snowmman

(edit) Initial version of this post miscorrelated two missions, but my message is still the same. This account focuses on Billy Laney (KIA) and Charles Wilklow, and is good reading to see what these guys had to deal with. http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/l/l009.htm It ends with: "When Wilklow came to, he was looking into the face of SSG Roy Pace, a Black American, who had performed a one man bright light by rappelling in to rescue him. Wilklow was wearing a STABO rig and was extracted by string." My only point: I don't want georger to create the impression that I don't understand or respect heroism. I do. I may not be it, or know it firsthand, but I can see when others recognize it in their accounts.

georger, did you say something about scars? I didn't quite hear it. Maybe a little louder?

Georger, the problem with trying to pull rank, is that it's sad to watch if it's totally ineffective. I ignore you, and you ignore me. Remember?

After Billy the hero quit in disgust at something at the end of '71 (retirement early in '72), He went to work supposedly for the Post Office. Until 1977 when he went to work for Wilson and Libya shit. In his book, he likes to tout his photo taking of Carlos the Jackal. Whatever. Does anyone out there know more about this Post Office shit? Seems weird.

377 said "If he did do it undisguised, don't you think he would avoid photos subsequently?" Need clarification, 377. What photos are you talking about? most of the photos I posted are pre Nov 71. So those were done. The recent photos were 2004ish? or so? So I don't have any photos from '71 to '00, I don't think. If anyone has photos from '71 to '00 or so, post, (or ID photos as such from previous postings). It is fair to ask about Billy posting his own photos from pre-71. But then again, he's selling books now. I ordered a used copy of his book to read. They're pretty cheap online. Recycle! (edit) Georger: Yes we can all move along now. Nothing to see here.

You're right Jo. A lot of heroes I know, if they have a suspect on a hijacking, they report it to random people like Sluggo. Our hero forwarded the Dan Cooper comic book that was part of the FBI news release. So obviously he either looked on the web after Sluggo's email, or had looked before. In either case, if he had information and he was a hero etc, you would think (especially an old 80 year old guy) he would have emailed the local sheriff: FBI. but no, he emails Sluggo monster. Makes sense! (edit) Another interesting thing maybe Billy can espouse on. He called the "action" "slick". That implies to me he assumes Cooper succeeded. He didn't say Cooper was a dork, say. Why would he imply the action was "slick"..i.e. why did he admire it? You don't admire guys like Carr described..stupid dead guys.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953172,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925092,00.html It was not a successful kill. October 1980. FBI traced the gun. good detail here http://books.google.com/books?id=sT73Ju1Za5IC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=%22eugene+tafoya%22&source=bl&ots=XJQLIuLLYA&sig=QOXrDSB5fYkK0J1dnefe2L8_Ppk&hl=en&ei=jXtVSrW_C4yMsgOEiIX0AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7 names Faisal Zagallai: target, grad student, Colorado State University, Libyan. Eugene Tafoya: the ex-Green Beret Eugene was apparently convicted but got a small sentence. people can research more.

Of course you do. Ah, I can tell you're a jumper. Nice data free posts. Insult level, low.

"Carr is reading here" So friggin what? The only more useless person in the Cooper action, after Tom Kaye, is Larry Carr. The phrase we used to use: "waste of space". Alternate opinions can chime in and educate me. Provide data if available. (edit) I just bolded a claim of a Green Beret (edit) attack. 2 head shots, assassination attempt claimed, of a dissident in Colorado, USA, in a prior post of mine talking about Wilson, that apparently was from Wilson's group of ...ahem recruits? If anyone wants to research that and provide detail, that would be interesting. It's amazing to see a claim of a "war hero" doing a non-approved assassination. Is the claim correct? (edit) read some more. even after the trial, it's apparently still unclear.

"WE ARE DEALING WITH A LIVING PERSON HERE AND A WAR HERO ALSO." I'd be interested in a summary of the background behind his hero status. I know his bio, and the purple hearts, and I've read his SF mission reports. But I've read a lot of SF mission reports, so hero vs non-hero gets muddied. It was a big war. If you have more detail, post. I enjoy being more informed. I enjoy history. I was not of age for Vietnam. Telling me anything helps educate.

