snowmman

Hi Jerry. Are you saying you have more information from someplace other than the transcripts? Or are you interpreting the transcripts or ???

" The stairs immediately reacted by becomming abrubtly closed and we could feel a huge pressure bump in our ears. So I quickly got onto the air traffic control center and said, 'I think our friend just took leave of us.'" (PLF's quote of Wm Rataczak) I know you quoted PLF quoting Rat. But isn't that account just the stuff from the writers? There is no reputable source for that happening right? I'm wondering why you repeated that, Sluggo? Do you think it's true? If not, why repeat it? (edit) Sluggo said: 'But you also know as well as I do he later referred to the "pressure bump" in these terms quoted below -" No I don't. Name your source for the quote by Rataczak. My fuzzy memory is now reminding me of the Discovery channel thing. Maybe Rataczak said it there? (many years later) But did he really call it in in 1971? If so, are you saying there's another transcript or channel where he said that?

of how easy it is to be wrong in terminology. earlier, Ckret on Nov 28, 2007 posted: "The pressure bump occurred at 8:11PM, this put the fight in the area of Highland, Wa or grid 18 of a Clark County." Now we all know that things have changed since then. On Nov 2, 2008, even Ckret points out the importance of precise terminology. He was talking about how "oscillations" may have been misinterpreted. Ckret goes so far as speculating that the crew never said oscillations but that the tty operator made it up as an interpretation. I mean there are lots of things that are speculations and interpretations, still. Ckret, Nov 2, 2008: "From putting everything together, the crew was referencing the cabin pressure gauge when the statement of “oscillation” was made. Not that they were feeling an oscillation in the aircraft. Remember; in another log created at the same time as the one reporting oscillations the word used was “fluctuations.” Because the crew always referenced the bump as a pressure change it would make since that prior to the large “Pressure Event,” there were small events leading up. Now go back and get you’re Cooper “on.” You are gingerly walking down the air stairs because you have never done this before. With each step you take caution, take a step and see what happens, take a step and see what happens. As you are doing this, the cabin pressure gauge in the cockpit starts to fluctuate. The engineer notices this and reports the anomaly to ops, these fluctuations continue for a few minutes as you figure things out. Once you’re set you jump and the stairs come back to the body of the plane, causing the pressure event known as “the bump.” It is noticeable but not dramatic, the needle instantly spikes, they notice the change in their ears, things calm quickly. Because the small fluctuations continue (the stairs are still open to about 15 degrees) nothing is reported they just assume this is a continuation of what they have already reported. But they do take note, “wonder if he just jumped?” As they wonder this they notice they are just north of the Portland suburbs. I think the individual typing the teletype was being fed info from the guy keeping the hand written log. When the guy keeping the handwritten log said, “they are reporting some type of fluctuations in the cabin pressure; they said the gauge is bouncing.” The teletype operator then typed “oscillations” his words not the crews. Amazing how small, even seeming harmless interpretations can cause large fluctuations or oscillations in history." Nah...

You're pretty funny georger. But not funny enough to get a free drink from Lenny at my bar. And no tab for you either! What's really funny is that you lampoon Jo. But you are Jo. Just another version. Read what I said again. Rat never said where Cooper "bailed" as you say. Now he might have and Ckret may not have told us something. There are writer accounts of Rat saying "mark that on your radar" when Cooper jumped or something like that. But apparently that's all rumor. But all we have from Ckret is Rat saying stuff about the pressure bump, right? The crew reported the oscillations which were then interpreted to be the jump time. They didn't report the bump but talked about it post interview. NOW we have Ckret willing/confident about saying the bump is the jump. I would note at this time that Ckret never got us copies of the film from the test drop. Oh well. But no one knows what's the jump. It's just different speculation, that could be right or wrong. For 37 years, the oscillation was the jump. For 1 year, the bump is the jump. You want to say Rat said "Cooper jumped". Rat didn't. All I'm pointing out, is that you connected the pressure bump and the jump, by saying Rat said Cooper bailed. I pointed out Rat didn't say that. Seems pretty clear to me. Since you want me to do work for you, I will. Ckret posted, speculating on resolving why the crew didn't report the bump, on Jun 10, 2008, 4:55 PM (part of a longer speculation by Ckret, snipped) "The crew had already reported the abnormal fluctuations so they believed this "bump" was just a continuation of what started at 8:11 PM. Because of this they don't report it. They do have conversation, however, Radazcak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when this occurred. He also said it occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 PM." and then this was followed by the one post in 6000 where Ckret agreed with a thought I posted: "I am positive Ratazcak was talking about Vancouver when he said, "we had not yet reached Portland proper but we were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity." Suburbs meaning Vancouver for the very reason you pointed out." You're not a scientist. It's not your fault. Does someone help you when you look thru the telescopes? Here's something to think about. Rataczak is quoted by Ckret as talking about the northern suburbs of Portland in the interview about the bump. But Ckret has no problem saying Rataczak was wrong about that, but right about the bump..i.e. selective discrimination. What if Rataczak was right about Portland. But no, you know what Rataczak said and what it meant. I'd ask you to kiss my ass, but I pay Bubbles $50 a pop for that already.

