Marisan

There is a reason for the so called bullying. It's because those that are accused have been there and done that! We've seen the maneuver started and known that the jumper is in a whole world of hurt well before they did. Sometimes we have been running long before the impact. We have seen our friends body lying on the ground, piss blood and shit coming from every orifice making grunting sounds as they drown in their own blood (Thanks to whoever wrote this on DZ.com) We have frantically tried to keep our friends alive until emergency services arrive, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not. We have helped load our friend's body onto the gurney. We have been interrogated by the police. We've then made all the sad phone calls that need to be made. we've carried the coffins and the grief. There are those of us on this forum that have scrubbed the blood and guts off of the rig. So the reason for the perceived bullying tone is this: WE DON'T LIKE IT AND DON'T WANT TO DO IT AGAIN!

Good observation. As swoop ponds proliferated, pea gravel pits vanished. Now that swoop ponds are being filled-in, bring back the pea gravel! But then you'll have to teach them classic accuracy. A discipline that requires patience and skill. Good luck with that!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I mean that's SOOOOO dangerous. It's way MORE dangerous than when they used to have 35+ jumpers landing at the same time fromt hose DC-3 loads back int he 70's and 80's..... You can't get the guys loading at 2.5 to pull lower than 3,500 these days and those that load at 1.0 are comfortable pulling at 2 so there's the beginnings of your problems. I'm not saying its a realistic solution but everyone loaded at 1.0 would sure do a bunch to improve safety around this sport. 45 jumpers in Oz all trying to land in a 200 x 200 yard area. Never saw anyone die or get injured. Exit separation was the time it took the next group to stack after you left. Never saw anyone die or get injured. We broke off at 3.5, dumped at 2 to 2.5 and built a 4 stack if possible. Never saw anyone die! What changed??????????????????????????????

I make no comment. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4298727;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Don't forget the people that die in a mid air from someone starting a swoop and taking them out.

Thanks Calvin

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4297456;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out. Tssk Tssk Calvin. Play the Ball, not the Man! ...Said the guy who doesn't play ball. Ahh Calvin, but I did play the ball. I'm just lucky that, when I walked to the Aeroplane for my last jump, I knew it. too true. Like I said, you have it all figured out. And i'm still waiting for the FAA to come in an confiscate my JVX. Wait long enough Calvin and don't do anything. You may be surprised at what the FAA will do.

It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out. Tssk Tssk Calvin. Play the Ball, not the Man! ...Said the guy who doesn't play ball. Ahh Calvin, but I did play the ball. I'm just lucky that, when I walked to the Aeroplane for my last jump, I knew it.

It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out. Tssk Tssk Calvin. Play the Ball, not the Man!

What: How: When: Where: Who: The eternal questions. We know WHAT is going to happen. Someone is going to die! We know HOW. Someone screwed up under a perfectly open canopy! We know WHEN. Sometime in the next month (Two months if we are lucky) someone WILL die under a fully functioning canopy! We don't know WHERE. Could be any DZ on the planet. No where is safe! We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT? Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know? Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know? Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day? The truth is that we don't know who it will be! We just know that someone, who is walking around today will probably be dead by the end of April (Certainly by the end of May) under a canopy that is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Will it be YOU? Bon Chance Mes Ami's

2 x Fatality 1 x Injury

Because that's worked brilliantly so far. (!) John, you let your natural bias against any sort of rules colour your thinking IMO, and it's beginning to show in all your posts which detracts from any real useful message you could get across from your experience. Chances are if the rules are reasonably leinient they'll be no problem to 95% of normal people like you - but they'll catch the nutters out there. Unreasonable rules either don't pass inspection, or simple wipe themselves out over a short period of being implemented. You can't assume everyone is rational and right-thinking. To the OP; I'm not in favour of having canopy sizes simply dictated by jump numbers and wing loading. It's too complex a series of variables for that. If you have to have that sort of hard and fast rule, it needs to be a 'at no time will anyone, ever, exceed these numbers', and then it just becomes arbitrary - why 1200 jumps for a crossbraced canopy? What happens on that magic jump after 1199 that suddenly makes someone 'ready' for a crossbraced wing? I don't think there's a simple answer that you can apply in broad strokes to everyone. We have to change the overall skydiving culture of small canopies being cool, of people having access to buying them when they shouldn't, and a united front from the dropzone operators on each individual - no regulation works if some DZs are more lax than others. The impetus has to come from the jumpers, not the national bodies. Coaches and instructors who refuse to jump with people who are unsafe. Regular jumpers who refuse to get on a plane with the 200 jump wonder who's just bought a 99. Downsizing is about jump numbers and weight. It's also about aptitude, practice, time spent flying, physique, intelligence, reaction to instruction and a thousand other things. Maybe people shouldn't be able to buy their own canopies... maybe they need to have counter signitures from instructors, coaches or Operators to say 'yup, I agree this guy is ready for this next canopy'... at the very least, it would force the jumper in question to vet their choice through at least one other individual. (And no. I know this wouldn't work in the states because everyone would sue each You Guys are bumping up against LIMITS. Definition of LIMIT : the utmost extent . From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/limit Limits change with experience but there are ultimate limits. Sean found his with 70 sq ft (8000 jumps and a very experienced competitive swooper) Jeb Corliss got to within 1 inch of his ultimate limit and lived. Luigi Canni probably set the ultimate limit in wingloading with his 36? sq ft landing. The reason I say ultimate limit for Luigi is that you don't see too many fatalities under 70 sq ft. No one is game to go there.

