snowmman

maybe it means nothing. It's interesting that the word "partially" is used. Who first used the word. Cooper? The pilot? How did it get in the FBI transcript. It's interesting that the word "partially" is underlined on the page (pen or pencil). Someone reading the transcript afterward it was typed/copied, and thought "partially" was interesting too, and underlined it. Maybe it all means nothing. Too bad we don't have the exact Cooper cabin exchange on this.

okay, replaying some stuff, just because I confused the situation a bit, and wanted to clean things up. two pics. one from the inside, which we've seen before when we were exploring the idea of hiding spaces. It shows the placement of the vertical hydraulic arm, and when combined with all the previous pics, confirms there's no need for any secondary folding stairs or anything. There's the top stairs which don't move, and the stairs on the moving part. That's it. And the vertical arms are near the bottom. And surprisingly, the aluminum that forms the outer skin does impact the ground when the stairs are lowered? That's odd. I would think it would dent, etc. Second pic is the stairs in use...you can see fabric sidewalls on this one. This one is nice cause someone is on the stairs going down.

Here's a pic of a 727 rear air stair from 1967 with no fabric sidewall on the stairs. I'm thinking I was all confused about the stairs. The vertical hydraulic arm is placed differently on the md-88 vs the 727 and I had some mistakenly labelled photos. So partial deployment of the stairs would only refer to their angle...there is no secondary folding or sliding parts or anything like that. I included the best of the Braniff series showing "partial deployment" in flight. (unknown speed. How did they drop? just gravity?)

Correction: I'm looking at more pics of 727 stairs and maybe I was mixing up the md-88 and 727 stairs too much. the 727 stairs on sluggo's site do appear to have the vertical arm near the bottom. Okay I think the guy who posted that video may have been connected to that 727 being used for freight. Same guy posted this video of him apparently standing in the cockpit videoing during a landing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68_ejEbYgXA Okay his blog has more: http://dayinthelifeoftrent.blogspot.com/2009/01/my-year-of-flying-boeing-727.html "Way back in 2006 I had the adventure of flying as a First Officer on board a Boeing 727. The airline was a small cargo outfit out of Miami called Amerijet. The experience was quite an eye opener for me. It was real grit flying to some very exotic places in Central and South America. Most 727 operators hire new flight crew as Flight Engineers, but not Amerijet. Amerijet, due to pilot attrition, was looking at new hires as potential Captains a year down the line. The Flight Engineers were basically Mechanics first and Flight Engineers second. We were hired after attending a Pilots Job Fair at Aeroservice in Miami." "Loading cargo was the duty of the First Officers and it was a critical task. FE's were busy with fuel loading and planning, while the Captain was busy in the Flight Room and shooting the shit." yeah what's odd is I don't see the fabric sidewalls on the stairs, which was characteristic of 727 stairs, and I thought the 727 stairs extended beyond the vertical hydaulic arm, whereas the video seems to have the stairs ending at the hydraulic arm. (edit) I'm revisiting this thought right now. Even the md-88 stairs I posted extended beyond the vertical hydraulic arms a bit.

Great point - if he opened it using the ripcord. But if he cut the container open to get the chute out, that might pin him as a non-jumper? I don't recall seeing anything at all about the ripcord handle. the ripcord handle was recovered. Ckret confirmed and I later provided snaps from a video that showed it. It was a metal cloverleaf, consistent with what you expect for that reserve that was opened. (edit) I think there were enough snaps from videos to say that the reserve container doesn't appear to have been cut in any way. Also, georger was going on about weapons. Cooper likely used his own knife, rather than cutlery to cut the lines. There are a number of cases of hijacker threatening stewardess with knife, I remember one case where the knife was held to her throat. Georger might say Cooper wouldn't have advanced to such violence, but who knows. That was one of the advantages of having a stew close by? maybe?