Since you've apparently talked to Himmelsbach going back to the '80s, you may have information that the current FBI agent on the case doesn't have. Do you know anything about where the radar was that was used to create the handdrawn flight path (the one with the x tick marks every minute) Our theory is that it came from the SAGE center at McChord. Did Himmelsbach ever talk much about the radar? What did Himmelsbach talk about anyhow? It seemed in newspaper articles he mostly talked about how Cooper was foul mouthed (Ckret says he wasn't) and how he would have impacted the ground at high rates of speed guaranteeing death/injury because of surface wind speeds that he quoted, which were wrong. Did Himmelsbach ever talk about whether the FBI investigated jumpers from the early '60s or where they got info about jumpers? My take is that Himmelsbach only followed up phoned-in tips. Is that wrong? Do you know anything about what he did? Basically, How did Himmelsbach investigate the case? The guys who wrote the McCoy book say he didn't really do much. Is that true or false?

That's great Jerry. (377 might laugh at this 'story' of how Ralph acquired one of the twenties. Reminds me of carpenters taking a couple 2x4's home from the job :) ) When was the earliest you saw any bills? Not as far back as 1980, I suppose? In the photos from 1980, you can't see any black bills. But now there are black bills. I've always wondered whether they turned color in FBI possession or before they were found.

I was musing about this theory Ckret first mentioned, that McCoy was an example of how a "real" jumper would do it. I just ran into something that makes me wonder if this notion of McCoy's skill level was myth. I read somewhere that he had only come off static line jumping in Fall of 1971. I don't know if that's true. McCoy hijacked April 7, 1972. I think it might be in The Real McCoy book. I'll know more when I get it. I don't know. It'll be interesting if McCoy's behavior was an example of how a novice jumper would do it.

yeah I can understand the computer thing. Obviously I touch type, and I can type pretty much as fast as speech, but I know it can be hard. I've seen some people go pretty good with just two fingers though. Since you've been musing about money. Have you seen the hi-resolution photos I posted of the Ingram auction bills? They're kind of mind-blowing. One of my acid tests for people who have opinions about "the money" and what it's condition implies, is to quiz them on what pictures of the money they've seen. It's only recently (the last year or so) that good photos of the money have arrived. So my opinion is that views formed prior to last year, about the money, should be revisited. Tom Kaye actually has the FBI money, but I'm working a scam with him to give counterfeits back to the FBI so we won't be able to get anything from Tom. Man, if Tom was a good guy, he would have scanned the FBI bills and posted hi-res photos here. I did the work to gather up the Ingram auction bills. How about some heavy lifting by the dream team for a change? Do we need to buy Tom Kay a scanner? I'll ship him one.

Georger, you say things so imprecisely. "Rat said Cooper bailed somewhere between 5-10 minutes after their last contact woith him at 8:05, and he could see the nothern suburbs of Portland coming up, and they had not crossed the Columbia yet" Rat did not say that. He said stuff like that with respect to when they felt a pressure bump. There is an assumption that what Rat was describing is when Cooper jumped. Yes there's some testing that says it's a reasonable assumption. But you stated something as "Rat said" that he didn't say. (edit) and couldn't have known. It is fact that no one knows when Cooper jumped. Are you a real scientist or ?? "I am weak, please don't hurt me" "Nice town. Think I'll take it"

Thanks. But: By who. What year. The FBI had no manpower for searching. Who told you this?

What's a computer simulation of the drop zone look like? Can you share it? I can understand if the answer is no. There are a lot of pilots and skydivers here. I'm sure you could get a good feedback on your simulation, in terms of accuracy.

