VectorBoy

I tore the instep area where the leg wing and the boosters come together. This area isn't under tension when flying the suit so I haven't repaired it yet. One side tore on the second jump on the suit. Some people were examining it and laced up the booster heel strap, which I don't use and have since hot knifed off, I didn't notice it and when I went to put the bootie on in the aircraft it ripped. I ripped the second one trying to slip them on in a cramped helicopter without having enough slack in the leg material. Funny part was my partner was smart enough to put his boosters on before boarding the helo. I'm not sure if this is the same area you are referring to having to repeatedly repair on your M2.

But wingsuit flying, still, is considered a sort of weird thing. If we continue to behave in a way that we fit into DZ operations as well as RWers and freeflyers, then we maintain the longevity of our unique discipline. A lot of skysurfers never figured out how to fit in properly. So it went away. I always thought the decline of skysurfing was more as a result of the popularity of freeflying. No longer bound be gear and limited to to a second person on camera, you can bring two or more friends along all with cameras, and share the jump that way. But that could just be my perception. OK If you are skydiving in an unsafe or suspect manner , regardless of discipline and it is obvious to those around, then that sounds like an individual behavior or procedural problem. It is not a short coming of an entire discipline and all of its practitioners at every location. It should be dealt with on an individual level. I'm sure that wingsuiting will not be practical at every venue for a multitude of reasons and it should be curtailed at the local level based on events on a case by case level. The very jumpers wanting to do it should be the ones with the wisdom to stand down as they have the knowledge. Which wingsuiters are misbehaving? Now granted the wingsuit world off the dropzone is a perilous place and there have been instances resulting in fatalities. None of which were attributed to lack of flight skills but rather other choices by people who could absolutely maintain stable and safe flight otherwise. Back in the regulated jump world there has been one wingsuit related fatality due to lack of control during deployment. I couldn't say if this DZ considered or expressed banning wingsuits. I don't think the presence of a BMI in a ground training or flight instruction capacity would have changed the outcome one way or the other in this case. Chances are if someone jumps wingsuits at a given DZ and they have 50~200 safe wingsuit jumps, they are familiar with the local environment and pilot operating practices, then they should be a fairly good resource to mentor somebody who wants to get into wingsuits. Using past history as a guild, with a few comical but not too blatantly unsafe exceptions, this has worked wonderfully and represents the bulk of new birdies. Thats how it was in the beginning. It is much safer than just going alone IMO. I recommend this over learning it alone regardless of jump numbers as the manufacturers say is OK with more than 500 jumps. I'm not referring to just my personal situation I'm referring to Ohio, Colorado, Nebraska and Texas or where ever ( name your country). That is unless of course that your specific DZ or that DZs governing body has a problem with that and has rules above and beyond. Based on history with one exception all of wingsuiting's black eyes are as a result of decisions by competent pilots. They are not as a result of new jumpers failing to realize that this discipline is beyond them, which it is not, just about anybody can do this. Or as a result of new jumpers failing to control the suit during flight and deployment. Historically the availability of BMIs or a structure would not have changed a thing. That isn't to say that the BMIs don't serve a function. If they are entrusted by the coordinators of an event to provide the safe operating standards, conduct all of the first flight training, and distribute briefs and information related to safe wingsuiting at that event, then I am all for that. And I can't deny that they don't focus on safety and sport longevity. But we should all do that regardless of discipline ( and rating) and believe it or not most do.

