snowmman

I would also note that Billy is #3 for me, in terms of musing about suspects. #1 was stupid of me. #2 was a good hit, but I've accepted that he's not Cooper. So I've been thru the mental gyrations you get when you land on something that matches what you're looking for. All 3 were different profiles. So it kind of matters what kind of profile you feel strongly about. I agree #3 has the best sketch match, both 1971 and the advanced age sketch (which was surprising to me..I hadn't checked that. Thanks sluggo) (edit) Oh p.s. I provided some examples of 1-0 and 1-1 RT leaders other than Billy. My take on my small subset, is that they were all different sorts of folks..i.e. it's not just that I landed on a typical RT guy. Some mainstreamed very quickly post vietnam. Some stayed in military. Billy's interesting in how he got hooked up with CIA in '77. He's a bit of a braggart too. The other guys don't seem to be as much. Although Billy is very good for preserving history as a writer. I'd be really curious what other SF 1-0's and 1-1's think of Billy. I have no idea. There's a current crowd of yahoos that lap up his books, just because they love that shit, but I think that's not a fair way to judge Billy. Need some people who were peers. But then again, maybe that doesn't matter. We never really know someone perfectly, and shit happens.

Here's the problem you (and everyone) has, 377. We go thru everything we know, and make judgments based on our collective experiences, and say "well, it would more likely be someone like this" etc. But say "someone like that doesn't exist, especially not in Vietnam." But then we go out and find someone that matches everything that people were looking for, including physical description, and we say "Nah, can't be him" I'm reminded of all the flak I got when I said I'd do the jump in shorts and sandals, and people were talking about experience, and being scared at the door etc. All of a sudden, I have this feeling that people want to say "Nah, had to be a whuffo". But then I ask mentally: "Why the sudden change?" I get the feeling "uhhh Cause we're afraid of guys like Billy because they're our heroes and they snap towels at us in the locker room and plus he's killed folks so doesn't that mean he's not Cooper?" How come people don't want to review the importance of November 1971 in Billy's career? And where was he in Nov. 1971? Was he in Texas yet? When did he travel to the Pentagon to try to get his orders changed? That May 1971 photo with Mrs. Alexander. Where was it? stateside? She worked in the Pentagon I think, dealing with the paperwork for SF..orders and such. She wouldn't have travelled to Vietnam? Why was Billy's LBJ photo on the wall behind them? Where was the pic taken? Did Billy go stateside much in 1971? Her name was Billy Alexander. I mean, he fits the psych profile Ckret presented, just in the military career instead of aviation career. He quit, and went to work for the Post Office. Basically people are backpedaling away from 12 months of discussion and saying "Nah". (edit) I think people are also wrestling with the realization of how small the world is. i.e. that anything is findable. (edit) caveat: anything significant, US related, with people living in the last 10 years.

"McCoy's crime was partially a result of mental trauma" Yeah, from the wife! remember I posted how the court case about the book, ended up with her admitting her involvement in the planning etc. But she was never charged with anything. She got off just as good as Cooper did! (although no payoff)

Brucie commenting about Carr/Comics "Or perhaps DBC had a connection to French Canada." Yeah, I laughed when even Jerry just recently said something like that. Jerry said he didn't think Cooper was military, but maybe he was Canadian military. Like everyone knows Canadians are stupid? I will confess that I thought "no" to military, because of behavior. But in reading about these SF guys, they were outliers to military. It's interesting to read the history of how SF was created and adapted and maintained. Their outsider status shaped the people a lot, I think. Especially when they mixed in a lot with non-US (Montagnards, RVN). Basically on their own a lot. Not really standard, in terms of military experience/ways it affects people.