Ok, I'm doing a false-flag recruitment. I mentioned Wilson and Waugh in passing, but no one commented on it, so I'll pinpoint it here: This was a snip from a PM: I don't know if you're read enough about Wilson, and how he got convicted for selling plastic explosives to Libya. Note Wilson was fired by the CIA in 1971? http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/edwin.htm According to IRS data released in July 1983, Wilson made at least $21.8 million from servicing Libya alone..... [convicted in 1983]..He spent the next 20 years in prison. Then, on October 29, 2003, Judge Lynn N. Hughes of Federal District Court in Texas threw out the 1983 conviction after finding that prosecutors knowingly used false testimony to undermine his defense. Judge Hughes found that the crucial CIA claim that Wilson had not worked for the organization since his dismissal in 1971 had been undermined by a CIA memorandum. This finding left opened the question of whether Wilson was a rogue operator at the time of his nefarious activities. I've not read a lot, but supposedly Waugh was working for Wilson in Libya. Waugh wasn't convicted of anything though. The debate was really how much was Wilson working for CIA, and how much was he running deals for his own reasons on the side. Who knows what the truth is. Maybe Brucie needs to add a chapter for this? I've not really looked at this. Too complicated. News in 2003 about the conviction overturn after twenty years: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/29/1067233244563.html background on Wilson, mentioning the Libya thing, plus Waugh. Notice how they flew the explosives in oil drilling mud on a jet. Funny. Remember we were talking about tanks on jets before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_P._Wilson In the 1970s, Wilson became involved in dealings with Libya. Wilson claims that a high ranking CIA official Theodore "Blond Ghost" Shackley asked him to go to Libya to keep an eye on Carlos the Jackal, the infamous terrorist, who was living there.[1] At the time, a strict sanctions regime was in place against Libya and the country was willing to pay a great deal for weapons and material. Wilson began conducting elaborate dealings and guns and military uniforms were smuggled into the country. Wilson also recruited a group of retired Green Berets – decorated Vietnam veteran Billy Waugh among them[3] – to go to Libya and train its military and intelligence officers. The Libyans used Wilson's provisions to advance their interests around the world, including training terrorist cells to build explosive devices inside radios. One cell trained by Wilson's operatives was the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLF-GC) under the command of a former Syrian Army Officer, Ahmad Jibril.[citation needed] Jibril was suspected of being behind the bombing of Pan Am 103 in Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988.[citation needed] In 1979, a gun that Wilson had arranged to be delivered to the Libyan embassy in Bonn was used to assassinate a prominent dissident. The next year, one of the Green Berets [ed.] shot another dissident in Colorado. Wilson states that he regrets these incidents and had no prior knowledge of them. He states that he was still working for the CIA and his supplying of weapon to the Libyans was an attempt to get close to them and gain valuable intelligence. The most dramatic deal, and the one that brought Wilson to the attention from the U.S. government, was for some twenty tons of military grade C-4 plastic explosives.[4] This was a massive quantity that was equal to the entire US domestic stockpile.[1] Most of Wilson's connections were still under the impression that he was working for the CIA and a wide network in the United States supported his actions. The explosives were assembled by a California company and hidden in barrels of oil drilling mud. They were flown to Libya aboard a chartered jet.

funny. Yeah, billy has posted on the web where he lives, so that's not really saying anything new. Although I've said I like Jo before, I actually can't picture a worse hell to inflict on anyone, then to be even remotely mentioned to Cooper, and living near Jo. All I can say: not my fault.

Yup and Carr could tell us to fuck off, and the 305 prints and dna we know are probably bullshit anyhow, so it's a waste. It's insane, but Billy is insane, and maybe an old guy would like to pull a little SF joke on a whuffo so he can tell the story at the reunion jumps. i.e. whuffos are just as stupid as everyone always said! Hell! he could put it in his next book! Also, this is why you need guys like Sluggo on the team. Billy would tell me to go fuck myself, but maybe someone else can work some magic. (edit) Here's what's really funny. georger with his little magnifying glass, is going to think he can match wits with a professional who's trained in deception and E&E, and that georger is going to post something that's going to convince me to bet on georger catching something waugh didn't think about. Funny!

I had this thought. I'll pay for a private lab/whatever to visit Billy at home to take DNA and fingerprints. I'll give the money to 377 upfront so I can't weasel out. I would think Billy's fingerprints and DNA might be available already. And we know that the value of any FBI prints or DNA might be zero. But it's a question. And the question of private DNA work came up with other suspects. I figure it can't be boatloads of money. So, sure, I'm willing to spend the money since I'm jawing. It's fair. Worst case: I'm wrong and out some bucks. (edit) Carr has said before that he would take DNA/prints submitted this way. If Carr won't take anything, no matter what, then I won't money up, because it's pointless. So it's fair to ask 377 to get a committment from Carr before I fork over.