Ok I will try to reply to all of this. Chuck as far as conspiracy goes, conspiracy is a bad word to describe what I'm talking about. Its just a different perception of the sentiment out there. That is all. The words of wingsuit bannishment is something I've only heard from the BMIs, never anywhere else. I was personnally at the bird-man booth the first morning. This is after I asked his ground staff about patterns they saw the instructor patch on my suit and said they would get back to me after asking Brian. When Brian came over to discuss flight patterns and I heard him say that the WFFC is no place for specialty jumping. Never heard him say banning wingsuits. Granted I never sat in on airspace meetings every morning. As far as the incident in arizona Brian figured out who it was and talked to him. It was a pretty simple discussion and that jumper never heard the word banning. This is the same Brian that if he sees you do something dumb under canopy in his pattern ,you will absolutely get an earful about it. Even when we had the otter strike, by a first gen BMI no less, no body ever talked about banning it here and it would have been easy as there were less than a handful of suits here at the time. Those were some tense moments for the DZ, the pilot of the struck aircraft, the chief pilot in the chase plane. The DZ manager at the time, who had had it up to his eye balls with accidents and incidents of other types and wasn't going to put up with anything high risk, never mentioned banning wingsuits or even canceling the first wingsuit boogie and visit from bird-man that was to come in a few months. The pilot of the struck aircraft didn't want to run wingsuits off the property he wasn't even angry. In fact he found a new appreciation for them ( I find this true for a lot of pilots). He was a non current jumper from the old days that thought of recurrency just to jump one. In his words they were pretty awesome and he wanted to try one. The chief pilot, who was in the chase plane, has gone on to become a wingsuit jumper.. Its something he and his wife do. Now mine was an open question to non BMIs about banning or any negative feedback. Other than the BMI response, I've heard none but I'm still waiting. I wasn't around during the early days of freeflying so I can't tell you what trials they had to go through, real or perceived. I'm positive that freefly grudge is and always was non existant at some dropzones and I'm sure there are some DZs that still just can't figure it out. In most cases its probably a jump culture and not a DZO safety issue. And I reply to Steve's statement with: Skysurfing, what? explain? I wasn't around then either. I'm just around now and have never heard anything about banning wingsuits. Skysurfing, as far as I know, is not banned, come to think of it neither is HP canopy flight. Which BTW is a very dangerous, highly emotional, charged subject of many actual fatalities. Way more than the wingsuit dilemma. The sky is still not falling.

Well I can tell you from first hand experience I have heard those very words said to me at Last years Rantoul and at Eloy, two of the countries biggest events/locations where skydiving is done and I could give you a few more smaller places as well. My reply----> So Scott you are now the third person who has mentioned it. It's still a BMI exclusive statement. Is there anybody else out there who feels this way outside of the structure..... DZOs, S&TAs, Pilots, Loaders, AFF & tandem Instructors.. bartenders.. lurking this forum. Who feel that wingsuits are dangerous, a menace waiting to be unleashed and should be banished from the dropzone. We want to hear from you, represent your thoughts and emotions. Be heard. Our operators are standing by. Now to be fair I did hear Brain B who is a safety cautious S&TA at both WFFC and of course ELOY Say and I quote " I don't think that high traffic events should be a place for specialty jumping. Ie: tandems AFF and birdman". This was in regard to the WFFC madness which there is enough of between the various aircraft operators. I will Guarantee they will NEVER ban tandems and AFF at the WFFC, and I bet they could care even less about bird-manning it there. There was some confusion at the Eloy holiday boogie in regards to wingsuits, also a high traffic event, I imagine the same S&TA was in volved. BUT Brian never mentioned banning wingsuits there ( doubt the thought of even curtailing them during the boogie even entered his mind ). But again it was the BMIs who were pretty quik to mention banning wingsuits on this here forum. Carefull what you mention ladies and gentlemen, you may just get your wish. The sky is falling chicken littles. We will just keep operating same as always from first flights to flocks, above board, safe and sane, groovy and styley. Keeping everyone happy. Never drawing that hatefull eye. Maintaining everbodys trust. All without having to threaten someone with spending a "night in the box".

Btw, for those who have seen the dvd, that black dude with the funky guitar....he's no local!!! Cheers. But he is still a rock star.

I can see you have some sort of problem with the BMI's , BMI rating and it's costs for the BMCI to train new BMI's, since skydiving is mainly what they do for a living and dont do it for free. Should USPA require documentation of wingsuit pilots having training from some sort of Instructor they have implemented into the BSR's in the future, I hope yours is signed off for free.

