Marisan

So CraigBOY, You've never stuffed up an approach have you? In fact Craig, you've never made a mistake? Is that what you are trying to tell us? My position is (Now) that the margins for error on these canopies is too small. Unless your Mad Skills are such that gravity doesn't affect you. Spare a thought for those that don't have your Mad Skillz!

Never ever scared yourself Martini? I did several times and I've never swooped. Did watching Sangi's video not send a cold chill down your spine? I see you use a wingsuit. Did the threads on people that didn't do up their legstraps not send a cold chill down your spine. Did some of the incident threads not send a cold chill down your spine. Always remember " There, but for the grace of god go I"

Anyone ever heard of the "Peter Principle"? It states that people are promoted to their level of incompetency and then no further. How about the same applied to Parachuting? In my overweening arrogance I shall call it the "Marisan Principle" People downsize to their level of incompetence and then they either get a severe fright, get hurt or die. They then downsize no further.

And 14 of the 24 were under a fully open functioning canopy

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BSBD

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4246637;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Posted here at the suggestion of KRIP Hi Bill Why are you asking me for a solution? There's obviously a failure to comminicate. Now you all have the internet, and the USA is no longer the center of the universe or the skydiving world. The low turn problem is a international problem.Shocked Use your connections and put together a think tank of the best swoopers and jumpers world wide and see if the international world of skydiving can come up with a solution to this "unsolvable problem. " Remember Tonto the mod from South Africa We were all shocked when he died. some of the young ones may not have heard the joke that was going around in the 80's. "Who says jumpers are stupid we invented a whole new way to kill ourselves" Hook turnsUnsure I've got a T shirt from Z-hills called Hook Turn Horrors. that I got before you even started jumping.Frown And 30 yrs later the blood bath continues.Crazy The swooping pro's like Aggie Dave got their act together but for some reason the information isn't filtering down to the wanna be's.Frown Some of them have to learn the stupid way. If their lucky they won't kill themselves and they will be able to find a desK job. If their brain still works. The subject of this thread lucked out and busted his ass at Snore and they were able to keep him alive until the chopper got there. Read the first couple of posts in this thread Oh well just another low turnUnsure to bad nothing new to learn here lets move on. I'm ashamed to admit that back in the 80's I sat at a picnic table at a DZ in Fl and ate my lunch about 50 yds watching a dude get CPR. But the CPR was taking to long when the ambulance finally got there the DZ staff stopped the CPR and the Ambulance weren't in a hurry to load the guy up and left the DZ without light and sirens. I just witnessed a human being that I had been jumping with for a week die. He had a family.Frown Of course we got on the next load. Now people jump with AAD's, buzz box's, and altii's are opening at 4-5K because they have a slow opening canopy or prefer to have the extra time just in case they have a mal.Crazy The people that feel the need for speed and want to swoop like the pro's some of them don't have that safety margin. And DZ.com isn't hearing about all the injuries just the DOA's and the DZ's that that report the injuries. Read the link in the first post of this threadShocked Thats reality and the best the international skydiving community can do is brians book and some mentoring. Frown Well it's not working. If the industry wants to hide behind their waiver and brians book and ignor the facts thats fucked up. Have a merry Xmas with your friends and family the wife of the subject of this thread is going to spend Xmas in hell. IMO Thats a very sad thing. KRIP http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/timsagehorn/journal/7

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But...but...but...I have Mad Skillz! I speak 3 languages!

You may as well get 'er done now. You know it's coming. Probably sooner rather than later. Call me a cynic if you like. No, I call you a realist. Something that is sadly lacking in what I once called a sport.

