those systems, including FBI personnel. That's a pretty good list of accomplishments for a halfass.

He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy. He feels, it did not take a skilled person to get as far as Cooper did in his crime. He believes that back then if you made a demand it was complied with and that was common knowledge. It took limited knowledge to jump, die and disappear. It took considerable knowledge to jump, live and disappear. Larry's comment is not analytical, but designed to provoke comment, and a comment about how systems worked in 1971 vis-a-vis individuals and security. By this definition every employee in any system in the world was "halfass" in 1971, and still is! And the "system" in 1971 allowed people with bombs in briefcases to pass right through airports on to planes with a smile and a free drink, but then the same system could jerk itself into awareness and "save the day" .... except in the DB Cooper case? Larry seems to be saying "the system" which includes NWA and the FBI and who knows who-else, actually brought the Cooper affair to a successful conclusion and killed Cooper, halfass jackass that he was and nothing more. Is that what Larry is saying? In other words the doors were wide open in 1971. The doors are closed today because we are smarter- wiser. Cooper relied on doors being open since he lacked personal smarts and skills. He did not see the opportunity in the first place because: The Cooper hijacking was all an accident conducted by an energised zombie (Cooper), on a day when odds flipped and all aces turned right side up, because there are eclipses every now and then ... the odds were in control. Cooper was an energized zombie. Otherwise he would have fallen asleep at the airport and forgot to board the plane, or once on the plane would have fallen asleep in the back, only to have Rataczak bop him on the head with a Coke@ bottle. Case closed. The money turned up at Tina Bar because Himmeslbach lost his wallet! Jerry Thomas has actually found evidence but its being kept Top Ckret! And Tom Kaye knows all of this from his analysis and will publish in 2094 on June 37th! Meanwhile a plague of cellulose eating diatoms has invaded the Northeastern Quadrant of the United States and all Cooper files will be lost by next Wednesday! But Tina and Cooper actually did have a personal exchange. Tina turned to Cooper just before departing and said: "Dan? I have a question I need to ask." Dan replied, "Ok. Tina, what is it". And Tina said, "Dan. Is there really a Hell?". Dan looked deeply into Tina's eyes and replied, "Yes Tina. Hell is other people".

Existential and logical fallacies are value empty - in your Maldum Fornax.

Nice guy! well, so what is the history of the square jawed stocky Cooper .... ??? sketch released at Reno??? I know nothing about this -

well Waugh is 377 and your arguement. You guys defend it? Snowman Snowman he's our man - if he cant do it 377 can! Im not even sure of the history of the rightmost FBI photo - one released at Reno before the leftmost photo issued at Portland became the standard FBI portrait of Cooper? Of the leftmost square jaw stocky Cooper photo, I know nothing.

Illustrate. Which drawing? Proof. georger, you were the guy with the contact that had the fancy computer comparison machine. we could just gather up the images, and send them to your guy, and he'll give us back a number. Don't need 377's interpretation. Why would you rely on 377's interpretation if you're looking for "data"....the data is the images. You have them. Process them any way you like. 377 already has (his eyes and mind). You disagree. So find another process. I assume its this photo 377 is referring to: Did Sluggo originally post this?

However, Billy W looks so much like the drawings. He is a much better match than Gosset who was a pretty decent match. 377 Illustrate. Which drawing? Proof.

Ive talked about organisational issues before. The loss of leadership at the top, or disorganisation at the top, tends to reinforce standard protocols and working relationships in an organisation for those who have the responsibility for enforcing standard protocols & keeping things together. I would assume Regional Supervisors assumed more organisational power (as they usually do during periods of transition). Where was H and his supervisor in the organisational chart during this period? I have wondered about that also - Put another way: like the old highschool cheer goes... Harry can do it he's our man. If Harry cant do it Charly can. Charly Charly he's our man, if Charly cont do it, Bobby can ... and so on. But put the spotlight on airlines also, during this period. Cooper's stunt starts with the airlines. The FBI came on the scene only after the mess was already created!

Larry was wrong in ruling out Nam vets and expert jumpers, but I see it more as an incorrect guess than a falsehood. 377 I'm not sure he did rule out Vietnam vets, or any other ideas. If you go back and read his posts what he wanted was "proof", whatever the assertion or idea was. He asked for proof. The issue with Vietnam was Cooper's projected age. Ckret was relying heavily on witness physical descriptions of Cooper. He said those descriptions were in tight agreement.