here's how you operate the airstairs from the outside http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg (edit) But: maybe 377 can chime in, it looks more like md-88 stairs? there's no folding or lower bit? I'm still confused about whether there is something that folds or rolls out on any of these stairs. Maybe the answer is no. It makes this next story sort of believable. It's at the same site as the last air stair story. I believe from the same flight engineer. http://funnyairlinestories.com/stories/single_story.asp?id=140 "We had just been cleared onto the active for our flight from Mexico City to Dallas. I had made the PA advising the Flight Attendants to be seated for takeoff when the call bell goes off. I answered the interphone, and a Flight Attendant told me to taxi clear of the runway and depressurize the aircraft. I questioned her, but she said: “Just do it.” As we were leaving the runway, I noticed the Aft Entry Door light come on and go out. She called to say everything is okay now, and she will explain later. We were dying of curiousity. She finally come up to explain. Turns out that a passenger was late arriving at the gate. Braniff didn’t want to lose any revenue but also didn’t want the delay, so someone decided to run this guy up the airstairs. Security was not a major issue back then, so the agent run this guy out on the ramp and to the back of our airplane. Of course, nobody advised the crew what was going on. The Agent lowered the airstairs and told the guy to get onboard. He scoots up the airstairs, and the agent raises the stairs. Unfortunately, the agent hadn’t explained how to get in the aircraft. By this time it is dark, the only illumination coming from the small porthole in the Aft Entry Door. The passenger finally finds the door handle but can’t open the door since by now the engines are all running and we are pressurized. He bangs on the door but nobody hears him since the F/As are in the cabin taking drink orders. He starts to get scared and starts to scream. Then just before takeoff, the aft F/As sit down and hear something. One of them finally turns around and sees a panic-stricken face in the porthole. Not sure which would have gotten him, the noise level, the cold or the hypoxia."

My photos of the partial extension of the airstairs, for an in-flight 727, in the LIFE series of photos, and my question about whether the lower half slides out or folds down, made me realized I didn't understand the partial extension request made by Cooper. So while we've reviewed this before, I'll just note it again since I was reading the FBI transcript again. I've attached the documented exchange on the stair request from the FBI transcript from Sluggo's site page 2 and 3 http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Logs%2006-20-2008R.pdf It's also interesting that in this report, the request for chutes were "chest-pack" and "back-pack" (not front-pack). I've raised questions about whether "front-pack" was a stewardess miscommunication. Note it's odd that Cooper apparently engaged in dialog about partial stair extension. (page 3) While it's obvious that the stairs extend, for any passenger, the partial extension issue isn't as obvious? This dialog about the stairs may have contributed to Rataczak's feeling about the amount of knowledge Cooper had.

this is from http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/fly%20odds/thumb.html Estimation of Take Off V Speeds * Flap 15 V2 Speed will be 12 Kts more than V1/VR speed * Flap 5 speeds should be about 8 kts more than flaps 15 V1/VR speed * Flap 25 speeds will be about 8 kts less than flaps 15 V1/VR speed Again you use the above procedure but add 104 at item 3 Using the same 140,000lb example Weight over 100,000lbs is 40 Divide 40 by 2 to get 20 Add 104 to get V Ref Flap 15 So That's 20+104 That equals 124 Kts This is an approximation of V Ref flaps 40 and V1/VR for flaps 15. So finishing the example using the above criteria flap 15 V1/VR=124; V2 124 + 12=136 knots flap 5 V1/VR+8=132; V2 132+12=144 knots flap 25 V1/VR-8=116; V2 116+12=128 knots there must be adjustments for altitude/temp though? I'm just wondering if when you look at "everything" as in 1971, that the flaps at takeoff had to be at 15 degrees.

well, I tend to read some of Sluggo's posts as attempting to lecture, when lecturing isn't really what's required. There's this post from Sluggo in the past, but I don't think it answers the question "What flap settings were FAA approved for takeoff for 727 in 1971". In fact, someone could address my premise: that there were only 1 or 2 settings the pilots were supposed to choose from, and that the FAA is involved somehow in saying what's "okay" I'm not familiar with these issues, and I don't think Sluggo has flown a 727, so maybe someone else can chime in on the details of which flap settings were used when, on a 727, in 1971. a Sluggo post in this area, from the past: (it mentions 5/15/25 for takeoff). "The 727-100 has the following Flap settings: 727-100 HIGH LIFT DEVICES Flap positions are: UP 2, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30, and 40 with gates at the 2 and 25 positions. 5,15,25 Normally T-O and 30, 15, 5, Normal Landing. At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for landing with 15 degrees flaps is: 142 knots At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for Take-off with 15 degrees flaps is: 136 knots. As you see these values are much lower that 160 – 170 knots being flown by 305. Air Speed with any flap setting is controlled by Power (Throttle) setting, Pitch setting, and Company and Airport procedures/policy. "

