snowmman

I first raised the question of the Denise story with Ckret in a PM way way back. He said there was nothing, so I let it drop. Didn't even post to the forum, although I mentioned it to Sluggo. I recently a month or so mentioned the Denise story again. What I really don't understand, is how come Ckret didn't give us anything on this before? Even if it's nothing and doesn't add anything, it at least was extra "evidence" that potentially modifies the story. Either Ckret didn't know, or he decided to just let us have the story as previously told? How could Ckret had not known? I can't understand any of this. I said Ckret was "full of shit" at one point. I was feeling a little bad about that recently. But now I'm wondering "Geez was I right". how I am supposed to digest this new release of information? And where is georger getting it from?

I've posted this before. There's not much, but apparently these are quotes from Denise, the little girl. (quote) "I thought it was play money," said Denise Ingram, 5, of Vancouver Wash., in an interview after the FBI disclosed that the money was from the Cooper hijacking. She said she and her cousin, Brian Ingram, 8, "both found it. It was buried in the sand. I gave it to Brian, so he could hand it to my aunt Pat." The child said she was on a family outing at a popular fishing sand bar for several Ingram relatives and their children. (endquote) The articles give the spelling of the mother's name as "Christal" ..also that she was 25 years old.

Yes the story of sand dry enough to brush away with Brian's hand, yet bundles that are soggy, may be slightly inconsistent. Pictures of Tena Bar tend to show flat black sand. The dig photos do show dry loose sand, so the sand must dry out if exposed for enough time. Not clear how long a bundle of money would take to dry out in drying sand. Yeah it's interesting if they were "representative" or not. From what we've seen, the analysis should have covered top/bottom/middle bills. The top and bottom would be most important. What I don't understand: If the bundle was soggy, how did they separate bills in the kitchen so quickly? Wet bills don't separate. You might be able to separate chunks, but not an individual bill? Even after drying it might be difficult. And why would anyone be eager to have just a "souvenir" ..i.e. one bill. I could see divying up the loot equally...But why hand out small numbers. Isn't it likely that they suspected D.B. Cooper money right away, and they were mulling over just what to do for max gain, during the time interval? I guess I don't buy this story that they didn't think of Cooper till he went to work. Now what we really don't know is whether there were more than 3 bundles at Tena Bar. The 12 mini-bundles the FBI showed, (the first money) seemed plausibly a breakup of 3 original bundles. The future court case seemed to only talk about $6000 or so. So are the extra bills just small amounts, and the story of 3 bundles etc still basically correct, in terms of quantity?

just another random video. This is a modern one. Nothing for you guys who know stuff, but interesting for me. Showing C-9 deployments. It starts out looking bogus, cause of it's bogus title and music first has some jet ejection examples but then there's apparently a bunch of recent military test jumps of C-9's, the orange/white/sage versions, just out of a Cessna sized plane. A lot are right out of the plane. It seems like the jumpers are trying different positions on the pull...a number are not belly to the ground. There's one or two where the C-9 doesn't seem to deploy immediately correctly. Interesting to watch. The camera guy is generally right next to the guy deploying the C-9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCH6PAlNMoA (edit) there's one deployment where the guy turns his head around to look, and the fabric looks like crap, and he does things with his body position quickly, and the deployment is then good. Maybe people can comment. Makes me wonder about deployment reliability, even at lower speeds.

okay, well obviously I've thrown out Harold's brother as a possibility, as well as raising questions about what address they were really staying at. If Harold was staying with someone in WA, the brother makes the most sense. I was trying to put together the entire Ingram family at one time...I think some of them were still in OK in '71? There was also something down in CA cause Harold/Patricia went down there at some point after the money find before returning to OK...there was a newspaper article with the town and a picture of Patricia and Brian. Also, if the brother was divorced from Crystal, it might make sense that he didn't go to Tena Bar. I haven't looked at this since May, so maybe need to dig again.

I am 99% sure the bailout rig did not have a diaper. They showed up on round reserves late in the game and reduced inversion malfunctions. Riggers can chime in here. The C9 is an incredibly strong canopy having continuous suspension lines reinforcing the entire canopy unlike other round canopies where they are just attached to the skirt by stitching and end there. C9s were desiged for jet ejections. They are not indestructable, but they are very very robust. My old C9 had a high descent rate (porous ripstop nylon material) but I never worried about its strength. If you limited UV exposure they were like the Rock of Gibralter. Now that we know about squidding and have a rough idea of the NWA 727 exit speed I think the chances of a malfunction or major canopy damage are very very low. 377 I've read all of the NickDG comments and the squidding stuff, but I've also seen these mentions of the permeability having an effect on opening shock. (there's a program OSCALC that's interesting that was done under Army-Natick labs contract). There's a lot of research online as mil reports that was done in the '40s and '50s on rounds. In any case per http://books.google.com/books?id=2PopFBjLZV8C&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=c9+canopy+permeability+cfm&source=web&ots=lcpSzavX7T&sig=C5tQMM2WniTYKiI-g9enD43sdXg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result the C-9 is made from MIL-C-7020 Type 1 ripstop nylon fabric? breaking strength 42 lbs/in. minimum 20% elongation in both directions, minimum 80-120 CFM air permeability interesting. seems more like a sieve compared to the fabrics used in modern canopies?

