VectorBoy

Chuck, how did you handle all that "be very quite" time?

Relax Scott, I got no issues with the course, the cost or location. I know if I want it I have to go to it. If I wanted it that bad I would have had it already. ( although I don't think it wants me anymore. I know big names only come to your event after you front them money. Thats why some big names no longer compete and just do promotions and events. I know the score. My issue is a little less heat on the closet mentors. Thats all. Only a handful of BMIs complain about us and I am not complaining about all of the BMIs. And this is just my opinion. You never know I could be crazy. BTW who is todd? Glen

Glen, you're a friend, but you are telling a fib now. Quote I have refered you both on this forum and to potential flyers in person. Its no lie,ask em. And I don't blame you. If I worked in the industry I would go after the higher volume business. That is a no brainer. Sorry you feel that I'm taking away your wingsuit business. Its hard to believe that it is even possible since I'm only on that drop zone a couple days a month and the rest at some of the other dropzones in the area. Some of the politics just come as result of the closet/mentors having to justify why all of the time. They/we are made to look like hacks that don't care about safety or that haven't a clue what we are doing. I definately don't mean to splatter any negativity around. I don't think there is a culprit in this story. Its all good.

That will put lobbyists out of work.

I know Kirk, It does look that way sometimes and it does get old. If you have been following along its not just me, though. And you got to realize I'm on the side of the BMI on a lot of subjects. Just not all of them all of the time.

Glen was sitting right there at Eloy last year (or was it two years ago) when we ran the BMI course during the holiday boogie. His excuse for not attending? "Well, Bill is on the DZ more than I am so what's the point?" By posting all of these "anti establishment" threads, he has clearly demonstrated to me that he missed the boat and should have attended the damn class! You are my boy, Glen, but this shit is out of control. I told you then that I thought it was a mistake that you did not attend. Chuck Blue D-12501 AFF/TM/SL-I, BMCI, PRO It was not a mistake that I didn't attend the class Chuck. It was a miracle that I was even able to attend the boogie for the two and a half days that I did. I believe the class is worth it, I've stated it publicly and on these forums, I just at the time didn't have the$300. The cost is fair. Not having the cash is fair. It was more than I spent on the boogie, lodging, food and drinks and jumps. We all have to eat ramen sometimes. I also thought there wouldn't be a shortage in available accessable instuction. Believe me, and I've stated this before, If a BMI set up shop down here proper I would refer every customer to them. We would be able to concentrate on technical more creative stuff and drop the renegade status. I would be a happy guy. Also if I did spend more time on the DZ as an instructor or staff member I would have the rating. True then true now. I'm glad I'm still your boy. We both know I'm out of control. I'm not as anti establishment as you think. Glen

Sounds like a flame, feels like a flame, But I'm very grateful for your reply, honest! And we both know I deserve it. Although I do stand behind what I say. It was a good juicy discussion. What we need. But I'm very curious to see whats the vast majority opinion even other governing bodies ideas. Do you still love me?

Hey Phree compare the two for us. What category do they fit into? High performance, speed, dives, fast turns or general purpose, soft opening moderate elliptical with nice glide and flare. Which of the two would be labelled more for the aggressive pilot and which would you put someone with 200-400 jumps on?

Snaps are another issue you can have on the suits particularly on the GTI and the Classic. The S3 comes with reinforced snaps for the leg wing keepers only. The hook knife pocket snaps are not. Getting these reinforced as soon as you get the suit will save you grief later on. Kris. My rigger puts acouple of layers of webbing behind the snap when its installed ( or re installed after repairs ). One it reinforces them and two they tend to sit flat against the body for easy snapping without having to look at it .

Phree I've got an unused white S3 zipper you can have for free, PM me if you want it bro. I've put the rings on as pulls. I got them at the hardware store for a nickle a piece. They come in many sizes. never a problem with actual zippers

