Marisan

The more relevant question billvon is: what are YOU doing? Oh sorry I've already answered that!

It's all been talked about ad nauseam. He is not doing anything new. It's just a waste of time. I'm just suggesting that he take action of some kind instead of talking about it if he really is that bothered by the status quo. For about the 5th time! I don't jump anymore. I have no intention of jumping anymore I don't have the knowledge or authority to do something about it. I don't even live in your country. You, however DO jump. You have the knowledge and authority. I handed off safety in this sport to you guys when I gave up. And what the fuck have you guys done with the responsibility that I and all of the other old farts passed down to you? I'll tell you what you've done. Sweet Fuck All! You either: 1/ Deny there is a problem. 2/ Say it doesn't apply to me. 3/ Say you can't do anything about it. Well there is a problem, it does apply to you and you fucking well CAN do something about it. There has been thread after thread on this subject and I'm sure there will be many more. It will continue until YOU guys man up and sort out the problem. Only YOU can do it! Now go and talk to that guy with the " Mad Skillz" and tell him that he actually isn't that skilled. (Refer him to the incident thread if he doubts you) Point out what the body of someone that bounces looks like and that you REALLY REALLY DON'T want to see that again! If that doesn't work talk to the DZ Safety people. (Point out the amount of paperwork that they, and the DZO, will have to do when the inevitable happens.) As a last resort, refuse to jump with the fuckwit. See how long he likes paying for a turbine to altitude all by himself. The solution is in YOUR hands. So do something about it unless you consider the Incident Thread as Bounce Porn.

Hi Billvon, And what is the final conclusion when someone hooks in and kills himself. That he was an idiot and deserved it so we don't have to do or learn anything? Looking at the figures in the "Canopy with the most Fatalities" thread it seems we have our own forktailed doctor killers

If you have a few hrs of 172 time and hit the lotto, you can go buy a Pitts. Obviously it isn't the manufacturer that pays for your aerobatic training....YOU DO, because you want to play in the hi-performance playground-you do what it takes to survive there. That's common sense and a pretty basic element of 'safety culture'. ~THAT's what 'we' are missing... . In the general aviation community that " Safety Culture" is what stops people buying a Pitts Special and flying it without the necessary training. It is possible for the new Pitts owner to sneak out to the airfield and fly his new Pitts Special without the rating. 5 minutes later he is (To steal Aggie Dave's sig line) "Dead surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." What happens then? A major investigation eventuates, lessons are learned, regulations are overhauled and (maybe) sanctions are applied. This happens even with injuries. Because Jumping is so small a facet of general aviation the FAA has allowed you to be self regulating. This means You have to conduct the major investigation ,learn the lessons, overhaul the regulations and apply sanctions if necessary. Even with injuries. Then you have to collate the statistics to see if a new trend is occurring. Right now you have no statistics on injuries and death. There is a major gut feel, however, that something is seriously wrong. I know jumpers are rebels and hate rules. Hell that's one of the reasons I started jumping. One of the things that has come very strongly from this thread is that training must be adequate and COMPULSORY! The manufacturers MUST provide a Pilot's Operational Handbook with each canopy just as general aviation manufacturers must provide one with each aircraft they sell. This handbook MUST tell of any potential nasties found during the test flights. They must tell of the parameters of the test flights with the warning that, if you go outside of those parameters, you are effectively being a test pilot and could quite easily be killed or injured by that which you don't know! If you want to self regulate well you actually HAVE to self regulate. If you don't (and I've said it numerous times before) someone Will do it for you. Come on you guys. You CAN do it. You CAN build a safety culture in Skydiving. Start today!