I never understand this idea that information can be exchanged over the phone more efficiently. My experience is that the information is of poorer form on the phone, and since there typically isn't a transcript, it can't be reviewed, so people have memories of it being stronger information than it really is. Jo has this phone thing too. Never understood it. I always figured you only need a phone when you want to form a conspiracy of some sort. I'll say it again. Dougan Falls means 305 didn't go over PDX. 305 had to be within 6, maybe 8, at the most miles of where Cooper landed. If 305 went over there the radar is wrong. Yet the transcripts show PDX giving altimeter adjustment info to 305 in about the right place relative to the flight path/timeline. If 305 was in the wrong place at that time, why no mention of it by PDX ATC. If Himmelsbach has gone around saying 305 was somewhere other than where the radar says, he's saying the radar is wrong. If Himmelsbach is saying the radar is wrong that's interesting. Amazing amount of hearsay about what Himmelsbach has said. Does he really know anything? Ckret's posts seem to say there's not much more secret info. Why would we care what Himmelsbach thinks? Or some secret dam hydrologist of unknown name. But you're right georger, I feel better with some air. Dennis Hopper shared his oxygen mask. ....I'm humming "she wore bluueee....velvet..." Now I'm thinking "if georger did buy a snowblower, would he have sent in the warranty card in the mail? Could I track it that way?"

orange1 said: "But there are new angles being thrown up and I don't see why we shouldn't discuss them." agreed. I'm trying to discuss them but there's no information from the other side! Georger says just wait and give someone a chance. Like with the dream team, or the facial recognition or whatever the next bogus thought was. :) Hey Orange1, you argued for brutal feedback on intellectual proposals not too long ago. This is what it looks like!

Fosset. no radar. It was reasonable based on what they knew that they'd look in the wrong place. They were guessing. Cooper. Radar. Looking in the wrong place because the data is ignored and wrongly interpreted. Example: Was Government Island thoroughly searched? It is a little off, but a lot more on, than any other search area, based on the data. (looking for remote places..i.e. little human traffic, that link both the flight path and a money to Tena Bar story) I don't think it's worth searching Govt. Island now. But I think it's REALLY funny that somehow people want to believe that the data says it makes sense to search the woods, as opposed to shoreline. (edit) in case no one recognizes my new avatar :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0g1WUTuIQ8 Line them up, Lloyd! Everyone's here.

? I don't understand what you're saying Orange1. Have you looked at the roads around the Washougal River, say around Dougan Falls. I don't know if they were there in 1971, but you should look. It will surprise you. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dougan+falls,+wa&sll=45.639127,-122.273369&sspn=0.036006,0.069265&ie=UTF8&ll=45.671644,-122.155867&spn=0.035986,0.069265&z=14 Remember, if Jerry Thomas can get in to a spot, then most anyone can get out of that spot. This notion that Jerry Thomas has extra powers compared to the average man, doesn't seem true. If so, maybe we need more description? Can he walk 20 miles in a line in that area, without hitting a road, and not needing a compass? Not. (edit) In that google map, I suspect a lot are dirt roads? but the point is the same.

Thanks Sluggo. Sluggo Said: (can't you picture a chirpy game show announcer saying "Sluggo Said") :) Yeah, that's the description I was wondering where it came from. Ckret was careful to never confirm it, as far as I remember. If the McCoy book (by the FBI agents) actually has a copy of the Norjak memo that mentions it, it would be interesting. I just ordered a copy of the book last night. It was hard to find a cheap copy, because it's out of print? So I'll know in a week or so. I'll scan it if so.

This is just a tidbit that I hadn't noticed before. Calvin "Rawhide" Papritz was a smokejumper. He graduated from training at MSO (Missoula) in 1958. This is confirmed from the Smokejumpers book here: http://www.google.com/books?id=A6cEZ2Ay0P4C&pg=PA53&dq=calvin+papritz Beverly Buckner, and I guess others, did a series of oral interviews of smokejumpers circa 1984. This was for Univ. of Montana, in Missoula. I believe. A 10 minute tape, and transcript exists of the following interview described here with Papritz: (1984) http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/42574808?tab=details#tabs "Summary/Abstract Mr. Papritz tells of being asked by ABC News to recreate D.B. Cooper's jump from the back of a Boeing 727. He also suggests a possible identity for Cooper." I'll leave you guessing as to whether I have the tape :) (edit) apparently only 1 in a library worldwide? per: http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/42574808?page=frame&url=%2fidentities%2ffind%3furl_ver%3dZ39.88-2004%26rft_val_fmt%3dinfo%3aofi%2ffmt%3akev%3amtx%3aidentity%26rft.namelast%3dPapritz%26rft.namefirst%3dCalvin.%26rft.nameinit%3dC%26rft.nameinit1%3dC%26rft.nameinitm%3d%26rft.namesuffix%3d%26rft.nametitle%3d%26rft.date%3d%26rft.name%3d%26rft.birthdate%3d%26rft.deathdate%3d%26rft.arn%3d%26rft.title%3d%255BInterview%2bwith%2bformer%2bsmokejumper%2bCalvin%2b%2522Rawhide%2522%2bPapritz%2bon%2bre-enacting%2bD.B.%2bCooper%2527s%2bparachute%2bjump%2bfrom%2ba%2b727%255D%26rft_id%3dinfo%3aoclcnum%2f42574808&title=&linktype=identitiesLink (edit) I also saw a note that says in the book "The Real McCoy there's a copy of a Norjak memo, that says that the Cooper note was handwritten. Supposedly it's in an odd place in the book. Anyone have a copy of the book to confirm this? There have been some accounts of the note being handwritten, printed, felt pen, which I always thought was rumor, But if a Norjak memo said handwritten, that would be interesting.