To all those guys that are the lonely voices in the wilderness trying to stop the young ones getting in over their head, I salute you. To all those trying to train the young ones to prevent them killing themselves I salute you. To all those guys that can swoop safely I admire your skills. To all those people selling canopies to people that can't handle them, you stand condemned by your actions. To all those in authority that allow this carnage to continue, you stand condemned by your actions. To all those making canopies that push and push and push the limits , you stand condemned by your actions. To all the people that have supported me in this thread, I thank you all. I'll leave this now until the next injury or fatality caused either by an inexperienced jumper on an HP Canopy or an experienced jumper that is unknowingly in over their head. Then I'll say " I told you so"

Back in "The Day" when we first bought in squares for first jump students they were a 370 square foot ex military canopy (It was light blue, someone else should be able to come up with the model number) I can't remember anyone that couldn't flare that boat (Probably should call it an " Ocean Liner") However, they were still treated as dangerous and a large amount of the first jump course was spent on how to safely fly them. What are you guys doing now?

...this too! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=126256; Well that's stopped my dickwaving

Did a sub $1.00 load in Australia. First guy got out at 1300', 3rd at 1700' and last at 1300'. Jumper cost was $0.95 each. And I wasn't on the load but I manifested it and charged it.

Twardo would be one of the guys that's been there, done that. I've done it a time or two, but I was hooked up to the plane. Getting out at or below 2K is a different animal than going through there at terminal. An ole buddy & I did some accuracy at a small DZ this summer, we'd exit at about 2 and pull...the aircraft continued on up. The n00bs were a bit wary...even when I showed 'em I'm open 150' below the plane. 1650' on a rope and rings Strato Star for a demo into a major airshow.

Question for you Bill. How have STUDENT Canopies changed over the last 20 years. ie: how does a modern student canopy copare to a Comet for example?

Sorry, I was digging into Andrew's flickr albums for more pics of the Omega rig. The cutaway system starts about here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vintageparachutegear/6406829103/in/set-72157628163262517 Looks like the S Wrap that R&J used.

First 4 Stack built over Palmerston North in the late seventies. Ian Higgie Grant Rigby Frank Orvos And Me (Richard Kinloch Well when I can figure out how to downsize the photo you'll see it.

Well, I'm ashamed to admit that the thought has crossed my mind but I just can't give up. I just can't. We need help. We need help all across the country. we need help NOW. Some of the personal attacks I have received in this thread and via PM's have astounded me. So the question is: Who benefits from all this? It's the bloody manufacturers. Without the downsizing mania they'd be out of business. Look at it. Downsize from 200 to 150, New container as well, my bigger reserve makes the container look different so I may as well downsize my reserve as well. (The reserve that is my LAST chance) And all for what? I can jump the latest trophy canopy and every thing else matches so I can look fashionable. What else are they doing for fashion. Mini 3 rings that look good but increase the pull force necessary to cut away especially with the high speed spins that these HP canopies regularly come up with when they mal. Articulated harnesses that you can fall out of. What do you do about falling out? You put a stupid piece of bungy cord over your arse to keep the leg straps up. Any other industry would have redesigned the harness. You have a national body that doesn't appear to care about the carnage rate. They won't even recommend training let alone mandate it (Make it COMPULSORY). They merely say it should be available. So you're left with people like Bill Von and many many others fighting the good fight in their corner of the world whilst being flamed by all the kids that think it can't possibly happen to them. And all the while the manufacturers are raking the money in. I haven't seen any manufacturer (or the USPA for that matter) weigh in on this thread (and others) to say what their suggestions are to reduce the carnage. I doubt that I will either. (Excluding Bill Booth who came up with the concept of fashion re mini 3 rings) If that Petra Canopy in the swooping thread ever hits the market well God Help You All Jumpers have lost control of the sport and given it to the money men. Someone WILL take that control back. If you guys think Randy Babbit wrote that letter to the USPA just because he flew jumpers 40 years ago you are deluded. The FAA is concerned about the carnage and let you know about that concern in no uncertain terms. If you think that concern has gone away just because Randy Babbit is no longer head of the FAA you are even more deluded. One more gross negligence Tandem Fatality (Think students falling out of misadjusted harnesses) or one mad skills swooper taking out members of the public because his skills weren't as good as he thought they were and it's OVER. So listen to the voices in the wilderness and CLEAN UP YOUR ACT before someone else does it for you.