Tried them on my second jump outside of my helmet. They blew off

Hi Billvon, I don't jump anymore and I have no intention to jump again. So, therefore, I have no credibility to train anyone in a discipline I don't understand. I am, however, pointing out a problem that I can see. That is people dying under HP Canopies that are fully open and functioning as per their design. Back in my day, people died because: 1/ they forgot where they were and what they were doing (ie nothing out) 2/ Reserve entanglement with Capewells or other gear malfunctions. 3/ Pushing the limits and not understanding the dangers. (ie my flatmate/room mate nearly died in the early days of CRW) So, what did we do to stop this carnage? In the case of number 1, AAD's came into mainstream use instead of just being for students. In the case of number two: Gear evolved especially with Bill Booth's invention of the three ring system. In the case of number three: Well not much can be done about this. Shit does happen but we learnt from this and tried to stop the shit from happening. (I know this is what you guys are doing now to try and stop HP Canopy deaths) The problem is that the fatality rate from HP Canopies is increasing year by year. So what you guys are doing about the major cause of death isn't working. Does anyone disagree with that? I suggested that the major beneficiaries of the downsizing craze (The Manufacturers )should help to pay for the training necessary to ensure that the people jumping their canopies are as safe as they can be. The closest I have seen to this idea on this thread is that training should be available. Well It IS available but it doesn't seem to be doing anything to lower the rate of deaths and injuries. So if the training was COMPULSORY and paid for by the people that benefit most wouldn't that be a step ahead? Lots of posters on this thread have commented on my wish to have these canopies banned. I have said several times that, realistically, that is not going to happen within the skydiving world. I feel that they are causing so much damage to the sport that they should not have been allowed in the first place. But that's just my opinion and opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one. Just remember that, to the regulators, Skydiving is just a pimple on the arse of a flea. Annoy them enough and they will do something to get rid of the annoyance. So, the ball is back in your court. You guys, that can actually do something, need to look in the mirror and ask yourselves " What can I do to stop this problem" (unless you don't see it as a problem and accept the deaths and injuries as mere collateral damage to your enjoyment) Flaming an Old Fart like me who is merely pointing out the problem is doing nothing to stop the carnage.

So what you are saying is let Dawinian Selection be the exam and the Grim Reaper be the examiner?

Say what you want. Call me an old man living in the past. Call me a boring old fart. Call me someone that wants to drag you back to my past. I DON'T CARE! I DO CARE about jumpers dying needlessly. You HAVE to change your training because the training you are offering now ISN'T WORKING! Before you say it is consider the fatality rate. If you say the training on offer is adequate, well, why are so many people dying. I can only see one reason: The canopies being jumped far out perform any training on offer. If jumpers with thousands of jumps are dying what makes you think you are immune? Every single one of you jumping HP Canopies for enough jumps has had an " Oh Shit" moment. If you say you haven't, well, I don't believe you. I've had two " Oh Shit" moments where I didn't think I might die. I knew I was dead! One was gear related and the other was a 2 man clusterfuck! Neither were canopy related. But I've been there knocking on the Grim Reaper's door. You guys have to change the training. You have to make it compulsory, not just available. Otherwise, there are plenty of Old Farts (I wear that badge with pride) who will say " I Told You So"

Well maybe they SHOULD have a TSO given their potential to kill jumpers. If it's all too hard just accept the carnage and what's coming down the road. In this thread about 60% of respondents say the problem is a lack of training. 30% say the canopies are the problem and the remainder are flamers. At least I've come up with an idea (however flawed that idea may be) to address the training problem. I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or refine my idea. If you can't do this well, you have truly lost control of your sport. Wow, you know how to ruin threads about canopies with your trolling, don't you? Hey Aggie Dave, This is a thread I started. If you think I'm trolling don't respond. I note you've responded several times however!

Well maybe they SHOULD have a TSO given their potential to kill jumpers. If it's all too hard just accept the carnage and what's coming down the road. In this thread about 60% of respondents say the problem is a lack of training. 30% say the canopies are the problem and the remainder are flamers. At least I've come up with an idea (however flawed that idea may be) to address the training problem. I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or refine my idea. If you can't do this well, you have truly lost control of your sport.

So the consensus on this thread is that the high rate of injury and death is caused by untrained pilots flying high performance canopies. Can we agree on that? Given that, there are two ways to go about solving the problem. Remove the canopies (And I've said before that, realistically, that's not going to happen unless you carry a really big stick like the FEDS do) or remove the untrained pilots (Either by stopping them jumping or training them to a more than adequate standard.) Adequate training is going to cost lots of money so who's going to pay? Well who benefits from this mad craze to downsize? The manufacturers, that's who! So, since they make the big bucks, make THEM responsible for the training. ie: They come up with a "Pilots Operational Handbook" like the fixed wing manufacturers do. (And that's not just a packing guide but a description of everything they found on their REGULATED test jumps and how to avoid the nasties that were found) They PAY to train qualified instructors on their latest little canopy and the prospective jumpers pay to get that training BEFORE they jump those canopies (And that includes mentoring after the first jump) If the manufacturers won't do this then their canopies don't get a TSO and NOBODY jumps them. (That also means NOBODY buys them) If you guys can't do this it means that you've lost control of YOUR sport to money and egos. If you're going to flame me please do me the courtesy of reading this post and digesting it first.