I had read some stuff on what flap settings were approved for 727 on takeoff by FAA. apparently changed over the years? In any case, 15 degrees was the typical flap setting for takeoff right? There has been at least one crash attributed to flaps not being deployed right on takeoff. I thought I remember reading that

we touched on the Michael Taylor articles before search for Michael Taylor posted by snowmman

georger said: "...wrap correctly but this space for writing is what it is, I can only type and try to wrap correctly, but nothing comes out rgitht no matter what I do so I" You're doing too much. You don't need to use the Enter (newline) key as much as you are. Only use "Enter" when you want to start a new paragraph. Never if you start a new sentence within a paragraph. If you want a blank line between paragraphs, hit "Enter" twice. That's it. Any more "Enter" usage, and you'll create the problems you mention.

orange1: at that link that mentioned use of the DC-3 and 727. I think you misread that. They didn't say they jumped out of those planes. I think they just got around the West, via airports, with those planes. Said it was a Boise "hotshot" crew. Not necessarily jumpers either. (edit) in fact, text in the article seems to confirm the author wasn't a jumper: "In the above photo, the building behind the DC-3 is the Jumper Loft, our crew headquarters. The Loft had been used by the Boise Smokejumpers until they were disbanded in 1980." (edit) you can see what a "hotshot" crew is here. basically rapid-response. I think it's more a ego thing than anything. Kind of like saying you're in the Marines? meanwhile you're being shipped around during the summer doing a lot of dangerous hot, tiring work. http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/ http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_hist.html

Snow, Was that a double blind study? What was the hooker placebo? 377 Could it be that georger is the sad after effects of the other side of that double blind study? (the no-party side?) "The in-house testing phase now over, MK-ULTRA decided to use the drug surreptitiously in the street to gauge its effects. They contract-hired George Hunter White, a narcotics officer, to set up Operation Midnight Climax, according to Lee and Shlain, "in which drug-addicted prostitutes were hired to pick up men from local bars and bring them back to a CIA-financed bordello. Unknowing customers were treated to drinks laced with LSD while White sat on a portable toilet behind two-way mirrors, sipping martinis and watching every stoned and kinky moment." Lee and Shlain go on to comment, "when (White) wasn't operating a national security whorehouse," White threw wild parties for his "narc buddies" with his ready supply of prostitutes and drugs." wikipedia also has an entry here on the Operation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax

Sluggo said: 'Sluggo_Monster (Stopping nuclear proliferation through “Conduct of Operations Improvement”)' Yes, just need a Cooper vane or two and we'll all be safe. I have another strategy. Find out how much gold the guys who have the keys to doors want. Get back to me.

I thought I covered most of the LSD stuff already, although it was joking, the facts were correct. I was surprised to find Ted Kaczynski's involvement in a MKULTRA experiment (not LSD though). I didn't mention it, but one part of the CIA stuff back then involved both LSD and hookers. really.

that's weird, cause I had read something like that just recently..is this the one you're talking about? Complicated plotline. calls Tina, Amanda. Here in 2005 http://nypintafanfic.blogspot.com/2005/04/another-view-of-db-cooper-story.html "Conrad Poe" is a time traveller in the story? I think? Interesting for 377 and Gossett. Also interesting because we've mentioned Conrad before, and Edgar Allan Poe can be related thematically? Poe: The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym? (truth/meaning) Orange1: Did you find the Amanda story thru Google blog search? I'm curious how you ran in to it around when I did..I always figure we respond to the same ebbs and flows of thought here. ...Hey I read a synopsis of Conrad's Heart of Darkness, because of your mention. It sounds very good. I have to read it. ..who was the narrator? Cooper? :) And yes, I agree that Jo accuses everyone else of lying, but she's perfectly comfortable lying when it suits her purposes. She's even said so. We can all be a little self-centered, but Jo is to an extreme. A cautionary tale, for me. from the end of the fiction story: She studies his face for a moment then says, “So, you have been looking for him for over a century? Why?” “He killed two men.” “Oh,” was all she says. They stand in silence as the last of her bags are packed away. Just as she is about to get into the cab, he says absently, “You didn’t think it was for the gold did you?” She stops short and turns, “Gold? What gold?” “Nah,” he says, then looks away and shrugs, “I don’t really think there is any.” “But?” “Conrad insisted he had some buried somewhere around Santa Clara Valley. Near Newhall.” “Really?” Amanda asks trying to sound disinterested. “Yes. He said the money from the plane was to fund another expedition. It’s too bad really. All that supposed gold just waiting to be found.” “Yeah. Too bad,” she says absently. He smiles at her as he can see her mind working, and then says brightly, “It was a pleasure to finally meet you Amanda. Take care of yourself.” “Yes,” she says, flashing her best smile, but obviously still distracted, “ you too.”