was a post way back when Ckret kind of implied that georger and crew were some kind of team he could work with, unlike me. But as far as I can tell, everyone's a freaking whack job now. Sluggo is the closet whack job. He likes to hide his convoluted theories and say he's just about facts. Georger is odd in his own way. Tom Kaye has apparently gone off in the weeds. Jo, well Jo is Jo. Me, I go all over the place. Heck I was getting worried about even Orange1 losing it, but she seems to have kept her hand on the tiller/stick. 377 seems to be steady as always. Ckret committed suicide. Shelly and Jerry. Sure it's polite to reserve judgement, and it's nice to meet new folks (I lived in Beavorton for a short time...I've been on Mt. Hood a couple times) but really, regardless of where you guys live or who you talk to, so far there's no new info...my suspicions are you only have bad data. I love it. (edit) Hmm. Now that I think of it, maybe they filmed some of "The Shining" at Timberline for a reason!

I didn't realize Government Island is off limits to the public http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.575,-122.508&spn=0.1,0.1&t=m&q=45.575,-122.508 from wikipedia: "Government Island is a 1,760-acre (7 km2) island in the Columbia River north of Portland, Oregon in Multnomah County. Though Interstate 205 passes over it on the Glenn L. Jackson Memorial Bridge, access to the island is only by boat. (Although there is a city controlled locked gate in the 205 fence) Government Island is known for its great blue heron colony [1] and the Government Island State Recreation Area[2] (primitive camping, beaches). The interior of the island, off limits to the public, contains a seasonal cattle ranch and protected natural areas, including Jewit Lake. There are also remnants of old pioneer buildings on the island. Camping is permitted below the vegetation line around the perimeter, and picnic tables and restrooms can be found in these areas as well. Many threatened or endangered wildlife species live on the island, including red-legged frog, bald eagle, peregrine falcon, pileated woodpecker, little willow flycatcher, olive-sided flycatcher, western meadowlark, horned grebe, red-necked grebe, bufflehead, purple martin, and possibly the endangered Columbian white-tailed deer. .. The island (except for 224 acres (0.9 km2) on the east side owned by Metro) is owned by the Port of Portland. The Port acquired the entire island (as well as adjacent Lemon Island and McGuire Island) in 1969 in order to expand nearby Portland International Airport. Though those plans have been abandoned, it continues to control the land to prevent any uses incompatible with its location under the airport's primary flight path. In 1999 the Port sold a small parcel of the island to Metro, and leased the remainder to the Oregon Parks and Recreation Department for 99 years." I looked at this cause of one story on that site about finding a marijuana grow there: "When I was an early teens, my dad, best friend, his dad and I went camping on the north side of Government Island on the Columbia River. We were camped on the furthest north spot where the sand began. One day, we hiked into the middle of the island and found some open areas where cows were grazing. Upon further inspection we found a cabin. The area seemed pretty desolate of human activity other than the "greenhouse" that was the cabin. I was too young to know but as I got older my dad had told me it was full of marijuana. Fond memories..." Government island is where I-205 crosses the Columbia. Just East of I-5. I-205 (bridge) wasn't there in 1971. We've discussed Government Island before. I didn't realize it's still off limits in areas though. (sanctuary)

yeah, weird. at that site above (they're a lot of stories from OR/WA by the way) this guy found a prop: "a couple of years ago elk hunting in the chesnimnus unit I came across a prop to an airplane, I looked all around for the rest of the plane but didnt find anything, I would have packed it out but I was over 10 miles in and didn`t have the gumption to get er done, and yes I did tell the trooper on his dailey drive thru camp. I never did hear if anything ever came of it."

