DocPop
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You...? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Reading between the lines (as I have to because you do not make a suggestion), are you saying that there is no place for personal evaluation and that BSRs are the answer? I would argue that this goes against the principle of skill demonstration that is the basis of AFF, static line, and the A, B and C licenses. I would further argue that BSRs have no bite and will only be obeyed by those who want to do so anyway. I know that because I have seen it happen. For those who want a BSR, why not have one which requires basic skill demonstration rather than requiring a totally arbitrary jump number? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Thanks for taking the time to post your reply. I sympathize with the no-win situation you put yourself in with "internet coaching". "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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I appreciate what you are saying, but you do not offer a solution. Ultimately, I think this comes down to the DZO and S&TA to make a decision to sign someone off to do X at their DZ. If, for example, neither the DZO or the S&TA have any wingsuit experience and the jumper wants to start wingsuit flying, then the answer could be: 1. Ask another experienced wingsuit jumper at the DZ to train/evaluate the jumper. 2. Suggest the jumper attends formal wingsuit training 3. If all else fails, go by the BSR I don't think we'll ever find a perfect solution to this issue, but I think we can take an intelligent approach to it. As I stated on another thread, I believe we already have the framework for this (through the powers of the S&TA), but what is lacking is the consistent will to enforce it. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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That's fair enough, I suppose. Sorry to hear you have given up in your safety crusade. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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John - I applaud your continued effort in several threads to try to get this point across. Recognition of this fact has several corollaries: 1. Someone (presumably an instructor) has to take the time to assess if a jumper is skilled enough for X, Y or Z. 2. That someone has to have the will (and backing of the DZO, S&TA etc) to say 'no' if the jumper fails to meet the standards. 3. All discussion of whether a jumper is qualified to do X, Y or Z on DZ.com is rendered invalid unless the person posting has been present at the "evaluation". "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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I don't think they are unimportant, but I don't believe they tell the whole story. However, a blank profile yields no information whatsoever. Why have you not completed yours? If nothing else it may add to your credibility (or not, probably, in my case). "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Welcome to the joys of beating your head against brick walls. Menopause and skybytch - if you think jump numbers, canopy type and wing loading are so important why are both your profiles blank? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Makes me think "STOLEN GEAR STAY AWAY". "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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In that case it is up to the DZO and S&TA. We can only hope that they would make the right decision. IMO in this case the right decision is not to let Stan jump and I imagine you'll get a pretty good majority on that. Is the point you're trying to make that we need more laws and regulations? I am not for that, but I think that might be the obvious conclusion from your (admittedly extreme) story. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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??? - was this deliberate, or did you mean AAD? This would be good ammunition to show why this individual does not know what he is talking about. I believe your example is different because you are talking about a non-skydiver whereas all your other examples apply to licensed skydivers. Without going into yet another thread about what is wise (or not), a skydiver with a license can theoretically jump whatever he wants as long as it is approved by the FAA, DZO and S&TA. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Is that not exactly what we are talking about here? My understanding of this part of an S&TA's role is that they should address safety concerns at a DZ, this would most definitely include a jumper doing something for which they are not sufficiently skilled, such as jumping a camera, a wingsuit, or a canopy beyond their skill range. Given that an S&TA judges that someone is exceeding their abilities and that it is causing an danger to themselves or others, the S&TA should take action, up to and including grounding that jumper. If I am correct in the above, then we do have the mechanism for enforcing safer canopy flight. What we do not have is the will to do it. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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No problem, man. There are ways to do it safely. My MRI was pretty ugly (I had a Bankart fracture) but it was all good after the surgery. I hope they have easier time getting the contrast medium into your shoulder than they did with mine!! Do some practice flares up high with rears and both toggles in one hand - it is actually quite a fun way to land and nice to know that you can if you have to. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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In other words - make the S&TA do their job? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Page 56 of the April 2010 Parachutist states that 56% of fatalities in 2009 were D-licenced skydivers. This is a different data set from my numbers up-thread but supports the same point. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Read the numbers I posted up-thread. There are people with 1,000 2,000 or 3,000 jumps fucking up under canopy and THEY ACCOUNT FOR GREATER THAN 50% OF THE INCIDENTS. Without a test of skill, how are you going to sensibly set your numbers to address the facts? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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A subluxating shoulder could well become a dislocated shoulder when exposed to the stresses of freefall so you are doing the right thing in planning for it. I jumped with a brace before I had surgery and it helped a lot. I actually still use it now, even though I have no problems since the surgery. I just figured that if I have it I might as well use it until it falls apart. This is the one I use: http://www.painreliever.com/bauerfeind_omotrain.html "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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I tried two methods on 2 occasions - rears and both toggles in one hand. Rears worked because I still had enough strength and range of movement to pull down 4-6". The risk with this method is a fast stall. Both toggles in one was better, but does carry the risk of a low turn if you're not symmetrical. Of course this risk would be worse on a more twitchy canopy. I did mine on my Sabre2 150 and it worked out fine. If it happened again, I would use the second method and, yes, prepare to PLF. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Do a search. I have posted multiple times on this from personal experience. Essentially: Surgery works There are braces available Adapt your EPs to know what you will do with a shoulder out Know how you will land with a shoulder out "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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I looked at the records for low turns/impacts with the ground in the US on sport rigs and went back the last 20 incidents. I only included fatalities where both jump numbers and canopy size were recorded. Here are the facts: Mean # jumps - 1,823 (15-7,000) Mean canopy size - 129 (84-280) Incidents with >1,000 jumps - 60% Incidents with
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I completely agree, but I think having to check off the items for B, C and D-licenses adds some more repetition to the process. I realize my proposal is far from a perfect solution, but a step in the right direction? I think so. We have to strike a balance between the right amount of coaching/education and the individual's freedom of choice. That is not going to be easy and there will always be people who complain about the current situation, just as there are those who complain about all change. I believe that the efficacy of the Dutch system is limited in that it only takes into account jump numbers (as I understand it) and there is a lot more than that to determining whether someone is under the correct wing. My proposal is that a pilot should have to demonstrate some level of skill under canopy at several points during their skydiving career, rather than just at
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How do you propose to evaluate that skill? Some kind of test? I think that would be an excellent idea. Some kind of checklist involving the kind of canopy drills taught on canopy courses could be required for B, C and D licenses. With the current USPA system it is quite possible to never have any canopy advice or coaching after the A-license card is completed. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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This teaching/misunderstanding is killing and injuring people. Why are we drilling this into the heads of new jumpers? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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What deployment method do you have on your primary sport rig?
DocPop replied to DocPop's topic in Gear and Rigging
Hey Nancy - thank you so much for a very informative thread. It is great when really experienced people like you give a detailed informative answer like that. I am really excited to get my new rig! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA -
Dude - THAT was bad advice. I jumped a borrowed Velocity 111 yesterday and I now have a broken tib/fib to show for it. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA