snowmman

No. Definitely not. The age was all wrong. And Jaco didn't have HALO experience. (edit) Don't know if he had any jump experience. I did read where two SF guys had "competitive" skydiving experience pre-Nam. So maybe a bunch of them were jumpers...military or civilian ..don't know. I suspect they talked to people showing the sketch and ignored age issues. Someone mentioned Jaco as a possible, and that was the extent of the FBI's investigation of SOG. The FBI doesn't appear to have done any investigation. They followed tips, and very shallow interviews. That's my suspicion. I have no data. But that's to be expected because of the FBI coverup. Carr says they changed gears in the investigation for good reason. His good reasons are bullshit. So why did they change gears? Carr is stuck defending the switch, without presenting any good information. He's also stuck not presenting who they investigated before the switch. Carr is stuck defending someone else's point of view. Carr doesn't have a brain of his own. If he does, it's surprisingly just the same as the FBI investigation has been for the last N years. Or I am missing something? What is different about anything Carr has said, compared to what the FBI investigation focused on in the last N years?

Rex Jaco is still alive. 74 years old, in Lawrenceburg, TN Phone number available via Google. Be interesting to call him and find out what the FBI asked during his interview, and when it happened, and what he told the FBI.....Obviously he's not interesting (the age is all wrong, since he was 36 or so in 1971). But we can investigate the FBI thru Jaco. From his photo, I suspect people thought of him based on the early sketches of Cooper. (Why the f* did they ignore the age issue though?) What year was he interviewed? Brucie: you can read about Rex online. For instance, with Plaster, when they captured that prisoner off the truck. http://www.ultimatesniper.com/Docs/26.PDF That's where I got his photo from. Jaco also here: http://books.google.com/books?id=JYT5UO_VHHcC&pg=PA232&dq=%22Rex+Jaco%22

yeah, we know because wrong age in 1971. Do you have any of the right height and age from 1971 and similar backgrounds, with some kind of motivation to do the hijack? If so, sure, they would be good suspects. Bring 'em on!

This is important, and surprising. I was thumbing thru the second Plaster book I have: "Secret Commandos". On page 346, when Plaster is talking about what happened to everyone post war (He mentions how all the SOG files were burned, it took days). Rex Jaco, my RT California One-One, was interviewed by the FBI in the 1971 hijacking of a Northwest Airlines plane. Rex was not the notorious "D.B. Cooper," who parachuted with a $200,000 ransom and has never been found. Today he serves on the board for the David Crockett VFW Post in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee." Now, why would they have interviewed Rex? I suspect he's too young. Don't have a photo yet. Photo below. (edit) Rex's approx age in 1971: 36 But if they interviewed Rex, why not Waugh? This also confirms that Carr is full of shit and doesn't tell us the full truth about stuff. Like where the FBI looked and where they didn't. Maybe Carr just doesn't know. Comments? I have to go back thru everything, but my first impression is that Rex Jaco didn't participate in the HALO jumps. Maybe the HALO stuff was still classified and no one talked or knew about it when the FBI interviewed???? (edit) Poor pic of Rex Jaco attached

I thumbed forward to Plaster's "SOG" Chapter 16, "Fighting Soldiers From the Sky" pp 303-326 It has more detail about the HALO jumps then previously posted. You get a better sense of the surreal reality of it, I think. There's no way I can summarize it. I think any jumper reading it would be frightened just by the thought of what they were doing. I think maybe the inserts/recons by heli over time, facing so much death, created a level of fearlessness, or "get the job done" that's hard to grapple with. An incremental training-over-time effect, that created a level of behavior/risk taking that only would make sense in a shooting war. They quickly realized that all the Fort Bragg HALO simulations, were just too canned, and a nowhere-near-close approximation of the real in-combat reality. There's an interesting description of how the first guy conned his friend into volunteering for the first HALO combat jump with him. It involved scotch and root beer (lots) and chinese checkers. I dunno, maybe I might scan it and OCR it. But it really helps to read the beginning of the book too, to set a context for the HALO jumps. There's a surreal feeling reading the book. Everything is described like this led to that which led to that which led to that...a perfectly logical sounding series of events and behaviors. But when you step back and think about it, it's all insane. I dunno. There's no good way to digest it. It was a separate reality. I can read till the cows come home, but I won't be able to know. Oh, for 377, a story of a homing device (cigarette pack sized) and detection by regular Sony transistor radios, is described, to help team members find each other on the ground. Sort of like we read from the Project Delta team member. The device had also been used by agent teams in North Vietnam to find dropped-by-parachute supplies, so I guess it was CIA provided, most likely (like the other account said).

Sir, I demand proof... Show me (us) your evidence. Sluggo Marrinelli Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap You have to be able to sit in a bar, late at night, dimly lit, with 5 other guys, half drunk and say "I shot a man in Reno Just to watch him die" and have everyone go quiet. That's the test. If you can pass it, put the video up on youtube.