Hi Shelly. Why do you think that? Do you have a particular time you think Cooper jumped? And from where? Why don't you think Cooper landed near the Columbia, for instance? (edit) Are you aware, that it's very likely that Himmelsbach was wrong about the predicted jump time and area? Or if you believe he was correct, can you summarize why you think that?

people always find weird things in the woods. there are plenty of forums that have had very interesting stories. 12 pages of interesting stories here: http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=148441 one guy actually found an airplane wing flap in a plowed field. (edit) at that site, re golf ball stories "A friend has a habit of putting a golf ball in very remote places where it will be spotted by the next person who eventually comes along. He will put it on a stump at a trail intersection, or on a large rock outcropping that over looks a canyon.. stuff like that. WHAT A DRIVE !!!"

People here have no problem pointing out that Jo has wasted her life for 13 years, with her thoughts on Duane being Cooper. It seems just as obvious to me, that Jerry Thomas has wasted time (other than just enjoying being in the woods) tromping about in the woods where he's searching. Why is there all this support for Jerry Thomas' adventures, and none for Jo? They seem equivalent to me. What's different? Is there some secret info the A-list has? I think maybe Jerry has been led astray by bad info though, not because he's nuts. It would seem wrong to continue to support him, when it's obvious he has bad information. Who is that helping? Jerry? Himmelsbach? What I don't understand, is that Himmelsbach is a pilot. Is he a bad pilot? or have people attributed things to him that he didn't say. A pilot should have been able to say "No way" to a lot of this nonsense we're hearing about Flight 305 flight paths.

And Reno was set in place of Sacremento once they were in the air? Correct? no. It's good to review all this, because it seems inevitable that someone will point out that J5 and J65 go near Dougan Falls. (I'm not sure if J65 was there in '71? It goes near Mt St. Helens) In any case, Sluggo's timeline reminds us that the fueling discussion happened on the ground. I just looked at it, and was surprised to see that Cooper referenced Phoenix in the debate. After playing with the flight path software a lot, saying Phoenix is a little bit sophisticated in terms of knowledge. Maybe it just shows knowledge of cities in the Southwest etc. Hell, if he knows about Phoenix, why the hell are we all excited that he knows about Tacoma? from Sluggo: 18:25 PST Crew advised Cooper of range limitations. 18:25 PST Cooper indicated he will accept their word and asked if they could make Phoenix, AZ 18:59 to 19:41 PST Flt 305 was routed down V-23 by ATC based on terrain clearance at 10,000 feet. Flt 305 was informed that “there will be people with you all the way down, so if you go above 10,000 feet let us know.” [This is reference to chase planes.] 18:25 PST Flt-Ops MSP advises they are checking on Phoenix, says the flight might make it but it is questionable. Says range is about 2 hours. [ed. only 400 miles then? That would mean 2 fuel stops to get to Mexico...maybe 3 fuel stops? Have to check how far Reno was.] 19:22 PST Flt 305 confirms that based on the range limitations Reno will be their first stop for fuel Flt 305 was cleared down V-23 all the way to Sacramento, prior to takeoff. 19:22 PST Flt 305 advises that fuel truck has left, air stairs have been removed, forward door is closed, and Cooper has agreed to let them take off with the aft door fully closed. 19:22 PST Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. 19:25 PST Flt 305 says SEA GRND advises that the Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude to Reno is 15,000 feet. 19:25 PST Flt 305 suggest they go along the coast and then back on the route. 19:25 PST Flt 305 is positioning for take off. 19:33 PST Flt 305 takes off

Hi Sluggo SFO is only important if you're equally serious about 10,000 ft, as well as conserving fuel. If you're willing to go above 10,000 ft then there were even better options right off the bat? So what happened, is that a mixed plan got created (for Mexico) i.e. 10,000 ft most of the way to Reno, then they said "ah f** it" Do you agree there was no good 10,000 ft plan to Mexico once they said Reno? I think the weird thing, is that 10,000 ft wasn't treated as an absolute limit for getting to Mexico. If it was, then SFO/LAX would have made more sense, regardless of the increased fuel. We're talking about 1500 miles total roughly. So one fuel stop for a 727? (in that configuration) (two for my Piper) So if you have one fuel stop, it doesn't matter if you waste a little time going the coast route. You have the fuel, right? Or are you saying you can't make it from SFO to mexico in that configuration (727)? I have to look at that. I think your idea of "minimizing fuel burn" is wrong. You have to take into account "where to stop" and altitudes along the way and available Victor airways in 1971. You know that. You just haven't looked at that all the way to Mexico. It's a bit of a waste of time to analyze though, because the data makes it obvious Cooper didn't care about anything past Eugene, OR. (edit) Note one fuel stop is required for the 727 in that configuration no matter where you go? There is no non-stop possible? I guess I don't know. I'm going off of what they did that night.