I know you've read this Dave but Airtawardo's translation is still relevant. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4110809;search_string=FAA%20Letter;#4110809 Most of the BOD and the RDs are DZOs. They have knowledge of the problem and the risk, they also have the ability to effect industry-wide change, but they don't. Will other DZOs listen? Interesting factiod, at least one BOD member/DZO I know keeps a tight reign on canopy selection and canopy control at their DZ. Why they don't insist (make a BSR) on this from every DZO, I do not know.

Many of us are participating in CC training ... even if it is only as students. I am a student of advanced canopy flight, therefore I seek out additional instruction from more experienced canopy pilots. How's that for ego? And guess what, when I looked, the training was available. That's why I'm not concerned about your empty FAA threat. Yes, more needs to be done to ensure that everyone gets the proper training at the appropriate time. And some of the training itself needs to be updated and mandated. I specifically challenged you to do more because I did read your first post. Perhaps you need get more involved with the sport besides trolling. Re my empty FAA Threat: Older and wiser heads than yours are worried about my empty FAA Threat. I suggest you read the below, especially Airtwardo's translation about 3/4's of the way down the first page. (Sorry, can't do clickies) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4110809;search_string=FAA%20Letter;#4110809

Me personally? I try to give good advice here on DZ.com, and when I'm on DZ.real-life, I try to watch others under canopy, and offer advice when I see areas that need improvement, or report to the management when I see areas that could cause injury. Beyond that, I've posted my ideas for fixing the 'big picture' several times, and back when I first developed the ideas, I forwarded them the USPA BOD member in charge of the Safety and Training committee, who proceeded to do nothing with them. According to another BOD member I know (who was not on that committee), the ideas, or anything like them, ever surfaced at a BOD meeting. Since then, I have reposted my thoughts many times, and they have been read by many BOD members (many of them are members here), and still no realistic action has been taken. So what do 'we' do? I don't know, I don't know what it will take to get the USPA to pull it's head out of it's ass, but they spend an awful lot of time (and money) on things that have no bearing on the FAAs desire to 'keep an eye on things', which is hard to believe. Considering that the letter from the FAA was featured prominently in the USPAs own magazine, the fact that they don't seem to be addressing the #1 problem in skydiving is just plain dumb. All 'I' can do is try to keep things on the right track in the little patch of grass I call home. I guess if more jumpers did the same, maybe we would have less of a problem, but that's not the answer. That requires a large number of people to indentify the problem, form a solution, and put the solution into practice with no real reason for anyone to listen to them. If the USPA would step up, on the other hand, it onyl requires the BOD to identify the problem and come up with a solution, then the large number of people step in to enforce it, this time with some 'teeth' behind them. Here's an idea Dave. Who has the most to lose if the FAA follows through on it's implicit threat? (and it was a threat) It would be the DZO's. They would lose their entire income. They have the power to stop anything they don't like on their DZ's and they have the most to lose. (Except for the people that will die in the meantime) Maybe a campaign to point this out to them might have some result?

If you'd read the first post on this thread you would see that I haven't jumped for a long time. So why don't YOU start to help with CC Training. Re getting them banned, I wouldn't worry about me. I'd worry about the FAA. What, exactly, is your problem with someone pointing out the carnage? Do you have too much of your ego or money invested in HP Canopies?

+1 ... bump! Four years and the OP has still not been able to ban those 'dangerous' canopies he doesn't like. Hey craigbey, And how many people have died under these small canopies in that 4 years eh?