There were a couple articles that quickly printed the story as kids digging in the sand, finding the money. Attached is the 2/17/80 article in the NYT. I always assumed they had gotten it wrong. But now from what Georger is saying maybe they were right? Who knows who they talked to. It's hard to believe that Crystal would go into so much detail about something that wasn't true? Was she just supporting her daughter Denise, who made up the story? In another article, Denise evidently tells the story on her own to a reporter. I've posted that before. I guess Crystal didn't really see it, so is relying on what Denise said? This 2/17/80 article has the sticks poking in the mud angle.

I guess we're rehashing stuff..for me of limited knowledge, I thought Butler's paper here was informative: http://www.butlerparachutes.com/PDF/PIApresen.pdf on page 7, he highlights his qualitive perception that it's a question of deployment reliability decreasing for increased speed, for all canopies, just with different curves and knees. He does mention that he thinks military parachutes have benefit because of their high cloth permeability..perhaps not until 180-200 knots before you see a spike in malfunctions. His opinions were based on a lot of testing he did. this was his thinking in '98? I don't know how it applies to C-9's used in '71. (edit) but notice all of butler's stuff is talking about rounds so it should apply? He does caveat it with "deployment diapers" and I guess everything says there was no such thing on Cooper's rig. I think this all is another case of not enough data to make any rational estimate of deployment reliability. At the very least though, it seems reasonable to say that the fail rate wouldn't have been 100%.. Which is kind of where we left it before. We just couldnt' say for sure? Butler has some nice sequence photos of failures in that doc. Like on page 17.

the right path to do that would be to download a higher resolution version from the site I provided before, and then just load it into a video edit and grab whatever frame you like. There's no reason to do that, so I won't. I'm scratching my head at what process you might dream up to find the guys, assuming you had a good picture but nothing else?

There are no facts in your world - only searches. G. look at your post on your screen. Whose world are you in? If my world has no facts, then you don't exist.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say georger. I always fall back on my "there are no facts" claim :) that pretty much covers me.

From that same Dallas Morning News article: "Sid Tipper comes to the party once in a while. Tipper, 87, born in England, came to Vancouver in 1923. He was fishing on the beach the day the boy found part of Cooper's loot. He was fishing the day the FBI moved in to search. Unless it's Christmas and he is playing Santa at a local store, he'll be fishing there when Tosaw puts his divers in. "I think Cooper's caught up in one of those creeks (along the Columbia),' Tipper said. "High water lifted that money out. It was one of the highest stages in years.'"

Sorry.Now you have me confused. What does DAVID Ingram have to do with this? David has never made any claim on this money nor said he was even there. G. :) Exactly. That's why we would suspect him. I'm using Jo logic. Until you can prove someone's not guilty, you assume they are. Actually just throwing out the David thing because it was something I was musing about back in May, and the recent conversation just stirred it up again. I had been trying to work out a list of who was at Tina Bar. You're saying David wasn't? Just the people you mentioned? or are you not sure of the complete list either?

This is from the Dallas Morning News, Nov. 20, 1986 What I don't understand, is how Tosaw reconciles the flight path, which doesn't seem to coincide with his theory. Interesting what he says about his conversation with the mother, and with Tina about Cooper putting the rig on. Note this article was after he had published his book. "As Tosaw explains it, when Cooper released two of the three flight attendants in Seattle before the final take-off, he pulled some bills from the bag and offered them a "tip.' They refused. "I believe he stuffed those bills inside his coat or clothing, maybe under his belt. That's the $6,000 that came up (actually $5,800; 10 bills were missing from one packet). The rest is in the bag. If the bag had opened, a lot more would have been found. That beach is a popular place, with people on it every day of the year. Besides, the FBI dug up the whole beach area after the discovery.' Tosaw obtained the key to his theory long after the bills were found. "The money was still in packets, with rubber bands around them, though the bands broke as soon as they were touched,' he said. "That showed it couldn't have come far. It couldn't have been there long.' Early reports said the packets were scattered near each other and covered with sand. But while talking with the mother of Brian Ingram, the 8-year-old boy who found the money, Tosaw said he made a further discovery. "The packets were still in a clump, pressed together, not scattered, not really covered. They hadn't come far enough even to separate,' he said. "That makes the eddy just above the beach the prime search area.' ... "Tina was the only one to really see Cooper,' Tosaw said. "I was able to talk with her by telephone with permission of her mother superior.' Ms. Mucklow is a nun now, a member of a cloistered order in Oregon. "She's very happy in her life,' a friend said. "He knew that plane intimately,' Tosaw said. "Tina said he put the chute on as if he'd done it every day. He just had a little trouble getting the stairs down. He went farther than he planned. He had no idea where he was when he jumped.'

Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Could David R. Ingram have been the original real finder of all the money? He's the one who's most silent in the whole affair? Did it fall out of the sky into his backyard?

This is startling. Don't know what to make of it. The 12 bundles we have a photo of, on the green table, were taken after the initial report to the FBI by Harold and Patricia..like that day I believe. So any money turned in later, we don't have photos of? This is all confusing. (edit) OR: did Crystal turn in her money before the green table photos were taken? was it that day, or the next day or ??? Were the black bills turned in later? Is that why it's hard to understand where all the brown/black bills came from, based on the 12 bundle photo?

I just read a small blip in a news article that said Tosaw was involved in helping get the money released (thru the courts) in 1986. supposedly there was a family lawyer? and the lawyer on the insurance side, too?

Ah now a lot more info is coming out about the Ingrams. You remember how Brian's ex-wife got on suite101 with Jo and was talking about how the money was something that just "wasn't discussed" in the family. She sensed some weird vibe. She went off on weird tangent theories, but I always wondered if her vibe meant there was more to the story. From what georger is saying, there was? The Market Sts. in Portland are usually prefaced by SE or SW, from what I can see. But I don't think the Ingrams were in Portland??? From what I have, I thought Harold and Patricia were at the same address in Vancouver with David, but that could be wrong. We do have the picture of Brian playing in the snow taken by photographers after the find. It's not at Tena Bar. It's likely to be near where they lived. We also have a picture of the Ingrams in their place on a couch, but that wouldn't help.

I can't find any Market St. in Vancouver. The address I had (forgot the source) was 2517 E 35th St. Vancouver, which is just E of I5 possibly shared with David R. Ingram, who is two years older than Harold? Where did you get the Market St. info? is it wrong? do any of my notes above jibe with any notes you have?

I suppose it was ruled out that there was any charring of the bills from burning? I've been reading about pollution in the Columbia. Evidently a high level of PCB's have been found (warning on eating clams from the area near Tena Bar/Frenchman's Reef). Also pollution due to the Alcoa smelter down closer to Vancouver. They're cleaning it up now. "The ALCOA (also known as Vancouver Smelter) site, located on the northern bank of the Columbia River about 4 miles west of Interstate 5 in Vancouver, Clark County, Washington, has been proposed for the National Priorities List. The site consists of three waste piles containing about 66,000 tons of waste (spent potlinings and alumina insulation) that were deposited on the north bank of the Columbia River by ALCOA between 1973 and 1981. ALCOA has since sold the aluminum smelter to another company, VANALCO. The contaminants detected in the groundwater in the area surrounding the piles include cyanide, fluoride, and trichloroethene (TCE). The ALCOA site is of potential public health concern because humans may be exposed to hazardous substances at concentrations that may result in adverse health effects." Also, high levels of mercury in fish and clams, in Columbia and Vancouver Lake? The clams were apparently "introduced" in the '70s by immigrants from Asian countries. Pesticides still, like DDT, dioxin? Wonder if the bills might have absorbed any of these more organic residues?

377 had some good thoughts on that FBI hiring blitz I posted about. We do talk about FBI and what they do and don''t do, so FBI is on topic. I mentioned months ago that it felt like 1971 to me.. was reading Todd Harrison today, and while he tends to think about extremes, so he can bound risk, it's interesting that the paragraph at bottom is a reasonable thing for a reasonable person to say.... It makes one wonder about just who or what the enemy is, and how we're focusing FBI/CIA and why. It really struck me as funny that the CIA would get worked up about an outsider (Panetta) leading them. That's usually a sure sign that things are messed up. Be interested in hearing what Orange1 thinks about US econ/political wise...although I can understand if she wants to hold her tongue! Todd Harrison (musing about predictions for US) "The not-so-quiet riot The age of austerity has officially arrived and we'll see a steady stream of social strife as the rejection of wealth increases in size and scope. While societal acrimony began to percolate last year, this dynamic will manifest through unrest and geopolitical conflict as we edge ahead. This is, without question, the single biggest socioeconomic risk as we stand at a critical crossroads. On one side, orderly debt destruction ultimately will pave the way for true globalization. On the other, there is isolationism and protectionism as sovereign nations protect their interests at any cost. If calmer heads don't prevail and the global community takes a turn for the worse, history books likely will point to "shock and awe" as the beginning of World War III."