No Ed I jump maybe 50% at Perris, some at San Diego, and Elsinore. Really the only place that is strict enough to require special wingsuit flight area that I know of is Perris.Oh, and Rantoul but that was after I asked. Perris regularly has organized "mass tracking jumps", have CreW work and are in the middle of aircraft traffic areas. Now with the added range of wingsuits they decided to keep everyone separated. Most of the other dropzones don't have an issue over this. But most of the Pilots at other dropzones are very helpful with special jump run needs whether its a short run for wingsuit students or a very long run with a 90 degree turn for some far and fast flocking. San Diego is great in this regard, and so is Perris traffic permitting. Others don't care, just get out on the green and don't hit anything. The flight ops issue really is a local one. Based on traffic and circumstances. It should be crafted by the pilots, DZOs and the local flockers based on what works for them. Not from some wizard from the structure. I've heard a few complaints about that one. >Though he gives the course for FREE it's better he has >taught from a structured program and has a rating. >Whether you ever get a wingsuit rating on the type of >wingsuit you jump is your choice. >All I am saying is it better for the wingsuit community >to have a structure program for teaching safety in the >particular suit they are going to jump (such as a BM, >MTR2 or S-Fly rating), the correct flight patterns and a >documented log of the the training recieved, and >from whom, because eventually it will be required. >All I am saying is, lets avoid possible accidents or >fatalities, by teaching a structured program for the >safety of flying wingsuits, and that may mean getting >a MT2 or a BMI rating of some sort. >But lets make the rules and guideline before >someone else does that has never flown a wingsuit. The world keeps making a reference to the structured program that without it we are lost. That without a BMI you are only getting half of the valuable training. That you are taking a great risk with shoddy instruction. I'm gonna debunk that theory. We were doing all of that traffic separation stuff before the structure. We were flying wingsuits solo and in big flocks safely before the structure. Conducting first flight courses safely before the structure. Doing many more WS jumps before some of those that are now in the structure became part of the structure that was yet to be. Not at just one dropzone but several in the region. The guys I jump with have had, or have, several wingsuits of various makes. Not just one or in the case of one BMI, none. How current is the individual that has to borrow gear to fly? Borrow two to just to teach? If you come to us you get a choice of brands and some cases colors ( tiny sizes the exception). You will be as safe as with any BMI . Chances are if you know a person who has a few wingsuit ( any brand) jumps at a DZ near you. That person would be a good resource for wingsuit guidance. There is an instructor checklist on the BM homepage to assist. The other brands of suits have very nice flight manuals also. Nobody, BMI or not, is gonna swoop down and save you life if you are in trouble. Wingsuit flight is a world of self reliance and self responsibility. I'm assuming that this hypothetical mentor person isn't reckless and crazy as I assume most of the BMIs are also not, even though real life data says there are exceptions in every bunch. And that the BMCIs have admitted once someone gets a rating and moves on its very hard for them to control what that individual does or says, which could reflect bad on BMIs as group. And those persons out side of the structure have nobody to answer to either. But if you are that bad no body will flock with you period. >I'll be at the DZ on Friday about noon and all day >Sunday, I'll have my wingsuit too if you'd like to do >some flocking jumps? Not staying for the X-fest?

Use the toys from the square one catalog that have a small chute. There is three men toys and one skygirl one. Redecorate the figurines if needed, crazy glue em together and whamo. Don't spend tons on it that could be spent in cancun instead, skydivers have great imagination.

Ed never have I heard talk of banning wingsuit flight except from these forums and from BMIs, you would be the second BMI who has stated it. Where did you hear it from? Is there a problem out there? There may be some form of mandatory training and documentation by the uspa if there is a need and example would be if there are a bunch of incidents and accidents. So far the wingsuit world ,as small as it, is has been fairly well behaved on the DZs. The sky is not falling. When I refer to not being able to get a BMI for training or an event I'm not referring to what happened in texas recently. I'm talking about boogies and other occurances, where not just wingsuits are featured, the other load organizers are there. Some other manufactures are there with their canopy demo team but its still hard to get BMIs there, even though there are BMIs are in the region and may work at the various DZs in other capacities. The BMIs are too small in number to be everywhere I know this. Some BMIs are just busy with other things. Some, I imagine, only got the rating as a token to pad the resume or to entice sponsorship not to actually train anybody. But here is a kicker when the BMI is on the very dropzone where you are training at for a few weeks or a month and you still can't get training from them. I'm not talking about a single event either. This is where those pesky rebellious mentors do the vast majority of the first flight courses by a very large margin. If you ask the students how they feel about the mentors getting them in the air. I'm pretty sure they'd be grateful, maybe they would even use the word hero. In most cases they didn't charge a dime and have no stake in how or why the aircraft turns. But if I could half fill a load because I personally turned some people onto wingsuits and they have gone on to get their own suits and wanna flock, then its my party time. It really doesn't matter what I think about the BMI program. It does matter what the community and potential students think about the BMIs. They are the customer, they have questions about their safety and their skills. The BMIs need to be available to train. If the BMI is coaching or load organizing they better provide as promised as most likely the customer has paid money for this. The truth of it is that if I worked even part time on the DZ as an AFF intructor, TM or coach I would probably get the BMI rating and drop the renegade status. But I have a job and I'm only on the dropzone to play. If someone comes up to me and says they just can't get into the air in a wingsuit ( and I will have verified they have tried ) with an available BMI through the recommended structured program. Then yeah you bet we will put them in the air! And I tell you what... it isn't going to suck!