Sometimes wishful thinking is a good thing. I was very low on RW skills in the 70s when I somehow got onto a big (15?) way jump at Elsinore jumping from their DC 3. I had never hoodked up with more than two other people before and it took thousands of feet and many tentative approaches. Well, I pulled it off thanks to a lot of help from others and got my SCR award. Was I qualified for the jump? NO WAY. It was strictly a "maybe he'll pull it off" situation and I got lucky. 377 You don't understand. You're viewing it from your perspective. If the other guys had a goal of really really needing to make the RW for some reason, you wouldn't have been allowed in on that jump. If there was a high chance others would die unless you were perfect, you wouldn't get in. In fact, if part of skydiving is just rolling the dice with unskilled folks and drinking beer when the dice roll your way, that's pretty funny! That jump didn't matter so much. That's why you got in. (edit) Or maybe there was no one else available that was a better choice. Different scenario. There was no goal for your jump, other than to have fun. The goal actually was probably improved by you being there, since if successful, it was a big thing for you. Skydiving is as much a social thing as anything else. The social thing is part of the goal.

Mentioning McCoy reminds me. Carr had held out McCoy as an example of how an "expert" would do it. Are we all in agreement now that McCoy was not a freefall expert, and only had a couple months freefall experience...i.e. that McCoy showed how a novice would do it? I'd like feedback. It's a good example of how broken the FBI thinking is, and how myths are still held as truth, even when obviously false. I posted the dates/months when McCoy started freefall (I think his friend provided some info about their club too? from the McCoy book).

No, you're getting too conspiratorial. Tom is just misrepresenting himself and allowed himself to get sucked in by Carr. Carr is using him. So it's a symbiotic relationship. Both think they're getting something from the other/using each other. But they're both just assholes. Or maybe they just like to bowl together? 377 just pm'ed me on this issue. I'll snip my replies to him here. If I'm wrong on anything I say below, I invite correction. His web site is http://www.tomkaye.com Some people are apparently impressed when they read it. I think that says more about the reader, than about investigating the Cooper case. ------------ Tom Kaye is a fake. He's not a scientist. He doesn't even have a college degree. He's a fake. He acts like a scientist, and let's/leads people to believe he's a scientist. He's not. ----------------- Larry Carr is unskilled for the job at hand. How did Larry Carr rationalize anything he did? I don't know. Tom Kaye is easier to figure out, once you realize he's fake. ------------------ I say Tom Kaye is useless because he is. He has produced nothing. Therefore useless. Everyone has the possiblity of being useful in the future. That doesn't mean anything. There's no reason to believe Tom Kaye will be more useful than a random person off the street. You've just got wishful thinking. Would you jump with Tom Kaye on a RT mission in Vietnam in 1971? No, because you know he's unskilled. You wouldn't say "maybe he'll pull it off".

Hey run with it Brucie. You're holding the fort down on conspiracy angles here. Me, I just think in terms of probabilities and profiles, which should be obvious. It's really interesting to muse, if over the years, when knowledge of Vietnam SF activities became more widely known to FBI, whether the investigation was given low priority because someone decided it was better not to know, or to reveal Vietnam data. '71 and the '72 withdrawal was a troubling political time. I think though, that lots of detailed info about Vietnam SF has only become available in say the last 10 years. The web has helped a lot, with firsthand reports and photos. Easy web posting for old guys from Vietnam, would have started circa '99 or so. So I think we are exchanging info that has only become public in the last 10 years or so. So lots to think on. (edit) I've not done a bibilography of when the "good books" on Vietnam SF were first published. But not everyone bought/read the books. I think also, there's this quaint notion the FBI holds on to, that they "know" Cooper was inexperienced. It's like a belief system. Like they want to believe the initial DZ was around SEA. Everyone has to believe in something, I guess. Anything's possible, though, I guess. Better to believe in "anything is possible", I think. (edit) Oh ps. Billy apparently broke his ankle many times on jumps. I doubt risk of another broken ankle would have bothered him. If he was here, we could ask him about some of his broken ankles!

the nylon could have fuzzed out in storage/thru handling also. All the evidence in the Cooper case was poorly handled. There might be pictures taken from when the reserve was recovered as evidence. That would be much better. But the FBI isn't really investigating anything, so they don't release info. Remember when the video showed that Tom Kaye got to see better FBI pictures of the initial money find and dig, that Larry Carr didn't provide to us? Larry Carr might be a nice guy to bowl with, but I still can't understand why Jerry Thomas, who apparently has met him, said he was a good agent. And I can't understand why Tom Kaye said there was an FBI investigation that was good, while providing no data to us that showed that. It's great how funny the whole thing is. I think the FBI likes to think that it's different than it was back then. I suspect not, though. How can you explain Larry Carr?

nothing interesting, but since we're talking about knives, I'll post the video snap I did that shows a closeup of the cut lines on the reserve.