Snow, I want to point out, Cooper had no scars, tatoos, or facial/hand blemishes of note reported. BW does and would have been noticed, as per the below and other actions BW saw by 1971. You can see several prominent features in the photos you posted . . . reference: " In 1965, while participating in a commando raid with his CIDG unit on a North Vietnamese Army encampment near Bong Son, Binh Dinh province, Waugh's unit found itself engaged with much larger enemy force then anticipated. Expecting only a few hundred NVA, it was discovered that a force of Chinese regulars had joined the NVA Elite; combining for almost 4,000 soldiers. While he and his men attempted to retreat from the battle, Waugh received numerous severe wounds to his head and legs. Unconscious, he was taken for dead by NVA soldiers and left alone. Despite his injuries, and with the assistance of his teammates, Waugh was safely evacuated from the combat zone. He spent much of 1965 and 1966 recuperating at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, D.C., eventually returning to duty with 5th SFG in 1966. He received a Silver Star and a Purple Heart (His 6th) for the battle of Bong Son." (wiki) I provided pictures from say May 1971. You're saying you can see scars in that picture from May 1971? If so, circle and post. The only other Cooper visible anatomy would be hands. I forget if hands were visible in any pictures. If pictures are available to confirm scars, why are you relying on text? Obviously he healed enough from his wounds (including multiple broken ankles from jumps) to do the Vietnam halo jump in 1971. I guess I don't see your point at all.

And even that is extremely tenuous. I have attached a 'mug-shot' of a serial killer, and an identikit image of the suspect. The killer was shot very recently in South Carolina. There is virtually no resemblance between the two. disagree. The serial killer sketch is a good match.

But how long have you been at this? Certainly you should have run across Fort Bragg, NC a couple of times by now. Pretty much every US military jumper from any service branch has gone through Fort Bragg and I do mean pretty much ALL of them since the very beginning of parachute operations. If you guys are looking at mil spec jumpers, that place is going to come up over and over again. Well now you got me wondering about you, Quade. Why are you interrogating me on this detail? There is no "you guys". If you're talking about me. I answered your question. I have no idea about anyone else here. You might ask everyone about Fort Bragg then. Are you saying I've been looking at military jumpers for a while? No. We discussed it generally. I looked into it in detail when Orange1 brought it up again just recently. What does that seem complicated or not make sense? I have not looked at Fort Bragg before. I have not looked at it now, other than how it likely explains when Waugh may have started thinking about a hijack because of his situation. I have noted I don't have good detail on the critical Nov-Dec, 1971 timeframe. I've been very clear, and you think the most important thing is to decide my lack of knowledge about Fort Bragg is important to point out. And I was the one to highlight my error, to avoid sending anyone down the wrong path. Great. I know nothing about Fort Bragg. Never have. Never will. Don't care about skydivers, especially after 377 convinced me that even with a D license and some wingsuit jumps, Orange1 would still be untouchable, and to just forget about it. Larry Carr steered everyone away from just about any possible suspect except a dead ADD engineer early on. Then he got excited about loadmasters. And now you're wondering why no one looked at military jumpers? Okay let's start pointing fingers. That's what the forum does best. Chew on each other. Begin. If you have any other bullshit points to make, or questions about me, Quade, fire away, I'll answer them. Do I know more about skydiving history then your average dumbass jumper? I don't know. Possibly. That would be funny. (edit) When Orange1 and I had long discussions about Vietnam before, I was looking at US civilian jumpers in Vietnam during the period. Maybe that's why you're confused. Maybe you didn't even know there were any?

Be that as it may, upon hearing the words "Fort Bragg," if a person has any sense whatsoever of skydiving history or military parachute operations, really . . . there's only one place that should immediately come to mind. Quade: I thought that my history was clear. I have no sense of skydiving history or military parachute operations. Thanks for confirming.

Only if the only thing a person has ever been exposed to in their entire life are movies about the old west (or possibly if they'd like to make a connection where one can't be logically drawn). Otherwise, it's pretty universal. I hate creating errors, since the Cooper case is rife with them. When I copied "Fort Bragg", and posted "Texas".. I assumed Fort Bragg, Texas. But now I see it was Fort Bragg, NC. I'm not going to research though. I didn't realize there were two. Fort Bragg, NC is interesting for its own reasons (read up on it. don't know about 1971). Billy was born in Bastrop, TX, 26 mi S of Austin. You can read his bio here http://billywaugh.net/bio.htm I don't know why georger is talking about dishonorable discharges. See it's pointless. Sometimes it feels like you guys don't read half the stuff I post, or maybe you just don't understand it. Sure I'm stupid, But at least I read and can digest and edit information. It doesn't really matter though. The forum has no assets. Don't need to be talking, need to be doing. Need firepower.