I mentioned a page I landed on that had some of the '60s era military HALO training in the US. Great b/w pictures. This article is from the Parachutist Magazine, Feb. 1964 Cool how the military guy was basically trying to pass knowledge in this article? I guess it was all pretty experimental then: http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/tropo.html Good '60s photos here. Some pics from Parachutist 2/63 http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/photo.html First one on this page is "First US HALO Class Ft. Bragg N.C. 1962" http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/photo2.html

Georger, In the current vernacular: The FBI got pwned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp0LNoIgt5c Boom! Headshot!

uh, I think Roger was a little more than just a DZO, right? Cool the C-130 came from South Africa. How come everything is always related to South Africa? (and the families turn out to be devout Christians?) background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nelson_(skydiver) Supposedly he tried to weasel out of it saying he was providing tips to the DEA He even said he was working undercover for DEA...listen to this dumb-ass lie at his trial: (they closed the trial because they were worried about threats to witnesses). He even said the DEA provided him with gear. http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&p_theme=cstb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB36D5010F67730&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM "Champion skydiver and accused drug smuggler Roger Nelson maintained yesterday that a moral aversion to communism played a role in his decision to become a federal Drug Enforcement Administration informant. Nelson, 31, who runs a skydiving school in Sandwich, Ill., insisted that concern over impending criminal charges was secondary to his worry that "communists and idealists were getting into the drug trade." His explanation came during a hearing before U.S...." http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/24870047.html?dids=24870047:24870047&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Feb+07%2C+1987&author=Roxanne+Brown&pub=Chicago+Tribune+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=INFORMANT+SAYS+DEA+DIDN%27T+ACT+IN+DRUG+TIPS&pqatl=google Roger Nelson, an alleged drug smuggler-turned government informant, testified Friday that he and a group of other Bahamas-based pilots provided information to federal agents to make seizures of "over 4,000 pounds of cocaine in four days, and they missed them all." Testifying during a hearing on a motion to dismiss Chicago drug charges against him, Nelson said that Miami-based federal agents for the Drug Enforcement Administration failed to act on several tips that would have netted them several drug-smuggling suspects and the 4,000 pounds of cocaine. Nelson said one of those tips, in September, 1985, involved an alleged planned delivery of cocaine by Carlos Lehder Rivas, a narcotics underworld kingpin who was seized in Colombia and arraigned Thursday in Florida on drug charges. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/24613223.html?dids=24613223:24613223&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=May+16%2C+1987&author=William+B+Crawford+Jr&pub=Chicago+Tribune+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Skydiver+gets+10+years+in+drug+smuggling&pqatl=google A onetime world-champion skydiver who pleaded guilty to leading a huge drug-smuggling ring that brought millions of dollars worth of cocaine and heroin into the Chicago area was sentenced to 10 years in prison Friday. U.S. District Judge Paul Plunkett imposed the sentence on Roger Nelson, 31, former operator of a skyjumping school at Sandwich, after a long hearing in which Plunkett said he was puzzled by Nelson and his drug-dealing. Assistant U.S. Atty. Scott Mendeloff had asked for a 15-year prison sentence. Mendeloff charged that despite promises to do so, Nelson had not cooperated fully with federal drug enforcement agents to help expose other drug rings of which he had knowledge. from elsewhere: In May of 1986 Nelson and several others were indicted on drug smuggling charges. He pleaded guilty on March 4, 1987 after plea bargaining. Nelson claimed his involvement was part of an agreement with DEA. Many jumpers and drop zone operators criticized Nelson for his illegal activities as it cast a bad image for skydiving to the general public. Much of the drug money was supposedly used to purchase state of the art student equipment and fund the C-130 at the 1986 convention. The C-130 cost $120,000 in ferry fees from South Africa, $3,000 per day plus fuel and $11,000 motel fee for the crew. The 120-way built on the 11th try from 18,000 ft on Aug. 11th. The C-130 was used as the aircraft. The formation was held for 3.01 seconds and then part of it funneled.

skyjack71 "These guys taking shower with their clothes on" how else do you wash your clothes? Makes sense to me. (edit) Jo said: "Those guys would have required a "cover-up" more so than an ex-con and small time thief like Weber." I don't follow that at all. If you're saying there was no reason to cover up Weber, because Weber was nobody. Yes. Same with Sheridan. He was nobody. The only guy where there might be motive to look the other way, because exposing was worse than not exposing: Waugh. I don't know about Gossett. Maybe he was going to jump with the nuke from Sluggo between his legs? So maybe coverup possibility for Gossett too. Barb Dayton: Yes, Coverup. Himmelsbach wouldn't want to admit a girly man hijacked 305.

funny, 377. If I was head of the FBI, I'd order signs for all the local offices: "Business is great, except for those damn citizens" I know it would help business to be twice as great!

mod +20 funniest :) Georger has embraced wit!

skyjack71 consoled: "The only problem with what we are doing is the government will not recognize the extensive searching and interviews.." whew! actually that's great. Means the sex and drugs and payoffs won't be disclosed either. And those unauthorized computer accesses...those weren't probes, they were cosmic ray events. All easily explained away. (edit) oh wait a sec, maybe it was just 377 that was authorized for the brothel insertion.

If Carr thought Cooper had no skills, why did Carr think there was any value in posting at a skydiving site? I don't follow that at all. Seems half-assed. Why would a trained FBI agent do something so half-assed?