We like radar. This is a shot of the Air Force guys running the show at Tan Son Nhut airport, which we've discussed before. They evidently tracked stuff on see thru plastic there (you can see the plastic has the map of Vietnam) Nice view of the radar scope in the room. "American Air Force specialists directing missions from command center using transparent maps and electronic surveillance & tracking equipment at Tan Son Nhut airport during the Vietnam War. (Saigon). Hey and it was a bitch getting everything set up again after 377's visit. Everything back in place now (2nd pic)

I just had a thought. Thru the years, there have been a lot of folks talking about the Cooper money bag attach, suggesting it was not around the waist but on the floor, attached to line, to his waist, like paratroopers do with heavy gear. (edit) I guess they drop the load below them, before landing, so the shock of landing with a heavy load, isn't on the jumper. We know that is apparently wrong. Cooper apparently did a waist attach of some kind. The mythbusting is around what the Vietnam jumpers did, though. I just realized, some of the stuff I posted, showed there were no loose dangling bags when they jumped (for the jumps discussed)...i.e. they did a tight attach of their rucksack below the chest reserve. Be interesting to discuss this more. I find it fascinating that previous discussion about possible dangling moneybag being used to imply SOG, would be just wrong..and that the Cooper attach was around the waist, and still is actually closer to the known Vietnam SF HALO jump gear setup. Of course the reserve issue is always there.

This is a good article for people interested in the story of the classic '60s era SOG/CISO Recon knife design (there were other knives, too, and a lot of replicas) Seems authoritative. I compressed it and split the pages, for easier download. Should still be readable. From the magazine "Fighting Knives" Fall 1991 Death by knife was not uncommon, apparently, in Vietnam. Although many other purposes (cutting wood, brush, whatever). So your knife (s) choice was probably important. Some had a redesigned bolo knife that was a shortened machete, apparently.

Sorry about the last post. took me a while to get it right. so started another. I've contrasted the CIDG (indigeneous) and the Tropical Rucksack. here's some more on the CIDG rucksack from http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=557 It was actually copied from a captured NVA rucksack. The guys said "why can't we have something like this?" Conrad 'Ben' Baker of the Counterinsurgency Support Office (CISO) designed the indigenous rucksack after being asked by Special Forces in Vietnam if something similar to the VC 'ditty bag' could be produced for CIDG troops. Approximately 350,000 rucksacks where procured by CISO at a cost of $2.80 each, as opposed to $14.90 for a U.S. issue Lightweight Rucksack. Made from water resistant rubberised cotton canvas, the CIDG pack had a thin waist strap and featured three outside front pockets in addition to the main storage compartment. It also boasted a rear pocket that was often used to carry a map, a machete or to hold foam padding. Though designed for indigenous personnel and their advisors, the rucksack was also popular with SOG and LRP teams. I've attached 2 pictures of a NVA/VC rucksack also Made from cotton canvas, this North Vietnamese rucksack boasts three outside front pockets in addition to the main pack. Each of the outside pockets have tie fasteners whilst the pack flap is secured by two buckled straps. The rucksack also features a rear map pocket and a thin wast strap. The CISO produced Indigenous Rucksack was based on a captured pack of this type. (edit) I guess some things aren't clear to all folks, so to be specific: The Vietnam HALO jumps, we have info that at least one rucksack was lost on a jump. It's interesting to understand what rucksacks they might have carried, how they attached them (apparently under the chest reserve), and how familar someone would be with the term "rucksack" or "knapsack" and dealing with soft bag attach on a jump. The preference for the soft (non-framed) CIDG rucksack is important, I think.