And even further away from Parachuting, the raid did nothing to stop German Production of things that needed Ball Bearings. Reason was that Albert Speer (Reich Minister of Production) sent his minions around all of the manufacturers that used Ball Bearings and confiscated all of the over orders that were their "Just in Case" reserve supply. This enabled manufacturing to continue until the Ball Bearing Plant was rebuilt. This also had the secondary effect of convincing the 8th Airforce that Ball Bearings were not a strategic necessity as 2 raids had made no impact on manufacturing.

Thank you Airtwardo. Your graciousness knows no bounds

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4279115;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

When will you guys understand that you are bouncing up against limits. Definition of limits: The point, edge, or line beyond which something cannot or may not proceed. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/limit) Limits change with skill etc but there are limits that cannot be passed no matter how skillful you are (Or think you are) Jeb was lucky. He brushed the limit. Sean hit it! Limits mate jumpers with physics and physics always wins!

Thank you Bill. I am late to the party. So, in answer to that, was the latest fatality "Dumb Enough" or did he push the limits just a fraction too far? By the way, you can't push limits, you can only find them.

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Landing out. Just from an old fart. 1/ Try not to land out. (Do it safely or land out) To do this: A/ Learn to spot (I'm sure there are some old farts on your DZ that can teach you) B/ Check the spot before you exit (Especially if you are last out of a larger aircraft. The first guys out will optimise the spot to suit themselves. Not always but it pays to use this as a rule of thumb) 2/ After opening do a wind check. Face into wind and look for the spot on the ground that is not moving relative to you. That is where you are going to land. Of course if that spot is over your shoulder you have a whole lot of other problems but it still holds true. A/ To practise a wind check on the ground, place an object on the ground about 12 feet away from you and look at it. This is the sight picture you will get in the air if you are going to land on that spot. Walk backwards away from it still looking at it. This is the sight picture you will have if you are going to land short of it. Walk towards it while still looking at it. This is the sight picture you will have if you are going to overshoot it. You can adjust this sight picture by using brakes or front risers to change your angle of flight but only to a certain extent. This is very accurate way of determining where you are going to land from a substantial altitude and demo jumpers do it all the time. If you decide you are going to land out (You should know by 2,000 feet) start looking for safe areas. Don't worry about Farmer McNasty at this point in time. Obvious things to look out for are trees, water and stock (Stock is not the highest priority) Look out for more subtle things like a building in the middle of a field (It will quite possibly have power wires running to it) At this time (using your sight picture) you should know where you are going to land. Set yourself up and do a nice gentle approach into your landing. (Learn how your canopy reacts in ALL flight regimes) This is NOT the time to do a killer swoop! If, despite your best efforts, an unexpected hazard appears when you are committed to your landing, remember that a controlled flight into a hazard is better than a panic hook turn into the ground. Farmer McNasty is going to be more annoyed at Ambulances, Meatwagons etc cutting his fences and destroying his crops to get to your sorry body. After you have made your tippy toe landing exit his property. If he appears on the scene be polite and apologetic. After all it's not HIS fault that YOU fcuked up. Do NOT climb over fences or gates. It causes costly damage. If the farmhouse is nearby call past there and offer your apologies. As had been said earlier in this thread, as soon as possible return with the DZO and a cold case of beer. Always insist on paying for any damage caused. Lastly, report to the manifest on return so that people know you are alive and uninjured. A search for a body pisses everyone off, causes more damage especially when they find you on the booze in a trailer. Us old farts have seen and done it all

It started to die 30 years ago when the money came in. :-{

Or JYRO the famous canopy manufacturer. He would have you believe it means Jump Your Ring Off. It actually came from Gryo Gear Loose the mad inventor in the Donald Duck Cartoons. I was there when the name was given.

How about "OneShot" After his first fcuk. Oneshot and it was all over

There is no doubt that the margin for error (including not reacting fast enough or over-controlling the wing) does increase with more aggressive planforms and higher WL, but it does not have to be too small. There are ways to approach HP landings that are designed to maximize the margin for error, such as using front risers vs. toggles, carving turn vs. whips, being prepared to abort, starting from zero after every downsize to re-calibrate to the new wing's performance envelope and recovery arc. A major part of the problem (as you acknowledge in your later post) is that many people either don't know about this stuff or don't take the time to learn/apply it. HP canopies are fun to fly and I think it would be a shame to ban them, but they need to be treated with respect and learned carefully with dedicated canopy jumps. One of the problems as I see it is that, if you don't have the training and experience, by the time you realise that you are in the shit you don't have time to get out of it.

Hi Martini, Craigbey has been following me around these forums and harrassing me wherever I go. Pity as he has some good ideas. Now, I've learnt a lot since I started talking about HP Canopies. I still believe that a lot of people would be uninjured or alive if the lethal little bastards had never been marketed but take that as nostalgia from an old fart. The problem seems to be aggressive downsizing without the requisite skills to go with it. So the question is: How do you downscale the downsizing or upscale the skills? Well I can think of a couple of ways: 1/ Take the dangerous toys away from those that don't have the skills (I know, that's not going to happen, too much money and ego invested in them) 2/ Mandatory (MANDATORY) training before anyone downsizes. # 2 will work but, with the exception of a few lonely voices in the wilderness, no one is offering it. Perris seems to have taken an easier way in this but it remains to be seen how that will work. In fact people seem to take great pleasure in pointing in pointing out that MANDATORY training won't work. Well if training won't work, what will? I'll leave you with the thought that there are big boys within aviation looking at the skydiving communities reaction to this problem with great interest.