Eric it may have been before either of those although the first one does have "the" quote towards the end of the history page.

Of course. I don't take these message board things seriously. Pay no attention to what "tone" comes across online. "Still wanna flock"? is a question for the potential wingsuit neophyte, I know you wanna. Still wanna learn to fly wingsuits if there is nobody there to save you from yourself, cuz even if there is someone there they can't grab, correct and save you if you get into trouble. What an instructor or mentor can do is give you a full briefing on equiptment, what to expect, the flight pattern. Provide hand signals, corral you, get video, answer questions, debrief, try to put you at ease, try to remind you to relax ( very important ), make it look easy. No wait it is easy, it is easier than you think. It is very natural despite having your arms and legs bundled up. Easy, natural and safer than it was in the beginning that is for sure. Robert P And Jari have fullfilled their original dream of bringing wingsuit flight to the average skydiver not just extreme stuntmasters, I still remember the original website.

I know what you meant Steve. As skydivers we are taught to pull stable. During AFF ( or whatever training method used ) there is an instructors hand there to keep you stable. In wingsuit flight you really need to pull stable. Thats on your first flight and everyone after that for ever! And there willnever be a hand there to keep you that way during deployment, ever. Still wanna flock?

Doesn't JP have Matter's answer to the BMI rating? Pm him for his answer to the Matter BMI rating.

Improper pull technique doesn't guarantee an incident on the first jump. In this case, it took four jumps. Proper instruction from the start could have made a big difference. Yes properly rated AFF instructors never have a student use an "improper" pull technique. Never happens, only with the nonrated AFF instructors.. Do you really believe what you wrote? You are stretching it Steve, but we still love ya!

Matter instructor rating? News to me! In fact last I heard the guy that was going to draft it bailed on Matter and really wants nothing to do with the company. Funny I keep running into people that show me their new M2 that they just ordered off the website, read the manual and whoopi off they went. I bet you could get an S-fly the same way as long as you didn't live in a country that had rules by the governing body above and beyond the manufactures recommendation that pertain to WS flight. Of course these matter instructors could be hiding with that 50 jump wonder that regularly jumps a velocity, from the safety and training forum, that I have still to meet up with. And finally, do you have to be rated to get some cake?

By stopping the accidents BEFORE THEY HAPPEN from the lack of a "structured" Instructional Program. Ed Wingsuits are safe ( I say relatively safe ) as far as I know I only seem to remember one fatality, on one of the modern production wingsuits during deployment, with an elliptical canopy,on what would have been a first flight. Don't get this statement wrong I'm not talking about the historic bird-men and their prototype suits. I'm not talking about Patrick and his rigging error on his custom suits. He could do amazing things with his suit. I'm not talking about fixed object strikes in the back country or off the DZ and there are many of those. What I'm talking about is the inability to fly and deploy safely in a modern production wingsuit, regardless of how structured the instruction was or if there was any at all, period. I do hear talk of some DZ banning wingsuiting..... not in the real world just on this forum and just from BMIs. Which makes me wonder if a certain amount of protectionism scare tactics aren't in play rather than real world discussions about real world problems. If all of the other "non instructor rated " manufacturers felt that their product was so complex that it needed something along the lines of a tandem master rating they would have one. Not doing so would be negligent. But they must feel their product is safe enough and easy to use without it. If all of the dropzones felt that the only way to get a first flight course would be through some kind of structured program they would probably manage it just like their other programs Tandems,AFF, coaching. Manage it themselves or, at the very least, not allow "non rated rebels" to conduct a FFC. I don't for one second believe that they would let anybody not rated use specific tandem gear without that rating. And these same DZs wouldn't entertain the promotion of non rated wingsuit load organizers and instructors if all manufactures required it or if wingsuit flight proved so complex that such a rating was needed to instruct in wingsuits. This is exactly the case when an event is coming up and there isn't a BMI to be found for miles. The non rated wingsuit pilot with a handful of spare suits is welcomed with open arms and made a hero for their efforts to help some people get a first jump. The dropzone owners who really have the bulk of the liability and shoulder the burden of accidents would just not allow it if it could not be conducted safely. The fact of the matter is that the Instructors out there are a wonderful resource for learning and advancement of flight skills. There are some non rated WS pilots out there with skills an knowledge to share. In some regions they are more skilled and knowledgeable than most BMIs who would be scarce if at all available. Out in the field ( and in these forums) there are the potential first flight student who wouldn't dream of a FFC without a rated BMI and will happily wait for one to come along. Then there are those out there that think the whole BMI thing is a scam to get more money out of a jumper. Ask youself what have you done to put this rumor to bed or if you have helped perpetuate it. Then there are those that don't care all they want is their jump on the nylon crack.