Jo, serious question. If Duane had a daughter, and you found a picture of a little girl, why wasn't your first guess that it's a picture of said girl? Do you have other information? I mean, most other people would have went that way. Why did you go the "Tina way"? The photo paper/processing might be dateable. If it was Tina, it would have to have been taken around when? (fill in your estimate). I'm guessing 1955 or so? If it was the mysterious Zona, it would have been taken earlier? Why don't you introduce discussion along those lines. Surely you've thought about those issues? if you've been looking at this for 13 years. Spill out your numbers, facts. (edit) To be blunt, I'm suggesting you actually don't look for facts when you could..i.e. you have something in your hand that could be easily analyzed. (edit) jo mysteriously said: "NONE of you have known what was going on in the background" well I did a deal today where the guy said "cash only. Bring hundreds". I did. Gold was in the background when we made the deal. Really. The offshore account was never mentioned. This is all true.

I am Tina. (it's the only thing the scriptwriters could come up with at this point) (edit) And Jo, I'm sorry to hear about your niece. It sounds like a very tough situation for the kids. Hopefully people can rally for them.

started looking thru blogs for cooper references. here's an interesting one (not me) (I'm playing Lou's Dime Store Mystery as background) http://dbcooperchurch.blogspot.com/2008/12/i-believe.html The New Cult on the Block In 1971, DB Cooper jumped from a plane over Washington State with a $200,000 ransom. He was never found. In fact, he never hit the ground. He attained enlightenment in mid-space and transformed into Light. The DB Cooper Church of Perpetual Grace is the new Cult on the block. We are dedicated to transmitting the teachings that DB Cooper revealed psychically to our church. With this new knowledge, we developed the most complete 12-step system of metaprogramming to be inflicted on the human race – PsiOntology. Only by following this system can one be inoculated against the JC Virus and survive AEONRUIN. Prison Break - Show of Lies The Legacy of DB Cooper continues its slide into absurdity as corporate interests co-opt his image to look hip and relevant. The latest outrage occurs in the hit TV series, Prison Break, where the Prophet is portrayed as a feeble old man who ends up dying before the inmates escape. Unfortunately, this has created much confusion among the membership. Many have watched this program and now actually believe that the Prophet died during a prison breakout, while lesser characters, including one with serious mental illness, escaped with ease, outrunning cars and helicopters in an open field during the season finale. The second season continued with the escapees working through numerous implausible storylines, the framework of which were set up by Michael before entering prison, and thus demonstrating perfect harmony with the Tao. However, we find the portrayal of DBC's ransom money hidden under the carport of a new sub-division to be particularly offensive, ignoring the deep esoteric implications of His Fall and Redemption. Of course, insanity and the desire to sell soap continued as the plotline became increasingly absurd, reflecting the multiple political schisms in our rundown society perfectly. We had thought DB Cooper was left to storylines past, but there is a specter haunting the tube. In a recent trailer for future episodes, the ghost of DB Cooper seems to make an appearance. Will he be a feeble old man or the true Fallen Man, Holy Ghost of the Abyss? We all know DBC transmigrated during the Fall, taking the role of Light Bearer of the New Aeon from Lucifer, who retired to the simulation of Paradise, Whistler BC. The word of Rapture and Aeonruin reverberate today as it did when it was first pronounced. Attention all members, affiliated Psychonauts and assorted hangers-on, the Corruption of the Image signals the proliferation of similacra, a sign of the Apocalypse. As serious occultists, we find this trend distressing. The Church has embarked on an exploration of the psychogeography of deep reality in order to combat this psychic shift and to reclaim our exoteric sigils from further degradation. Do they dare show the Truth?