orange1 said: That seems like the most rational thing I've ever heard from a jumper here! Some more whuffo musings (although I'm apparently not allowed to use that word? Maybe I have to use full sentences to describe anything, rather than shorthand? JOKE!) I've always wondered why you guys don't practice more uses of the reserve...i.e. it would seem there should be more widespread use of reserves to make sure that when you need them, things will always go right. And not just deploying them, but the full process of going from main to reserve. I saw a video where some factory team or something did a bunch of cutaways just to be cool on the video. But I would think, if I was going to rely on a reserve, that I'd want to do 2-3 planned cutaways a year, just so I'd be more confident unplanned ones (with more chaos) would go smoothly. It's almost guaranteed that there's a fail rate associated with any process that's not used a lot..either because of insufficient info about the process due to disuse, changes that weren't discovered prior, or whatever. If the overall reserve process, is something that people aren't confident enough about, to do on purpose in controlled situations, 2-3 times every year, shouldn't that make one wonder?

Jo said: Jo, I created a wordle of your last post. I like it! Attached. It would be a good part of a poster for your movie. see http://www.wordle.net if you're curious about what a wordle is. It would be very cool to get all of your posts and create a wordle of them all. Hey I noticed that when I posted a bunch of Cooper vids the same week..i.e. Carr showing the evidence, and my 12/24/08 Cooper sketch animation, that so far, the Cooper sketch animation has the most views. I think if I had made it longer, and maybe more swearing, it'd have gone viral. :) Although the 727 air drop test is doing pretty good. I think because I tagged it with CIA. Hey Senses Fail bills itself as "post-hardcore" Their D.B Cooper song wasn't on their US CD, but available elsewhere. They're going on tour this year. What's funny, is there's a vid of a kid playing drums to the D.B. Cooper song. In his mind, D.B. Cooper is just some intense drumming in his basement. Yah! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nah1TBua6rg I like it! AND: I saw this note claiming that because of no wing engines, that the flaps were better on the 727, so it was the best flying at low speeds compared to other jets of the time...that's interesting, no! Not just the aft stairway, but good low speed stability! (although Cooper didn't force it to it's minimum speed) "Due to the absence of wing-mounted engines, leading-edge lift enhancement equipment (Krueger, or hinged, flaps on the inner portion of the leading edge, and extendable leading-edge slats on the remainder of the leading edge), and trailing-edge lift enhancement equipment (triple-slotted[4], aft-moving flaps) could be used on the entire wing. The combination of these high-lift devices produced a maximum wing lift coefficient of 3.6 (based on the flap-retracted wing area). Thus the 727 could fly with great stability at very low speeds compared to other early jets. "

some of the news articles mentioned finding money "three feet down"...I'm thinking now that was myth..i.e. they were really referencing the 3 foot deep trenches that were dug? If anything was found 3 feet down, it would be under that clay layer we've discussed...so that doesn't make sense. But yeah, we've mentioned before how we're not sure if any other fragments were found. I think Ckret said no, but it's odd that the news articles apparently quoted FBI agents as saying they had found some. If they did, were they just thrown into the mass of "found money" and divvied up with Brian later on? Because the FBI bill set, really doesn't have any small fragments. The FBI, if they found more, would have been small fragments......but the FBI doesn't have any small fragments...so if they found any, they gave it to Brian? doesn't make sense? maybe they didn't find anything.

georger mused: I had done some searching on where the Ingrams were living. I believe it was in Vancouver, actually relatively close to the flight path. I'm not perfectly confident on the address. I think they may have been living with a relative, maybe the brother? they had just arrived from OK..and they left WA a couple months after the money find. In any case, if they were "from" Vancouver, I don't think Tina Bar was a well known place name? There's not much out there. Vancouver Lake may have been the best way to quickly describe "out there"..although it is odd that "on the shore of the Columbia" doesn't come to mind first...or "up past Frenchman's Reef"...I'm not sure how developed Frenchman's was then...it's more developed now as a state beach/park thing? (although I read that they are considered "beach bums" because they don't monitor water quality...evidently there's been cases of sewage etc, at Frenchman's...