And I seriously doubt there ever will be for those manufacturers, just my opinion. Now I do believe that the various governing bodies may inact some kind of instructor rating system if the need arrises, lets say as a result of too many inccidents. But as it stands right now some people with enough jump numbers and experience just buy one, read the manual and fly one. Others with questions and the desire for help , regardless of experience, seek that help out.

If anyone is really wanting to see wingsuit flying grow bigger in the sport, we need to set the guidelines for safety and become more involved in what the wingsuit makers are setting for basic guidelines, rather than trying to be "Rebels". (i.e. "I'm not going to pay for that rating when I know I'm good enough, and I can teach anyone even if I dont have the stupid rating") Ed What do you recommend those that operate and mentor in other than the bird-man brand suits do in this case Ed?

I am starting to think about it more. I do not zip legs until 10k and arms until about 12k. If I exited the plane with everything unzipped and just dumped, what would be the worst case scenario? Suit flapping causing instability? Canopy entanglement with flapping suit? Quote Because some aircraft are cramped and some suits more confining you may have to be zipped up before boarding . Generally I leave my arm zippers till last so I can fuss with other gear. But I like to have my legs zipped up as early as possible or even before if the aircraft is gonna be cramped to move and adjust later. If there is an emergency your leg wings will act as a nice set of power tracking pants. If you don't have the time to track and must pull silver then it doesn't matter, without an LQRS you will be landing a reserve legs zipped. Due to the fact that WS get out last you may not have time if the AC is low and may have to ride it down.

I don't remember how I exactly worded it but the intent was "If I have close to 200 jumps but not quite 200, can I jump a wingsuit?" Kris. Some BMI's have and I have on rare occasion taken people up in the 180 # range. I can't speak for the BMI's but In my case the guy had his own suit ( borrowed ) already manifested and was just waiting for the load, when I caught up with him and asked if he wanted to flock. He said sure but this was his to be his first flight and didn't know how well he would do. We did a mini first jump course in a few minutes and kept talking all the way to exit. He did fine and the flight was one of the better first flights I've been on. I would do the same again for someone similar with known skills without hesitation but at 100 jumps that is pushing it , pushing it hard. For the most part when people approach us about first flight courses they have on average over five hundred jumps. They don't need a BMI but we can answer all of their questions lickity split and give them feedback for improved follow up flights. If they can spend the day flocking with us their initial skills improve quickly,they get the picture, and the are not struggling along solo in a vacuum. One guy approached us a few months ago for a FFC at about 190 jumps. He was focused on another discipline and decided to wait. Here we are less than six months later he has over 500 and is ready to really focus on wingsuits. This was the better choice IMO.

QuoteNice Steve!!!!!!! I would assume your now back from your trip. Love your new rig

I have washed all of my bird man suits in a machine in gentle cycle, works great. I have washed my Matter this way once and won't do it again. I don't think the stitching liked it. No damage but the stitching doesn't look right. Next time I will just soak it in a tub. I don't believe that it needs a bunch of agitation as its ZP is not as porous as the kind BM uses in fact in most cases it can just be wiped clean as it is slick material.

No we have these big guys in suits guarding all doors into the building. Thats going to get expensive. Normally they just fire the supervisor.

You nailed the head position situation. This applies for both WS and tracking ( anytime you want to cover distance ). Performance drops off if you got a bulky camera helmet too, this is drag, drag is bad for flight. Protracs just measure pressure, time and temp. Don't expect much from tiny electrical devices except for a few beeps right around pull time. This is my personal philosophy on most electronic gadgets unless they have been deemed to provide accurate position information in meteorolgical conditions by a high power. If they have been deemed they, were probably stolen out of the dash of an aircraft and are probably the size of a toaster which will fit nicely on a big camera helmet spoiling your laminar airflow. As far as the four minutes in the sugar glider I couldn't say, but I know a guy who got 3 minutes and change in an S-3. I got my eyes on that boy... do what he do.. fly like he fly...Got a lot of video of that boy... flying for another ten second after I'm under my main But I will never have his hollow bones.

Nice, BabbaLou! Some people have been waiting over a year to see some of that footage. I'm glad you uploaded it. Keep up the good word.