with respect to the Jon Benet case. In terms of "civilian investigators" ...the data that's available in the Jon Benet case is much better organized? Hmm. Maybe what we need is a wiki. That's a thing like wikipedia, but not under the editorial control of wikipedia. Then we can have multiple editors on a single set of pages. As an example, here is one wiki on the jon benet case. The evidence is presented pretty well. I'm not sure if there are better sites. ..just did a quick scan. http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com See this forum is fun for discussion, but as everyone can see, we don't have a good place we collect everything that's considered relevant. Sluggo does his work, but obviously he's constrained by time, and also his view of relevance. Just something to think about. It's easy for me to say "wouldn't this be cool" but obviously I'm not volunteering :) Hey if we get Jo technically upgraded, maybe she will! She's obviously the most organized of all of us.. Imagine having Jo accept alternate theories for the sake of completeness! (edit) In terms of a "fer-instance" for a real plan for the FBI including "civilian investigators" and "what would you have done"...creating a wiki is something I would have done, I think? Cheap, enables information to be gathered and organized. Scales with people...wikipedia itself is a good example. I would pitch it inside the FBI as a test pilot for future ways of interacting with the public. The old-school "phone it in and we'll investigate it" doesn't scale with the modern world. What's a better solution? Don't know. that's why you test different things.

Well it is a 727. Yeah I was surprised when I saw it. Weird. Described as: "Picture of a 727's payload container--fuel tanks--carries fuel to remote mining sites " from http://mahoney.aero/pics/ search for that text on that page. It's an aero nut's site, so I'm guessing accurate?...i.e. accurate as far as that's the accurate cover story for Sluggo's Great Adventure. I'm guessing they're using a normal 727 which was modified for cargo-only, and that the tanks just happen to be a particular shipment? 377: sorry to hear about your friend you mentioned. And airtwardo: it's good when I can get the song playing in someone else's head too :) I commiserated to 377 before about how I cut up the DVD with all my Lou Reed mp3s in a fit of law-abidingnence. Never again! (edit) oh the black plane was Mexican federal police plane. I photoshopped out their markings. The black is cool though!

ok, I was kind of sure of it when I saw how they had recruited bull-riding smokejumpers as kickers for nukes in Dr. Strangelove. But I just got this snap of nukes being loaded aboard the black 727 at the ranch. 377 was right. The delivery system from the video was never thrown away. Ah well, mystery solved. Good night, sleep tight!

georger theorized: You're right. One last thing. I'm the first to say "just coincidence" on random stuff. But here we have a thread with a FBI agent, and a guy inside Area 51. And since we can hack his laptop and cellphone, we can snap pictures remotely and finally get the pictures the world has been waiting for. I think I was the first to introduce the Roswell connection to DBC way back in this thread. Back when everyone said "no way". Well, I don't mean to show all my cards....but... Is it just "coincidence" that a black-op 727 shows up at Grissom Lake, the same week Sluggo mysteriously appears at the ranch, and the Lost Boy photo appears? And how can a plane with no markings at all, be allowed to fly in the US? Especially with Sluggo aboard? Sure, I can stop. But the truth is out there.

okay, i've made some headway. Went the female way on the face construction, and got the attached. Call her "DZ girl" Initally thought "Little Tina" sure, but running thru all the posts on DZ.com about skydiving, and it points to this "DZ girl" profile. Some kind of story about how she ran away at 19, hooked up with a guy in a trailer at some DZ in Indiana, dumped him when winter hit and headed west. etc. Eventually ended up being connected with the hijacking. Kinda sad. Cause she didn't get her cut of the loot. Or maybe more like this? DZ girl came from Pensacola, F.L.A. Hitch-hiked her way across the USA Plucked her eyebrows on the way Shaved her legs and then he was a she She says, Hey babe Take a walk on the wild side Duane is just speeding away Thought she was James Dean for a day Then I guess he had to crash A hijacking would have helped that bash Said, Hey babe, Take a walk on the wild side