Fear not, I won't keep you waiting. If such a canopy existed, you would simply deploy it above 4500ft, and it would not be lethal. However, no such canopy exists, so while this statement would be 'theoreticaly' true, it's not 'really' true. This is the same as the above. I guess it would be true if such a canopy existed, but it doesn't, so it's not. Again, no such canopy exists. Every canopy out there has the ability to fly straight with a range of speeds, and turn with a range of turn rates. None of them will take off on their own without pilot input. This is true, but it's true of all canopies. I'll give in that you got this one technically right, but not to the point that it serves your purpose of singling out what you believe to be HP canopies. The fact is, some canopies have more of a tendency to collapse due to very light loading, the exact opposite of HP. At this point there's little reason to go on, as we've determined that every canopy is potentially lethal. They can all collapse due to turbulence, and they all do it at an unrecoverable altitude. Just for fun, let's go on anyway - I just lumped them all together, because again, none of the above perameters are things the canopy can do on their own, they are require some sort of action (or in-action) from the pilot. The moral of the story, it's not the canopies, it's the pilots. Put any of the modern canopies in the hands of a qualified pilot, and it will respond properly to the input the pilot gives. From the outside looking it, you might think it's the canopies, but the fact is that they do what they're told. There are (literally) millions of jumps on the likes of Sabres, Stilettos, Sabre2s and Spectres, all without incident. It couldn't happen if the canopies weren't good, it couldn't happen if the canopies didn't do what they were told. Get off the idea that the canopies are the problem. It's the pilots. Ok Dave, How about we agree that some canopies are less likely to hurt you than others when you stuff it up? Over both of these threads I now agree with you that it is the pilots. So what are you going to do about it? (I don't mean you personally but the people like yourself that have the knowledge and skills)

For the benefit of those that didn't read the first post here it is again. I challenge you to find one of my 10 points that hasn't caused a fatality. Oops, should have exempted the Wingsuit docking on a Canopy. One thing that this thread has shown is that the training given on HP Canopies is so inadequate as to be almost criminal. When the Royal Australian Air Force was flying Mirage fighters one of the final exercises was low level night navigation. The students were told during their briefing that " If you stuff this up you WILL die" And they had 6 months of training on the Mirage prior to getting to this point.

Well Dave would you like to take my original post on HP from an old fart and tell exactly which one of the ten points I made are factually incorrect. I await your response grumpily!

Go away and play your silly games somewhere else.

I can't believe that PLF's aren't taught. It's a basic survival skill. What other survival skills aren't taught? (Besides good judgement and a healthy dose of respect for what you are doing)

Are you being a dick or do you truly not know? Either way it illustrates the problem in a way that my poor prose cannot.

Again, back in the day (30 years ago) I trained people on how to jump their canopies in my club. If you weren't trained by someone accepted by the CSO (Club Safety Officer) and didn't pass an EXAM administered by the CSO you didn't jump that hot Strato Star or Strato Cloud or (Gasp) Strato Flyer. You also had to have built up you experience on non wing type canopies before anyone would even look at you. The Pegasus: I didn't buy it because it was fast but because of the type of jumping I did. It was a very good all rounder. It was good for CRW, Accuracy, Demos and General Rel. We didn't show the size of our dicks by the size of the canopy we jumped but by the fact that we jumped. It was an incredible time of change in the sport and we DID KILL people because we didn't know what we didn't know. We learnt from these fatalities and tried not to make the same mistakes. I must have been moderately good because I'm still here. That's more than you can say for the 50% of fatalities that died under fully functioning, fully open canopies in the last 15 odd years. You guys really HAVE to back to the training regimes of the old days. If you haven't had the training (And I mean TRAINING not a 10 minute brief on what to expect) well, then you don't jump that canopy whatever wingloading it is. (And that training should also include PLF's) Saying the training is available and you just have to seek it out doesn't cut it as demonstrated by the Incident Thread.

If you're referring to the old farts that are posting in this thread, I don't think there's much to learn. The longer they are away from the sport and the more they cling to 'the way things were', the more irrelevant they become. People who have been in the sport that long have a LOT to offer if they remain current and can work with new jumpers to impart their wisdom and experience. But if all they're going to do is get nostalgic and holier-than-thou, I offer this... Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture A little of the glory of, well time slips away And leaves you with nothing mister but Boring stories of glory days Ahh craigbey, your generation isn't offering the newbies that instruction that they so desperately need. You seem to be satisfied with just watching the carnage.

Watched a guy, back in the day, trying a new accuracy technique with his 220 F111 canopy. It involved coming in downwind and initiating a 180 turn and hopefully coming out of it at about 10 feet lined up with the disc. Didn't work and he landed short of the peas 3 times. He gave it up after that. Funny thing was, he got up and walked away from each jump without even a limpy limpy. There was another technique that even worked on a StratoStar. If you misjudged your final turn (Too low) when you reached normal flare height you just flared with the non turn toggle and landed normally. Great for when you'd put yourself in Hazard City. A couple of years ago on a rare visit to the DZ I watched a young jumper (roughly 200 jumps) try really hard to hurt himself. He'd turned in hot and was heading for hazard city (Cars, fences, powerlines etc.) At about 20 feet he initiated a 45 turn to get out of the shit. I couldn't believe how hard he hit.