I realize that the ultimate agenda here is render the BMI title ineffective. However, it's following a model that's proven itself in skydiving. No My agenda is not to try and diminish what the BMI title represents. I really want the thoughts of others that do it and have been there. Bonus if they are from other countries with less liberal governing bodies. One of the reasons I bring up the question of accessabilty to a first jump course and of accessability to the BMI course is that there are people out there that are unsatisfied with the status of getting into a wingsuit as documented in posts in these forums. There are also BMIs that are unsatisfied with non BMIs helping others do that. The mentors, caught in filling in the middle, take it in the shorts when they are just trying to help people fly and also promote a product. Even though they may have a very safe and structured course, just one that is not recognized officially thats all. BYW thats how it all started. The first wingsuit instructors were really just birds that had their suits a season before some of the others thats all. It was all official back then and no tragic outcome came of it. There are complaints that some mentors are out there mentoring without ever being evaluated and recognized to do so. I counter with the fact ( correct me if I'm wrong ) that not all on the official list have ever been evaled either. I'm not talking about some old timers. The thing with the concrete barrel looks really hairy I wouldn't do that with a thousand jumps. Although the guy has, for what its worth, complete control over the loaded tandem rig from exit to landing. I see this as being a whole lot more demanding than just being a BMI or mentor and training someone to fly wingsuits. Of course maybe its real easy and I should learn to huck myself and some heavy baggage.

I can't identify the fliers but the helmets and jumpsuits were custom made for last years X-fest. I think the helmets may be gaths. BTW this years X-fest starts in T-minus...........

Thats nothing, ask him what he wears on night jumps.

Do you think they would be crazy enough to divert attention from higher volume production of just suits to enter the world of lower volume, labor intensive, niche discipline products? I believe that those people that today are involved in the production of wingsuits are passionate about it!..... on a crazy level. Or they are just crazy.

Sorry if I tend to sound defensive at the establishment sometimes. I don't do tandems so my perception of the TM rating is as an outsider. I've heard from TMs that it is the most dangerous form of skydiving. They make jokes about four limbs, four handles and a pilot chute in tow. And like you said it is a gear specific rating by the manufacturer you cannot bypass getting to use the equiptment. I don't doubt for a second that if someone is performing the task of tandem master then they have gone and got the rating for the specific rig in question and there was no way to bypass the process. Just like I doubt that I can call up Jay Stokes to get an AFF rating or Sandy Reid to get a riggers rating without paying my dues to include attending the course and being evaluated on the skills those rating require. I find there are three types of background for those people that we call BMIs. 1 The people that have been either with the company ( bird-man)or in another company (canopy-container-base gear) with a close working relationship with bird-man and Jari and were doing first jump courses and product promotion from the early days. A long standing history. 2 Individuals that have attended and been evaluated, in person, in the BMI course, conducted by any of the BMCIs . 3 Other individuals that have only called or requested via Email to be placed on the list without any evaluation of skills whatsoever. Being in the last category doesn't make any guarantee as to that applicants suitability to conduct anything on behalf of bird-man in regards to wingsuits other than promotion and sales. The only thing it does prove is the applicant is an effective telemarketer. Trust me I know the process has to justify nothing to me but if we are going to throw around the words of liability, I'm sure legal consul would see things differently. My grief does manifest itself when some demean the skills and processes of others ( lets say outside the establishment) when the comments come from someone who has themselves never been evaluated by the establishment. Do you see the hypocrisy? To add to the confusion other manufacturers do things differently. I do believe that the manufacturer has a right and the final say in how their gear should be trained on. If a rating is required it should be a standard process. I'm curious to know what other people think. From all countries and governing bodies and that have the familiarity with wingsuits. What should be required? My thoughts on the matter were that nothing is broken, things are going smooth IMO, the governing body doesn't have to step in and regulate. Mine, the USPA, is all about self regulation until prompted to enact more of it as a result of an immediate need in the field. For the life of me I can not predict how the uspa will embrace wingsuiting real needs. Based on your comments I do see a closer parallel between wingsuits and tandem gear where before I saw very little similarity and my opinion was fixed against it. Now I'm torn.

What do you think about it? Is it adequate? Is it accessible? Is it keeping up with the real world needs of the skydiving community? Is it safe? This goes for both the cottage industry off-shoot of the manufacturers and the old school mentorship style. How much should the manufacturer be involved or should they just stick with R&D, fabrication, product support and refinement and distribution? Is there a problem now that requires the higher powers to step in and certify training to levels similar to AFF, tandem and coach ratings. This would, by regulation, standardize the content of cottage industry program and eliminate the ability to mentor. As it stands now for the commercially available wingsuits. One manufacturer recommends a minimum of 500 jumps or a very current 200 jumps with the use of an approved training sub contractor. They provide the list of the contractors. A second company recommends a minimum of 500 jumps period, and leaves it at that. A third recommends training, provides the contact for three facilities that provide it and makes no mention of jump numbers in any way. (I gathered the above info via their respective web pages and it may be incorrect. Feel free to correct me on it. ) What needs changing? If at all. Glen

Ed, dude you spun my tread. No my thoughts on wingsuit training have nothing to do with the question. Who cares what I think about wingsuit training guidelines? That s a different tread. This one is about banning and curtailment of wingsuit activities. Something everybody in a wingsuit should be concerned about. We hear about. The thought makes some of us mad and it confuses others. Since it is confusing we have broken it down further so we can understand it when it comes up in conversation.

