snowmman

I was thinking about Braden. Imagine that after he deserted, in the back of his mind he might have thought they wouldn't go after him, because of the secret nature of stuff he knew about Vietnam. How they were going where they weren't supposed to be going, and doing stuff they weren't supposed to be doing. But then he gets caught, and he finds out he really does have a Get Out Of Jail Free pass...I mean he's travelling with a false passport, and nothing happens. I wonder what goes thru his mind for the next 10 years. Does he realize he has a Pass for the next 10 years??? What a weird situation to put someone in.

On the other hand, if Braden is Cooper (which he can't be, because of the money find. It was deposited by propeller. I saw the numbers on National Geographic).... But if he is, we could just give him a free pass. We could send him a card though, that entitles him to free beer for life at any DZ. ? My thinking is, we want to avoid the embarrassment of Braden pulling out a twenty to buy, and the whole bar going silent as we all stare at serial number K32190065A series 63A.

I just solved the Carr issue. I invited Squeaky Fromme to join us on the forum. The Citizen Scientists are all about experiential knowledge! We just got stronger! http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/05/squeaky.fromme.release/index.html

For you Snow? NADA. As tough as it might be for you personally, you'll have to beg Chief NORJACK Scientist Tom K to make your request. Tom has a hall pass. 377 Hmm. You're saying Carr is an "Untouchable". How can Carr be gotten to...hmm. It comes down to "What does Carr need?" Everyone needs something. We figure out what Carr needs. Then we get that thing. Then Carr comes to us and begs! We get Orange1 stiletto heels to grind into his hands at that point. (just thinking about movie scenes)

That is just so frigging wild. Let's start writing the screenplay now. The Cooper movie just got a lot more interesting. 377 Well, I think many movies have already been done... Check this site out for pics of "Mad Mike Hoare" http://www.geocities.com/madmikehoare/ The movie "The Wild Geese" was indirectly related to Hoare. Mike Hoare is credited as a "military and technical adviser" for the motion picture "The Wild Geese", adapted from a fictional account of Hoare's career. (1978) (Link to Internet Movie Database) http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0078492/combined "A British multinational seeks to overthrow a vicious dictator in central Africa. It hires a band of (largely aged) mercenaries in London and sends them in to save the virtuous but imprisoned opposition leader who is also critically ill and due for execution. Just when the team has performed a perfect rescue, the multinational does a deal with the vicious dictator leaving the mercenary band to escape under their own steam and exact revenge. " (edit) Hmm...maybe just need to rework that paragraph to say "An internet forum seeks to overthrow a vicious FBI agent in Seattle, Washington. They form a band of (largely aged) posters to ridicule the virtuous but critically ill Skyjack71, and others. Just when the team has identified Cooper, the target does a deal with the FBI agent leaving the mentally unbalanced, hateful band to exact revenge."

Another way to put it. "Can you envision a vet coming up with a crazy plan to get to Africa on his own, after deserting, and becoming a mercenary, and not getting killed within a couple weeks?" and...that it would end with him getting caught, but just released by the Army and told to just be good in the future (and keep your mouth shut) Hmm. I wonder why he didn't turn around and try to get hired in Africa again. Did the US Army tell the hiring folks down there Braden was off-limits? I wonder what files Ckret can get for us on Braden. I think they're next to the propeller files, in the stack of sliding bookshelves that was on tv. Below the domestic SR-71 flyovers file.

The nice thing about seeing more photos and bios, beside Duane, Gosset, Christiansen, is that is makes it more obvious (to me) how specious some of the claims of these other suspects are. The other suspects like to imply some uniqueness, but they don't show them in context. So 38 years later, it's easy for totally bogus "suspects" to appear to be worth some discussion. It also focuses us on how much we don't know about the era, and how much we rely on stereotypes, rather than saying "we don't know" and getting data. at least, I'm talking about myself and my thinking, I guess.

Good job Sluggo. Thanks. Three questions 1) Anything on what he liked to drink? Bourbon? 2) Where was he born? 3) How should I interpret Orange1's brag about her relative youth?

I talked the guy down from $49.99 to $39.99 Last time I wanted something (a NWA flight schedule closer to 11/71 than the one I currently have), I lost it by bidding low. I kicked myself with preannouncing, but no one here seemed to go up against me on this one. I think I saw someone else on the web with it for sale at $49.99 also. I'll see if there's anything about Braden's age when I get it. I did enough double checking that it should be the right issue..hopefully.