We used to do that until the pilot explained what could happen. We stopped then

Both. 1. It is a failure of the pilot when they get a canopy that requires more skill and experience than he/she can handle reliably, constantly. We have to remember that when we fly a HP wing that we must be "on" 100% of the time. It only takes one small error in judgement for us to get in over our heads. We must select a canopy that we can safely land 100% of the time and learn to fly that canopy to its maximum before we get another one. 2. It is ALL of our faults for letting this person jump that canopy. We have tried to lecture, teach, coerce, beg, arm twist and even yell at these people..... They don't listen. So it has LONG been past the time that we as an organization should have had a WL BSR that prevents those that only think they have the "mad skills" to handle the wing from getting in over their heads while at the same time having provisions for people that are actually that advanced to be able to advance at a rate that they can safely handle. I see the failure of the USPA to do anything about this as one of the largest failures of that organization. I am not saying I have *THE* answer.... .But it is clear that doing nothing is not actually helping and if done correctly the right solution will not hurt anything. The canopy portion of the ISP was well intended, but poorly executed. The "B" license checkoff is a decent start. How about: 1. Put five hop n pops in the program BEFORE the "A"? Instead we focused on freefall skills that are not life saving (Sit flying/center point turns). 2. Mandatory canopy classes for the "B". 3. A WL BSR with a stepped progression that can be tested out of with DEMONSTRATED competence. So Ron, what you are saying here is that anyone with an A License can buy an HP Canopy and have, effectively, no problems in finding a DZ that will let them jump it. That seemed to be the case in the last fatality here in Australia. If that's not true literally what level canopy could (Could not should) they get away with jumping? When did the experienced jumpers give away their authority (or have it taken away) to stop newbies making unfortunate choices. More importantly, how do the experienced jumpers get that authority back?

So Ron, What do you think of Calvin 19's ideas below? And of course anyone else that's interested. In Reply To For all those people that have sent me their ideas by PM. There are some really good ones. Can I ask you to post them on this thread so we can get some discussion going. A simple canopy progression license, required independent of skydiving licenses, but cannot progress to a higher loading until these are demonstrated. They can have the A/B/C/D scale as long as that does not get too confusing. (Canopy Pilot A,B,C, or D[unlimited]) A- up to 1/1 loading: demonstrate full stalls on risers and brakes, full control input porpoising, coordinated wingovers, spirals to recover to a heading, patterns to a spot landing. 100' square must be able to show good judgement in landing patterns and traffic. flight and patterns and landings on rears, etc. B- up to 1.5/1 loading: All the above (not rear landings) redone at 1.5/1 plus intro to accelerated landings, C-up to 2/1 loading: All the above at 2/1 loading plus advanced canopy course AND swooping course if wanted. (can't swoop without) D-2.5/1 to unlimited All above at 2.5/1 loading plus advanced swooping course. Just my idea, it's incomplete. And it's also a start

For all of you that wonder why I'm putting myself through all this just watch this video. Yes I know it wasn't caused by a HP Canopy but the footage on the ground is compelling I just don't want one of you to be in this situation in the next week, month, year etc. http://www.20min.ch/...d=228357&cid=120 Sorry, still can't do clickies.

For all those people that have sent me their ideas by PM. There are some really good ones. Can I ask you to post them on this thread so we can get some discussion going. I won't post them without your permission. Don't worry, the flaming doesn't hurt " that " much.

He was trying to blame canopies for the faults of the PILOTS.... It is clear he had an agenda and frankly I found most of it to be crap without any basis in reality. So, Ron, what is your solution to the problem of jumpers that can't keep up with their canopy killing or injuring themselves? That's my reality. I can only see two ways: Remove the inexperienced pilots (By Training them) or remove their access to HP Canopies until they have that training. If there is a third way I'd be very happy to hear it. Either way is going to take an element of compulsion. Having canopy courses available doesn't work unless people HAVE to take them. (Witness Virgin Burner et al) I applaud Bill Von for the difference he's making in his corner of the world but we need a world full of Bill Vons that have the authority to make their words mandatory. And, for the record I don't have any agenda other than reducing the carnage.