And Cooper pulled his stunt during down time when systems were down, for all practical purposes, then vanishes into a fog in an area where Nature herself may have swallowed him - and everyone wants him identified and found! Not even airport security! He walks into a metropolitan airport with a bomb in his brief case. He isnt even asked to open the brief case. (Better security that year in Kindergartens!). I think a lot of people care about Cooper, still. The Cooper case. But what do you go on? Where exactly do you look except for what somone as passionate and dedicated as Jerry can come up with? You know as well as I do if someone came up with something certain, Jerry would there at 4:00am tomorrow looking... come hell or high water. I keep thinking there is some good soul in the FBI or wherever who has the same passion and dedication, and someone else with a really good idea, and its just a matter of putting them together. History isnt going to let this case die. History is people.

well, then apply your own nonlinear algorythm to your own thoughts... about Ckret! Take your own advice. Ckret's only failure so far as I know was perhaps trying to shovel too much coal with too small a shovel, and relying on people who frankly did not live up to their advertising - ME BEING ONE! Let's get real about this case! Ckret is NOT sitting in Seattle with volumes of indexed info about the Cooper case which specifies things down to the level of microns and how many hairs were on some flea at 2:30pm PST, 11-29-71 porior to biting Dog X at 4:19AM PST on 11-30-71, all recorded on radar! Such files do not exist! I keep telling you this. Such information does not exist, anywhere. Let Ckret off the hook! No FBI agent caught DB Cooper! The FBI as a body failed to find Cooper or even delineate the flight path down to the resolution of 1 mile. It is as simple as that. Its a piece of information here, another one there, volumes of agent reports, reports on reports on reports and a ton of people groping for straws, others not doing the work they wish ten years later they might have done, etc etc etc. The system was people. People have flaws. If you want to get pissed at someone and hurl charges, get pissed at Cooper. He started this whole mess! Remember Ckret took this mission on as an after thought. Chasing Cooper 37 years late is NOT Ckret's fulltime regular job, not even remotely. If you were in his shoes I seriously doubt you would do better, or even hold up. There are things about the Cooper case that would have defied solution by any invesigative body, even the CIA, MI5, KGB ... not to mention the lack of hard evidence. The FBI cant do it all. The FBI depends on a lot of other people doing their jobs. If those people do incomplete work (or whatever) guess who gets stuck with the lousy end of the stick - the FBI. This is how the real world works. It did then and it still does. These are real flesh and blood people who arent perfect 24-7. That's how Nature designed it. We are lucky to be here.

You might be right Georger. But which measurements? The 5'9" height is from Waugh's own description of himself. Are you talking about head measurements? Why do you say that georger? Do you have more info than I've posted? If so, be nice to post. I have no "proof" of anything, but given normal rotation times and the dates in question, given Waugh's rank and affiliations, I think its safe to assume Mr. Waugh was very busy doing other things on the date in question and could prove that quite easily. I am NOT going to bug the man or anyone else about it - who am I to bug anyone about anything! I also believe Mr Waugh does NOT meet the physical criteria for having been Cooper - by a long way! I also believe Mr Waugh does not meet the pscyhological criteria for having been Cooper - by a long long way. In fact, I believe Mr, Waugh is precisely the kind of person who would qualify as a technical expert you might bring in to help the FBI is assessing Cooper's performance. These facts as I see them separate Waugh from having been Cooper by many light years. I have other reasons which are even stronger. Mr. Waugh was not DB Cooper. Period. Bradon wasn;t either.

377 You see I dont think Waugh fits at all. But I havent done measurements. Have you and should you? That would be the evidentiary thing to do. I did for Duane (with his elf ears). I seriously doubt Waugh was even available to be in Portland to do the hijacking on that date. We have to up the standards here. We need to require people to present "proof",or at least what they consider their proof. Ckret asked people tdo that and got nothing back but ridicule from Snowmman! Snowmman hasnt presented any proof! At least Safe tried an approach using his logic. Jerry says C was right handed. Where is his proof? People are entitled to be wrong! Somebody be wrong here for a change!! Present the proof that comes out wrong! I would love that for a change.

You see thats the difference btwn you and me. I find Waugh interesting as it might apply to Cooper, but "might" is remote as I assess it, so I dont spend much time on it. Bradon interested me more but that also is dispensed with and explained. Every time we go through this exercixe we wind up back where we started, with nothing that trully changes Ckret's profile of Cooper. I was frankly hoping Safe might apply some logic to this. He hasnt so far. One thing I should say is the socalled Dream Team, so far as I know it, was not granted many special favors or special info. We had to work for every thing we got. I think Tom would confirm this. And in one glaring case we wound up behind the eight ball precisely because we either were not given important info, or we screwed up not asking for the right info, ourselves. That is history now. It simply happened as an accident on everyone's part. This experience has lead me to wonder exactly what the FBI has because if it hasn't much more than we know about to date, then thousands of man hours of effort produced ... a lot of nothing? To the extent this is literally true then Cooper really was a mystery, to everyone. Professionals and amateurs alike. But why would it take 37 years for someone in authority to come out and simply say so if this is the case. Im not placing blame on anyone's shoulders so no one should take this personally, but is this is the deep mystery I suspect it may be, then by the same token nobody should act like "they" are in sole possession of the truth, when in fact they are as deep in doubt and lack of results as we are! And if so, why not just admit it.

all good points. All valid points. I rushed. Have to check the new impact spots on Jupiter tonight so will be back later.