377 said "Viet Nam Veterans Against the War made all sorts of claims about atrocities and illegalities in SE Asia US military ops, but the military simply ignored/denied the charges and nothing came of it. " Well, there's no two ways to say it, but according to the supposed laws in place (which are unfair, since we tell soldiers to both follow the laws, and not follow the laws)...it's clear there were war crimes by the US in Vietnam. I'm thinking of a statement by Plaster..almost a throwaway sentence..about shooting an attempted NVA prisoner snatch after a tranq dart attempt that failed..."to put him out of his misery"... It's a little bit sad reading Plaster's book. There's SOG activity, that sitting in an armchair, you can say is clearly warcrime..i.e. shooting incapacitated prisoners, for convenience. The situation was all fucked up basically. I've read alot of words spent trying to rationalize the MACVSOG experience. A lot of killing happened. I think the reality is the whole plan, using indigeneous, derived from one of the top guys experience in WWII, was kind of a way to get lots of Yards killed. And US soldiers too. Sure the guys did superhuman efforts. It's mindboggling reading the stories. But I'm just as touched reading about the heli pilots, constantly shot down, killed, during rescue attempts after some of the inserts went bad. (edit) Or superheroic rescue attempts, under heavy fire, to extract RTs being overrun. Just absolutely gripping, when the heli and crew go down in flames, when they could have backed off, and said "too hard" at any time. But they didn't. It was all bad, from my little point of view, 40 years later.

this is an open forum, so don't admit to your role in any coups or other mercenary activity. There was one woman, and a handful of mercernaries left behind in Seychelles. They didn't try the woman. The did try the mercenaries. I think they were sentenced to death by hanging but not sure what happened. I'm not saying anything about who that woman was in Seychelles. But I'm just saying.... yeah i was gonna go look up the stuff, that bit about Hoare being "retired" in the Braden story I knew untrue because of the Seychelles coup attempt. I thought Hoare was involved in a Comoros coup attempt as well, but actually I think that was Colonel Bob Denard. (I've been to Comoros, but not while there was a coup attempt on. There were Safricans trapped on the island during the coup attempt.)

Orange1 asked "Can anybody tell me why on earth a KENNEDY would wear a cheap clip-on tie??? What twaddle!! " to paraphrase, are you asking me to find a picture of Robert Kennedy with a clip-on tie? :)

was the vet from Vietnam in the Seychelles thing. it's in the Time article link I just posted August 9,1982 "Only one was declared not guilty last week: Charles William Dukes, an American veteran of Viet Nam, who was carried onto the 707 under heavy sedation after being seriously wounded during the Seychelles gunfight. He was ruled incapable of having taken part in the heist."

(edit) more detail: Hoare and 43 mercenaries were disguised as tourists: rugby players and members of a beer-drinking group called the Ancient Order of Frothblowers. (edit) Also see Time magazine for this, report of Hoare's trial august 9, 1982 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925646,00.html see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Order_of_Froth_Blowers Apparently it's true? (the use as a cover during the Seychelles thing)

or unless you are simply following a script... Remember, the unanimous opinion of experienced jumpers here is any reserve was unnecessary (beside the point). That experienced jumper would not take a reserve... We actually never asked: why would an experienced jumper chose to take a reserve ... as a pillow? only the reserve is required to be packed by a rigger? Reserve is more likely to be functional? dunno. The Vietnam HALO jumpers jumped with reserves, at night, in the rain...why don't you question why they jumped with reserves??? (edit) I posted pics of Campbell, Bath, Waugh fully rigged up just before their combat HALO. So we know how they were rigged.

I tend to agree. Non jumpers would take it as a "set". Examples was the FAA Psychiatrist. Two sets = he's going to take a hostage out with him, ie. set implies intended action plan ... I think only a non-jumper would come up with a scenario of "taking someone with him". I can't imagine how it would work to take a non-cooperative person with you, with separate rigs. You'd have to push them out first, Or jump with them holding onto their rig...i.e. AFF? but there's no way you could hold on to them out of a jet. So basically it would be push and yell "pull the damn cord" Basically it would be murder...might as well push them out with no rig...Kind of hard to do...fighting them on the aft stairs in flight. I mean the idea of jumping with a hostage. Was just dumb. The whole thing was dumb. People pretending they were smart.

None of the above. Experienced jumpers here have been specific: (a) Jumper experienced would know the chutes, (b) know the odds, (c) would select based on background of experience... What exactly was wrong with anything Cooper did? I don't see him doing anything wrong. What should he have done differently? And why?

You have to read the Mad Mike Hoare link above to understand the story.... But here's what really happened. This story claims Kevin Beck screwed the pooch. In late 1979 he was recruited by Mike Hoare to take part in the attempted coup of the Seychelles. He got drunk on the plane taking the mercenaries to the Seychelles. Upon going through customs he went through the red channel instead of the green no declare. A weapon was found in the bottom of his bag thus started the shoot out in the air terminal by all the other mercenaries who had been on the plane, that led to the failed attempt. And that's what happened. (the wikipedia entry has the story slightly different, but could align with the above)