I'll admit it. I'm weak. One parting thought. Obviously the whole FBI thing is bullshit. If there was a real investigation, we'd only need to ask one question. When was Billy Waugh investigated? And why was he ruled out? Billy can answer. Or FBI. If he was investigated and ruled out, we could review whether that was done correctly or based on faulty information. Anyone with half a brain realizes that he's a credible suspect. The 1400 suspect list is total bullshit. That should be evident to everyone also. Okay, I'm really gone now. (edit) Can make bets on whether he was investigated. I don't know. I guess I'll place my bet on "he wasn't"..or passed over without real investigation because Himmelsbach is an asshole.

I only posted again because 377 is a nice guy. With the return of georger and skyjack71, I have to get out again. (preserve my limited sanity). Thanks guys

I'm misunderstanding something that Billy said in his email to Sluggo. On page 89 of his book, "Hunting the Jackal" Billy says he was at Fort Bragg (in Texas) in December of 1971. see here http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA89 This was because, on page 88, he said his orders were up in Vietnam, in November 1971, and he had a conversation with the Op 35 commander (Colonel Roger Pezzelle) about whether to extend his tour. He evidently returned to Fort Bragg. http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA88 So Billy was not involved with CCN, SOG Operations in November 1971. Could he provide more detail? I'm also curious about how Billy was concerned about being an "armchair" sergeant major while at Fort Bragg. (from the book, page 89) Thanks. It'd be great to flesh this out.

http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/MACVSOG.htm Who's Who from MACV-SOG $75.00 " A listing of 6,700 personnel assigned to MACV-SOG and the Special Forces Command & Control Detachments. The list not only includes about 4,000 Special Forces personnel, but also civilians and other Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps personnel. Also included are First Flight Detachment personnel, TDY Snakebite, MI, Marine Force recon and SSG/SSA personnel. Other SOG aviation assets (attached to OP-75) and Navy Seals TAD to (OP-37) are briefly covered. No indigenous personnel are listed. Where known, specific duty assignments are given, down to recon team level. An alphabetical listing shows unit assignment, SFA/SOA member number (if applicable), Chapter (if known), status (if known) and a cross reference to other Who's Who monographs.There is a chart showing inter-relationships of SOG elements, an alphabetical listing of awards, a chronological listing of losses and a listing of known recon and hatchet force operations and the participants. 580 pages. ISBN: 0-9624009-8-X."

Thanks Sluggo. I figure if someone does something, like Waugh replying or you forwarding, that it deserves work in return. So I'll start digging. If Billy Waugh is reading this, thank you sir. I know it might be unsettling (read: piss you off) to see us throwing darts in the dark. But that's all we've got, and from reading your background, I'm sure you can appreciate the thinking that just because something seems odd, weird or hard, is not sufficient reason to back away from it. I'll go sniff around for this new name. If Billy came on this site, I'd be willing to abide by some ground rules. I think first if he just came on and introduced himself to the jumpers, and gave a short history lesson with them, that they could learn from..it would be pretty cool! I wouldn't want to stand in the way of that, so I'd just shut up if that was desired. (edit) at first thought, my guess is Ted Bradon isn't going to come close to the age requirement, just based on statistics in SF. But I'm looking. (edit) I'm really confused by the lead. Ted was AWOL in Vietnam? Or AWOL on a stateside leave or assignment? I'm not understanding what makes Ted jump out as a suspect. Was he the only SF that was AWOL in 1971? That would be interesting if true. (edit) I smiled when I read Billy referring to the hijack as "time of the action". I want to use that phrase. We've been saying Cooper incident. But "the Cooper action" is better!

that makes sense. I think he didn't surface till like 2004 though when he published his first book (he has another one in the works, and I think he said he has fiction in the works) His name showed up in some other books before that. Not sure about pictures. He's 80 years old. So life expectancy not too much longer, really. (fact of life). Why would he hunker down at 75? You stop caring. I did try to see if he was married or had kids. That could be a reason to lay low, if that was the case...i.e. thinking about family. I'm talking generally about possible Cooper suspect behaviors, if alive. (edit) Here's a book by John L. Plaster called SOG from 1997. http://books.google.com/books?id=1UZuAAAAMAAJ&q="billy+waugh"&dq="billy+waugh" Two references to Billy with people commenting on him Page 283 "But then a second all-volunteer team arrived at Nakhon Phanom, this one led by Sergeant Major Billy Waugh, "A real tiger, a gunslinger from the word 'go,'" Colonel Pinkerton said. Waugh warned his men, five Americans and six Yards, they would..." Page 303 "Another HALO team was in training, this one led by that SOG old hand who'd been everywhere and done everything except a HALO jump, Sergeant Major Billy Waugh. "He was hard to keep down," Major ....said