Sluggo said Carr said "He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy." This idea drives me insane, as I've said many times. Carr wants us to think there's some common interpretation of McCoy. Okay Mr. Carr. Let's compare Cooper to McCoy. What's the comparison? I've stated what I thought the comparison is. What does Carr think the comparison is? Oh I forgot. Carr is jerking off at his desk talking smack.

Sluggo would fail if he tried anything evil. So Sluggo is a bad example. Sure he has knowledge. But something like a hijack isn't just about knowledge. Motivation is primary. Sluggo doesn't have the evil gene.

In reading about these other SF guys, and comparing to Waugh, Waugh might have been a bit halfass. A lot of his "status" I think is based on him talking himself up, and guys just liking him in general...him being the old guy. People respect someone who appears to have survived in high risk situations. The assumption is that it means the guy is "good". He ran Covey or FAC a lot, and did a lot of bright light recovery. If you're the guy on the ground, I think you would have a lot of respect for the guys who you felt watched out for you, saved your ass. In terms of missions, I really need more information, but I'm wondering if, compared to all the 1-0's, Waugh was downscale..a little halfass. Don Valentine said Waugh was stupid. Didn't anyone read Don Valentine's account of training with Waugh? I don't know where all you guys, especially georger, get your opinions of SF guys and operations. Me, I read a lot. I don't know if you guys read anything or have first hand knowledge, or read comic books, or are just full of shit?

Sluggo said of Carr "He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass," I think we all suffer from unshared perspectives, based on differing life experiences. Once you've seen people succeed, given some arbitrary goal, using methods that are "obviously" half-assed, while people following the "everyone knows is right" method fail, then it's easy to accept that a perception of method being "half-assed" doesn't mean squat, in terms of predicting goal success or failure. Right? Or maybe everyone's experience is that people using half-assed methods fail, and people using "the right way" succeed? Maybe a pole vaulter would think that way, since that's a process honed over many generations, each building on the previous, creating a "right way"...in pole vaulting, I suspect you don't see many "half-assed" methods succeed, because it's so refined, and a relatively simple controlled event. When you have complex events/goals, there are no guaranteed methods (witness McCoy's failure) and so "half-assed" assessments of method are worthless. The real question: Does other data suggest Cooper may have succeeded? If so, then it's possible Cooper was "half-assed" but still succeeded. (Because we're not talking about pole-vaulting). Summary: You cannot apply a label of "half-assed" until you have many iterations of the experiment, with reliable fail/succeed data. There aren't enough iterations of the Cooper experiment, to understand what "half-assed" or not, would mean.

georger, you're so funny. you say "well Waugh is 377 and your arguement. You guys defend it?" to some degree, you have Carr disease, i.e. you focus on personalities. Do you really have a shrink background? If so, it feels like you suffer from academia, or too-restricted field experience. ??? The Waugh issue exists independent of me. I don't have to do anything! And it still exists!

I posted many images. My personal rule is don't do free work for anyone unless there's a good chance of return. You'll have to crawl thru the post history yourself. sorry.

Illustrate. Which drawing? Proof. georger, you were the guy with the contact that had the fancy computer comparison machine. we could just gather up the images, and send them to your guy, and he'll give us back a number. Don't need 377's interpretation. Why would you rely on 377's interpretation if you're looking for "data"....the data is the images. You have them. Process them any way you like. 377 already has (his eyes and mind). You disagree. So find another process.

Oh my... it's been staring us right in the face all this time! Hoover knew who Cooper was! He died only 6 months after the hijacking. The timing makes it obvious. He found out and was eliminated. The Conspiracy exists. (Orange1 exits stage left, peering nervously over her shoulder.) Plaster touches on how the Kennedy assassination screwed with things in flight for the military in Vietnam. If you want to extend the conspiracy, also include the 1963 murder followed by coup, of President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam. Here's a foia cia doc reporting that event "The Coup in South Vietnam" http://www.foia.cia.gov/browse_docs.asp?doc_no=0000287564 This material contains information affecting the national defense of the United States within the meaning of the Espionage Laws, Title 18, USC, Sections 793 and 794. The transmission or revelation of which in any manner to an unauthorized person is prohibited by law.

georger said: "The issue with Vietnam was Cooper's projected age. Ckret was relying heavily on witness physical descriptions of Cooper. He said those descriptions were in tight agreement. " I recently went thru my PMs. My very first PM was from Jo, imploring me to stop haranguing Larry about the age thing. If you remember, I probed on "why" they thought Cooper was a certain age. The net result of the "discussion" (actually lack of discussion :) was Carr having a little humph-fit, and me deciding the data wasn't there to support a tight range on age, but that 40-50 was reasonable.

Okay here's the proposed exchange. Waugh, get on this thread/forum, and I'll help you find Osama Bin Laden. I'm learning to read Arabic right now. We'll get Quade to get DZ.com to support an Arabic character set. It'll be fun! The money is there. Like Tom reported yesterday: http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090723/BUSINESS/707239891/1005

since you're gathering phrases, here's one I like that fits right now "Don't leave wind, to find wind"