Thanks JP, a brilliant response and this would cover the other facets of curtailment / banning. And yeah buddy you are following me. In the case of someone , an individual, behaving dangerously for lack of skill or ignorance to the procedures or with disregard for the known procedures for that DZ or discipline ( any discipline ). Then that person should be dealt with as an individual and the situation should be addressed. I don't believe that this is a wingsuit exclusive sentiment. The second one could be a gray area if lets say someone with low jump numbers gets a wingsuit on there own ( or HP canopy or Base gear) and is going to just go it alone ( as many people did and I don't recommend ) making sure they are prepared as best they can be or at the very least making sure they are aware of some key issues as it can effect the safety of others on the dropzone. And I'm not talking about someone with fifty jumps who scored an S3 off the internet, which is extreme and for the most part doesn't happen. I'm talking about someone who is more inline with what is practical. If I blow the whistle on someone chances are they will just go and jump a wingsuit somehow and somewhere without help anyway. But just like the first example it is also an individual situation and should be dealt on a personal level, not directed at a discipline. The third example is a good one as it can be confused as a full no exception ban. But in cases like this it is a smart maneuver, I agree with it, and I believe that in other instances when some one mentions banning this is instead what they are really talking about.......event curtailment. The shameful part is that decision should be a personal one, first, by the wise wingsuiters with experience to stand down, along with the DZ policy for safe work load reasons during those times. I know flockers that absolutely will not engage in wingsuit flight during high volume events. I know of no body I flock with even trying it during the nationals. The same people avoid big boogies and major weekends for the same reason. personal safety. Its wise and should be excepted. I believe that WFFC and Eloy holiday 03 fall under this representation and not example #4. In the fourth example ( the perfect example ) you mention an owner or manager just not wanting it around for whatever personal reason. I would consider this under the category of "all out ban" and an example of what some people are referring to. And yes it is there business to be run the way they see fit, I agree with the right of any business owner to have the last say on how his/her business is conducted. This is the perfect example, question is have you ever heard of this? Anywhere? I'm mean in regards to wingsuits? If not the actual policy.... the desire for the actual policy? The talk of it by people in charge at that location? And on the flipside do you know of anyone who wingsuits on a dropzone that is creating that sentiment which in the end could make an owner or manager put such a policy in place?

I would like to know the true factual form of their policy, if any. This is a shinning example of what I'm asking about. If the dropzone in question would prefere that wingsuits not be jumped there out of respect or in mememory of a lost loved one. Whether if it has manifested itself not just as unspoken request but as a hard and fast rule by the owners and managers. I'm curious to know the feelings of the locals there as it relates to this subject .

Ever hear of it? Besides the two overly documented cases, Rantoul and Eloy holiday 03? This was one topic imbeded in a previous and long tread with many other topics. Its brought up quite a bit. Just like the statement " flys big" it can be confusing to some and aggravating to others. I'm sure some people will think this is overdone. I think it merits disscusing just based on the topic and without spin. Post your experiences. If you ever experienced any negativity in regards to wingsuits or as a result of someone else with a wingsuit.

You can barely see the unattached strap flaping on kevins left ankle in the pic on the review of the matter2 page at flybirdman.com.

It is a velcro strap that goes from the outside of the bootie then across the heel through a plastic buckle and back onto itself with velcro. It is designed to help tension the leg wing. although its not really needed for tensioning. It doesn't fit everybody ankle so some people just tuck in up inside the suit unbuckled. I knifed mine off so some else will have to post the pics if you still want them.

Hell Glen, I think you may be gettin' it!

I always loved the fort sam girls. When the got a bad rap over there they just came across the highway to us.

QuoteIt's really bad in there. Don't go in there. I feel all upset now like I've been in some sort of altercation... and I didn't even post. Quote I have never been in there and I'm proud. besides I get in enough trouble out here I don't need to go in there.