Orange1's comment about Mad Mike Hoare got me to the wikipedia entry. Quite amazing set of stories, worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hoare from the story about the coup attempt (S.A): "Hoare's men still had their weapons and Hoare asked the captain if he would allow the door to be opened so they could ditch the weapons over the sea before they returned to South Africa, but the captain laughed at Hoare's out-of-date knowledge on how pressurized aircraft functioned and told him it would not be possible." also: "One of the soldiers, an American veteran of the U.S. – Vietnam War was found not guilty of hijacking, for being seriously wounded in the firefight, and had been loaded aboard while sedated.[2] Many of the other mercenaries were quietly released after three months in their own prison wing." The coup attempt: "In 1978, Seychelles exiles in South Africa, acting in behalf of ex-president James Mancham, discussed with South African Government officials launching a coup d'état against the new president France-Albert René. The military option had been decided in Washington, D.C., after concerns for United States access to its new military base in Diego Garcia island, and the determination that René was not corruptible in favour of the Americans. Associates of Mancham contacted Hoare, then in South Africa as a civilian resident, to fight alongside fifty-three other mercenary soldiers, including South African special forces (Recces), former Rhodesian soldiers, and ex-Congo mercenaries" It'll be interesting to get the name of this Vietnam vet mentioned. I'll probably dig it up tonight, unless someone beats me to it.

Bruce, well done on following up on Braden. Snow, I can't say for sure but Africa was probably a hotbed for mercenaries in the 60s - a lot of countries were gaining independence, or gunning for it (literally). I've mentioned Congo before as an example, and as an area where we know CIA was very active, Equatorial Guinea has also been mentioned, must have been plenty other "opportunities". Edit: just seen your follow up posts so you have some ideas. I see you even found a link to Mad Mike Hoare. Orange1: so if you've digested all the Braden posts I made...(sorry for the lack of focus..I was just posting as I found stuff).. It's quite an amazing story. I didn't get the 1961 photo, but it's probably face down anyhow. It'd be good to get his exact age and height. But remember how you felt good that theorizing about it, and discovering that someone like Waugh existed made you feel good about your thinking. I'm thinking Braden might actually be a better psych profile match than Waugh. He mentioned in his article a key motivation - money. He didn't appreciate the low pay he got in Vietnam (I believe that's what he said in his article?) He apparently dropped out of sight. None of the SOG guys kept track of him...I guess since he deserted, he became a "black sheep" anyhow...and probably wouldn't brag about his SF background. It's interesting they cut him lose (no jail or charges) even after he was grabbed for desertion. Be really nice to get a face photo of him circa 1966 or whenever he was in SOG. It's really interesting how there's some mention of him pushing HALO stuff? Don't know if that's true. ..he did have HUGE experience...(see the 1962 competition in Scotland) ...I wonder if this was the insertion of Vietnamese teams into North Vietnam in smokejumper suits or other indigineous jumps (other than the 5 combat HALO jumps we've described). If Ckret was here, he could tell us if Ted had been investigated. But then again, Ckret never told us anything. And he might be busy looking at comic books under Tom's SEM.

Ancestry.com has the page, but they're down for the evening.. text says the following, which suggests a photo of him jumping "full spread quo[sic] posit[sic]" Interesting that he travelled Europe, (Scotland) maybe for competitions??? Subscription - Stars and Stripes Newspaper, Europe,... - Ancestry.com - May 28, 1961 Sgt Ted B Braden exits in the full spread quo posit J WEEKE By BOB H GREABELL S S Staff Writer S S Photos by TONY EVANOSKI LINDBERGH WE quo has been cha ..."

blowup of the cover attached. references article inside "A Green Beret turns Mercenary in the Congo" (near bottom left) attached (edit) The cover is John Lennon, which makes it a collectible.

Cousin Brucie, successful recon as usual with Plaster. I'm really, really impressed! I think what happens, is that as you display some skill, you get sent on the more hazardous ops now. So You got to talk to Ted B. Braden. I think this 80 year old in Niles, Ohio might be him. But can't find a phone. Got to get more detail on his the SF Braden's age. Maybe the Ramparts article would have it? will see if I can get a copy of it. If he was competing for US Army in skydiving in 1962, that's pretty interesting. He said he had 14 years military, in 1966, so he must go back a ways. I'm thinking maybe his age is about right? A lot of freefall experience in the early '60s.... If 80 now (born 1928) then 43 in 1971.

nigel99 said "Front and back parachutes sounds to me like the way I would describe a T10 type rig to my 9 year old." You don't remember who wrote down "front" do you? We don't know what Cooper said. We know what the stews wrote down. Does that change anything in your mind?

Get this. He did some competitive skydiving in 1962. Last paragraph on this page http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1962/1962%20-%202208.html "Scottish Parachuting. A US Army parachutist, Allan Tyre, won the Scottish Open Championships at Perth on September 15. Runner-up was Sgt. Ted Braden, also of the US Army; and third place went to Dr Charles Roberson, president of the Scottish Parachute club" This makes sense, given the claimed number of free fall jumps Braden had in his resume for Africa (hundreds) in 1966. (he claimed 695 free fall then, more if include SL)