There's actually a lot to talk about, if we want to talk about knives. I found a good history from the mid-60's designer of the oft-talked about SOG/CISO Recon Knife. (Ben Baker) It actually was made in Japan. They talk about "sterile" which meant not traceable to any country of manufacture (think covert). The article is big, so I can't post (maybe I can compress) In any case, a more pertinent discussion would be around the MC-1 switchblade, which was standard issue to Vietnam parachutists (and actually still made) It was a switchblade, orange. Non-serrated blade. But it came with a hook knife for cutting chute lines. The RT teams typically carried folding knives, along with a big knive that was more weapon-sized. I suspect the folding knives varied a lot. I've also attached the instructions that came with the Tropical Rucksack and some more pics of it But the MC-1 is interesting to think about, since Cooper cut parachute lines. picture attached of vietnam era MC-1 Also just a curiosity, I repeated an apparently erroneous mention of uppers a long time back. I've attached the list of items inside a SOG survival kit from the era, along with a picture of a survival kit. Dextroamphetamine Sulfate was on the list. Funny. Maybe that's where someone got poetic license. (edit) detail history on the Tropical Rucksack here: http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=453 two pics attached from there.

It's interesting to muse if the overwhelming emphasis on statistics during the Vietnam War flew directly from McNamara. I guess so. It's interesting how some things don't change though. I thought this picture was interesting. Taken in Afghanistan, 2008. The two guys in green are wearing US shoulder patches. The other guys (who appear overweight to me) are wearing the new Afghan National Army shoulder patches. you can see the patch design here http://www.mod.gov.af/ Problem is, they're not Afghan! look to be US contractors to me. 2nd photo is cool. Pickup trucks with machine guns (technicals). Toyota? I wonder. (you can see the Afghan National Army little pennant if you look hard, flying on the truck) (edit) From a McNamara obit: "McNamara admitted in his book that the U.S. government had never answered key questions that drove its war policy, such as whether the fall of Vietnam would lead to a communist Southeast Asia and if such an occurrence would really have posed a grave threat to the West. "It seems beyond understanding, incredible, that we did not force ourselves to confront such issues head-on," he wrote. "

It is to be expected that many things seem unrelated. That's fine. I expect many readers would say "I don't see the relationship". Remember, many FBI agents have said the same thing about many things. The key to not being found, is having people not see relationships. So: that's a good thing. I'd like to hear more from people who think "no way". Explain why. A couple of other thoughts: FBI Special Agent Larry Carr created the lie of a citizens investigation group, and passed it on to the national media. A person named using the assumed name Tom Kaye helped promote that lie. For unknown reasons. If anyone wants to get worked up, get worked up about that.

Hi rdufokker. I guess I don't understand your point. You don't think Vietnam is related to Cooper? Or are you saying things that interest rdufokker are not Cooper related? Or ???

Soldier of Fortune magazine did an article on MACVSOG in 1981 it's available (scanned) here: http://www.macvsog.cc/sof_penetrates_secrecy_of_sog.htm#SOLDIER%20OF%20FORTUNE%20Penetrates%20Secrecy%20Surrounding%20Special%20Operations%20Group%20In%20S.E.%20Asia%20June%201981 I've attached a page that had a description of gear. There they say only the "indigeneous" (soft?) rucksack was used. URC-68 was mentioned for radio STABO rig with ordinary pistol belt. Must of been later than 1970 for this..??? Ah, here it mentions snap links attached for chopper lift out. STABO rig was made in Taiwan by CIA? Named for the two sergeants who designed it. The gear list aligns with what the post kind of said. (edit) D-rings mentioned here, in STABO description, 377 pictures at the link http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=661 developed May 1970? Developed at the MACV Recondo School in Vietnam, the STABO Harness was designed to enable the rapid extraction of reconnaissance personnel by helicopter. Named after its inventors, Maj. Robert L. Stevens, Cpt. John. D. H. Knabb and SFC. Clifford L. Roberts, the harness was made from type-13 nylon and formed an X across the back. In order to be extracted the soldier simply snapped the helicopter’s extraction line bridle to the two shoulder mounted D rings. This was a significant improvement on the McGuire Rig, which was essentially a 100-foot mountain rope anchored to the helicopter with a loop at the end for the individual to sit in. Unlike the STABO, riding the McGuire Rig required strength and agility and it was consequently of little use in extracting the wounded. Equipped with a standard pistol belt, the harness was also designed in part to replace the M1956 / M1967 Load Carrying Suspenders. The STABOs leg straps were folded up and secured by tape or rubber bands against the shoulder straps until needed. The first production STABO was supplied by the Counter Insurgency Support Office (CISO), which procured 500 harnesses (at a cost of $5 each) for Special Forces in March 1969. After completing safety tests and revising their cost estimates down from $100 to $14.50 per unit, Natick Labs was instructed in May 1970 to procure 1,370 harnesses for use by Army recon units in Vietnam. Both the CISO and Natick models were produced in small, medium and large sizes. However, the Natick STABO had several enhancements, including: padded shoulders, adjustable leg straps and a permanently sewn in pistol belt.