Well if it isnt obvious ... does it even need explaining? We are in gridlock and there is no good way out short of somebody getting their feelings hurt and upset, with one set to hurl accusations, et cetera. It is the reason I have withdrawn, because there is no good solution - we are in literal gridlock. Jerry Thomas represents __________ at the highest level. Everything Jerry has or knows comes directly from ____________. How this all fits with what other FBI personnel have said and done, God only knows. I sure don't. But, I'm not going to get caught in the middle! Jerry presents no "evidence". Jerry only gives information. If Jerry says "Cooper was X" and someone says "Cooper was Z", Jerry is going to say, "No. Someone is wrong". Because, Jerry's information is coming directly from ....... the highest authority! I cant say anything without evidence behind it here. Jerry can say anything without evidence here. Jerry's evidence is "secret". How this dilemma gets resolved is why I have stuck in this forum for months, waiting. It's the only reason I have stayed here. I don't know how this gets resolved or even if it can be resolved. Because the issue is not just between Jerry and us, the issue is between Jerry and H and the rest of the FBI, and I did not create this situation. This is a bad situation some will try to take advantage of. Two people here have already done it. Jerry sees the problem but can't resolve it himself. So this forum can go on forever and debate and research and have it all add up to nothing because at the end of the day all Jerry has to do is surface and say "No. You are all wrong". That is the gridlock; it was built into the very fabric of the Cooper case itself right from the beginning. Jerry may have the true facts in this case, but no evidence will ever be presented. The socalled evidence is being protected, like the Pope protects old books and papers! That is not science but it is social reality.

Its no insult. I just dont have any more time for this. You have many experts here and more on the way. Snowmman, 377, Jo, Cousin Bruce, Orange1, any of whom can resolve the last remaining details in a case already solved. Good luck. Stay frosty.

I know the above is your position. I will just stop and expect the FBI Director and Ralph to announce the case is solved ad closed. That means I dont have to come here any more! Congratulations. Case closed. All fools can now go back to the scheduled program. Sorry for the unscheduled inconvenience.

I am no longer Snow's hired publicist/PR hack Georger. Michael Jackson's man took my job. I have, however, met Snow and you really have him all wrong. I don't expect you to believe me. His posts give few clues to the real Snowmman. 377 It still comes out as a tyrany that is damned near impossible to live with, day to day. Very soon you and Snow will all be alone here. Thats a flat out prediction - The DB Cooper case isnt that precious to me! So enjoy it while it lasts.

Jerry, a few things you say are just wrong. Cooper did not start the hijack era. He was not even the first - one predated his by two weeks and some people believe Cooper was a copy cat. And Cooper was not the last. There is a long list of things Cooper did right for his hijack to work. There is no proof whatever that his bomb was not real. It is suspected his red sticks may have been road flares, but no actual proof. Some dynamite in that era was in fact red; that is fully documented. The final word on the bomb has not been written and you can take that to the bank. Whatever Cooper's bankground he made some excellent choices which clearly fall outside the range of it being pure accident. Cooper wrote his demands and instructions down leaving no doubt about what his basic demands were - almost like a bank robbery. For the most part he stayed silent after that and used Mucklow to do his communicating for him, up to the point of his departure. He chose flight 305. He targeted that flight and day and time and kept to his schedule. He knew the weather before he even stepped into the airport. He was an active willing participant in this hijacking at every step. His dress was by choice and not an accident. I really think it is time to get beyond all the stereotyping that goes on in this case. These are my opinions.

Not sure when youw ere at Walmart last! I see most young married broke kids there trying to get by! You however probably prefer credit cards and bailouts ... and fuck the economy and everyone. You're special. O'Dumba loves you! There seem to be a whole bunch of things you just dont know about, in life. Oh well...

Cossey may be right! Be interesting to ask Cossey "Could anyone have survived using that rig? Who?" You seem to be missing a basic point made over and over by the old timers. HARD PULL on those old chutes was RELATIVE. Let me draw a comparison for you so you finally "gEt it". When America was rural, everyone went to country schools. Pot belly coal fired stoves. Everyone had soot on them. Just a fact of how things were and how technology was. Life was "hard" by modern urban standards. Cars could only do 25mph at max on the few roads that existed... most of them board plank roads - clatter clatter clatter. Old NB6 chutes overstuffed with an NB8 canopy equals = = = = = = = HARD PULL. Hard pull was taken for granted by those in that generation. Most chutes packed by whoever were hard pull. There were few fancy-dancy-artsy-fartcy sky diver clubs. Most people learned to parachute in the military if at all. HARD PULL was relative and often to be expected. So, conclusion: HARD PULL must be judged generationally. To you and fellow neo-zoom-weavies from the Gen-X flostum generation club, HARD PULL would be a bad thing. You probably would die. HARD PULL to Jerry and Cossey and others, the real men, would be nothing - expected, dealt with, the normal course of events as old parachutes go. So, when you are judging Cooper "scientifically" do damned-well need to take into account the possibility of a guy who learned the old way, knew NB6's and NB8's and the like, and maybe had even jumped off his barn with Grandma's quilt over his head... into the straw pile, as a kid. Because IF Cooper was in his mid to late 40's then the foregoing is a distinct possibility. The same goes for any possible military training - old school. Cooepr had never heard or seen DIGITAL when it comes to his world and parachutes of HIS TIME, and his time is all that matters here. You wont find Cooper at WALMART! Have I made my point? Have I made my point well? Do you have any questions?