from http://www.macvsog.cc/payscale.htm#PAY%20SCALE this is a nice chart of basic pay scale for commissioned officers, warrant officers and enlisted, on July 1, 1968.

Thanks 1969912 about the biners. Since I mentioned Hickory. The NSA stuff might not be well known. NSA apparently had a Polaris II station at Hickory. NSA and SOG also operated a site in southern Laos, code-named Leghorn. I can't find much detail on the NSA gear. Site pics attached. Apparently they also relayed traffic. Leghorn was also known as Golf-5. "It was so high I could fire an M79 round at 45 deg. elevation and have time to take a drag or two off of a cigarette before I heard it explode" The story of when Hickory was overrun by NVA is gut-wrenching. Led to at least one POW. The Leghorn site is just jaw-dropping. Leghorn was held for five years. The last pic is an amazing close aerial shot of Leghorn. Located at YB 604-356 in southeastern Laos. The site was discovered by SOG Lieutenant George K. Sisler. What Sisler had found was a 1,000 meter peak with almost vertical sides, easy to defend. Sisler stated that the site could be used as a SOG radio relay site that would enable recon teams to maintain radio contact with their departing air support if an immediate extraction was needed. Sisler said "I am absolutely certain that I could stay on that rock indefinitely". Indeed, the SOG-NSA people managed to hold Leghorn for five years. SOG teams and NSA radio intercept people could monitor a tremendous amount of NVA radio traffic. From their perch on top of Leghorn they could hear NVA truck traffic moving down route 96, some six miles west of Leghorn and a major part of the Ho Chi Minh Trail network.

Here's a pic of a c-46 (unmarked) that was supposedly used to insert and resupply agent teams in North Vietnam. Open side door. 2nd pic is a heli insert into North Vietnam (1968) "STRATA (Short Term Roadwatch and Target Acquisition) team 93 over North Vietnam during a 1968 insertion " (edit) For 377: Nice pic of Radio Relay site Hickory. Some of the sites on top of these mountains/ridges/hills were just amazing.. great photo. (edit) Hickory was secret NSA radio monitoring post, using state-of-the-art automated equipment to intercept enemy radio traffic.

some more views of the rucksacks. (the stiff backs here make them look like the x-metal-framed Tropical Rucksack instead?? dunno) Last is jungle picture and a heli "hover hole" ..i.e. "clearing" gives insight into what a 'nam jumper might have to deal with. Mentions flare usage. (see the heli in the photo!) Note these guys weren't jumpers. He mentions a rappel insert. comments/pics by Elfstone at http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52378&page=8 photo 1 Last words for a departing team...very obviously from FOB-2 Kontum. Reenactors, take a look at the equipment the team is carrying; and that is for a 5 day mission! Pretty light by modern standards. Take a look at the weapons leaning against the Slick - AK's. Why? When did this start to happen? The guys aren't kitted up as NVA. So why go with the AK? photo 2 Departure of a team-- don't know from where.Obvioiusly same team as #1 above:....the PSP should be a clue for someone; Note the Ak's...This must be CCS Ban Me Thout; edit: again though I have to wonder about the mountains in the background...might be the launch site at Dak To for FOB-2 Kontum; I think it was a dirt strip until at least Sept 1968...if psp was added..photo would have been taken subsequently...late 1968 or 1969?: photo 3 Insert in Laos - hover hole: I have to wonder if that was my operation since it doesn't look like the Huey is landing..just hovering; ...small chance..but it is Summer 68 and it is FOB-2. Delaware went in on a brightlight in early August 1968 to rescue the remains of an RT left for 2 weeks without food because of weather. Their radio batteries had given out. As we passed over the ridges into Laos West of Ben Het, a pencil flare came up. it was the lost team, sitting starving on a high speed trail. Me, Jimmy and 4 yards rapelled into the jungle; the interpretor refused to go out of the chopper. Jimmy blew down some trees and we were all pulled out on strings 2 hours later.... (edit) Another photo of the young indig guys in RT Hawaii and B-52 bombing craters in the jungle

I don't remember the D ring reference? Most of my cut and paste was not from jumpers, so yeah it's likely talking about carabiner. There are lots of pics with the RT's having oval carabiners on both straps of their shoulder harnesses (rucksacks). Sometimes with a 2nd biner clipped into the first. I've only seen one or two where they taped (black electrical tape) the biners. I think only the jumpers might have done that, to keep the biners from flipping around during the jump? The tape would add no strength..Maybe it was to keep the gate closed? since they didn't seem to have locking carabiners. Although I would think that wouldn't work well. I think the tape was maybe just to keep them from flopping a lot. It may have been a personal thing on just the one or two pics I saw. There were lots of oval carabiners. The indigenous ('nards etc) seemed to have some too (they got their gear from US though) As a tip of the hat to Elfstone, that 1-1 for RT Delaware who posted the info I copied, here's a pic of him in Khowst, Afghanistan, 2008! Pretty funny. I wonder if someone put up the Air America sign as a joke or ?? He obviously took the picture because of the funny Vietnam connection. (He was in Herat, Afghanistan also in 2007, 2nd pic) Don't know his name, but maybe still a player in 2007. (he young in Vietnam) He said at that forum: Well ... I am getting on; but can still shoot; and make up for lack of speed with trickness and understanding. Here's pics from Khowst (2008), Herat (2007) and from Ban Don A-233 (1967) (pre-macvsog). We can still contribute (edit) Another good Montagnard photo from Elfstone (he's age 66 now). Some good looks at rucksacks and how light they travelled. Here is a photo of (lets give the proper name) macv-sog, op-35, CCC (FOB-2 Kontum), Hatchet force aka Hornet force men on a deuce and a half. I like the photo for the arms they show. Also, Montagnards could flat fill up a truck; jacknola once saw a whole platoon on a tank.

We mentioned Delta before, talking about radios, and how lots of people were doing different things, possibly unaware of jumps etc by others. The SF structure changed over the years and can be confusing. (like the CIA oversee at the start). Here's a good short summary from a 1-1 RT Delaware ... there seems to be some confusion on what was macv sog and its relationship to 5th SFG. Here are some comments on the different operations Special Forces was doing in SE Asia: 1. CIDG: Civilian Irregular Defense Group: Indig forces raised, trained and led by USSF 5th SFG in “A” camps up and down VN in all 4 corps areas, the bread and butter of 5th SFG. It started when the 1st and 7th began sending teams to Vietnam about 1961 under JFK (Laos was also being fought by Special Forces until 1962 cease fire); SF teams were under the ops command of CIA I believe. 5th SFG moved into Vietnam about 1964? and put the SVN flag on their black flash. 5th SFG originally had several Hqs but in early 1965 set up in Nha Trang; 1st SFG from Okinawa still had tdy teams in country. Major battles raged around these camps, Lang Vei, Kham Duc, Ashau, Dak To, Ben Het, Plei Me, Duk Lap, Loc Nien…etc. The CIDG were known as “strikers” and wore tiger stripes. There ultimately were some 55,000 under arms, mostly minorities, Montagnards, Nungs, Cambodians, ete., for a pittance, 5% of the cost it would take to field the equivilant American forces. They were supposed to fight the VC but ultimately after Tet especially, took on regular NVA. (Comment: this is what SF was originally conceived to do - train and lead guerilla forces behind lines or train and lead indig CG forces. They key element was, however, the ability to interact with locals and train those troops; Modern SF has forgotten this, especially in Iraq an Afghanistan where they conceive themselves as sort of glorified recon elements; they don't train local troops and as such the US Army has lost a precious resource): -- Here is a brief description of CIDG: -- Here is Steve Sherman’s site, which contains maps and locations of all camps and names of every SF’er who served in each; far and away the best site on who did what, when and where for what team: http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/WIP.htm 2. Mobile Strike Force aka Mike Force: Super CIDG under command of 5th SFG. These were strategic reaction strikers, the equivilant of rangers. There was a battalion at Nha Trang (B-55) and a company at each “C” team. They were stong fighters. Duc Lap is their crowning jewel of a battle, when they took on an NVA regular army division and whipped them. Nui Ba Dien mountain was another. They were airborne qualified...regular troops almost: --http://www.mikeforcehistory.org/timeline/default.asp?orderby=Date_Down&page=3&SearchFor=sf&SearchWhere=All Lewis Buruss wrote a book about Mike Force. Buddy of mine, roommate from Bad Tolz, Mike Dooley, a cartoonist was killed with them. Frankly, they were bad A** MF’ers. But they could also posture (I always hated that "I'm badder than you MF'er" crap-it happened too often and the Disher outer was usually full of crapola); http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1187739398&searchurl=ds%3D30%26isbn%3D9780595165247%26sortby%3D13 Also Review this thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125381 3. Project Delta (B-52): Original recon element in SVN under 5th SFG command, after CIA gave up ops command over SF in 1964. Long range recon originally going cross-border but after 1965 dedicated to in-country ops. They could draw on a variety of resources and I think came under opscom of various divisions (but always reporting to 5th SFG Hqs). Project Delta was the predecessor to MACV SOG; Note the LLDB patch on the gate; SVN elements were in the know about Delta; Macvsog was totally isolated from SVN command structure: -- http://macvsog.cc/special_projects.htm#SFD%20B-50%20Project%20Omega: -- http://www.projectdelta.net/delta_history.htm 4. Project Omega (B-50), (B-53), Project Sigma (B-56): Long range recon and special projects going across the border. They are linked to macv sog in some way, but how their command structure shook out is a mystery to me; Steve Sherman would know. Its was my impression that they were subordinate to 5th SFG C/O. B-53 might have been a "shadow B-team" to cover the assignment of SF personel to macv sog (I really don't know). Among other things, they had South Vietnamese troops (or Chu Hoi's, N.Vietnames defectors) dressed as North Vietnamese Army walking the trails in Laos and Cambodia: -- http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/B50.htm -- http://macvsog.cc/special_projects.htm#SFD%20B-50%20Project%20Omega: 5. Project Gamma (B-57): Special Forces special intelligence gathering outfit under 5th SFG. They dealt with the Montagnard Liberation movement FULRO. Maj Terry operated out of Ban Don A233 and used elephants to travel to the Cambodian border (I have pictures of that): See Steve Sherman’s site: http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/B-57.htm 6. OPS-35 aka Studies and Observation Group aka MACV SOG: CCN, CCC, CCS: Staffed mostly by 5th SFG troops but not under 5th ops command. Ops into Cambodia were code-named Danial Boone and later Salem House. Ops into Laos were code-named Shining Brass and later Prairie Fire. I've forgotten what ops into the North were called. -- For a summary, see Robert Noe’s site: http://macvsog.cc/sog,_an_overview.htm another poster commented: AFAIK OP-35 was "just" a part of MACVSOG. SOG was divided into 5 branches: OP-31 Maritime Studies Division, OP-32 Air Studies , OP-33 Psychological Studies , OP-34 Airborne Studies , OP-35 Ground Studies Group. Operations into North Vietnam where under the auspices of OP-34. They were responsible for training long-term agents and inserting them into NV and for the so-called STRATA (Short Term Roadwatch and Target Aquisition) teams. OP-31 ran some covert maritime ops against NV's coastline. also, another poster: Re: Project Omega (B-50) and Project Sigma (B-56) and their relationship to macv sog, here is a good explanation. They were 5th SFG controlled projects running into Cambodia from Ban Me Thout up until about late 1968. They were then folded into Macv-sog Op-35 and became CCS in Ban Me Thout. In early November 1968 FOB-2, formerly controlled by CCN in Da Nang, got its own command, CCC. I'll speculate the reorganization, including the integration of Omega and Sigma into macvsog, happened at the same time.