DocPop

Loving those names "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

That makes sense. I hadn't thought about it in terms of the fact that loosening the chest strap eliminates an angle in the lines/harness, whereas pulling (down or out) on the rears introduces an angle as you point out. Thanks for your explanation - interesting stuff. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Would it not be true to say that pushing the risers out lateraly would flatten out the canopy and make it less anhedral (in the same way that loosening a chest strap does)? Pulling straight down would probably not have this effect. I am sure that the effect on the glide of the wing would be negligible, but I do think there would be some slight difference in the way the wing would respond. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Oh really? Well you sure sound like one when you say this - A mature person, with an understadning of what they were doing, would realize that when you ask a question and the majority of responses are not what you wanted to hear, or contrary to your position, that maybe you are the one who is wrong and not those answering your question. Dude - the issue is that people were replying to a question that I didn't ask! I do respect your opinion that I am not ready for 180s, but equally I realize that you are basing that opinion on never having seen me fly. Thanks for trying to do what you believe to be best for me. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Thanks again, Dave. I can hit the swoop course when it's up (it's made of pool noodles). However, I will ask my local coaches if they think stepping back to 90s is going to help me. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Thanks for the answer, Dave. Brian Germain's number was 4-6 seconds so that fits right in there. In no way am I trying to imply that I do have a full sight picture - but the only way I'm going to get one is to jump more (and not die). "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I was going to let this thread fade away as I was getting the usual shit from some people instead of an answer to my posted question, but since you have genuinely tried to help - thank you. I understand the negative aspects of 180s, and usually land either on my own after a Hop n' Pop or on the alternate landing area across the runway where nobody else lands. My accuracy is fine and I have taken 2 canopy control courses and have a pro-swooper at the DZ who is willing to give advice and watches my landings. I leave my self "outs" and am prepared to use them. I consistently plane out high at the moment, but am adjusting my turn-rate rather than initiation altitude to overcome that issue (hence my original question). This is an issue I had with 90s until I got some video coaching and I know that the answer is not just to start lower. I appreciate the concern, but I am not an 18 year old hotshot (I am in my late 30's but how could you all know that) and I fully understand that in a face-off between my body and the planet - I will lose. I also pounded in, bounced and walked away - it gave me a whole lot of respect for gravity and I learned from it. Perhaps I should not have even started this thread, because I found the answer to my question by re-reading Brian Germain's book (TPAIP). However, it's a pretty shitty thing when someone with a genuine question feels like they shouldn't ask because of the tone of some of the replies. Is that what this forum is for? To the people who have posted constructively - thanks again. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I just pulled the rig apart to check, I see what you mean...but it doesn't look to me like there is any way (other than line breakage) for it to drop off. It's a fairly new canopy and came rigged that way, but I will definitely have Denny (rigger) take a look next time I'm at Spaceland. Thanks! Cool man - just thought I'd let you know. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Hey Jim - you might want to check how your toggle is attached to the brake line because it looks to me like it is misrouted (ie. the loop is passed over the short part of the toggle rather than the long end). I would hate for you to lose a toggle when landing! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I have low jump numbers and I am being cautious. I also intend to get as much coaching/mentoring as possible. I am really not that interested in freefall and all my jumps are oriented towards canopy flying. I moved from 90's to 180's because I feel they give me more time to adjust the turn in response to the sight picture. In other words I can assess how the turn is going and bail if I need to (a bit like flying the set-up in brakes to slow things down). I originally deleted my jump numbers when I posted this because I knew that I would get more comments regarding that than actual responses to the question. I appreciate your constructive help (and warnings!), and will leave it at that. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Thanks to you both for your advice. Stu - I have been getting advice/mentoring from Joe who used to work at Mile-Hi and he's been really helping with advice. I have also done 2 canopy courses with Luigi Cani, but that was before I progressed to 180s. From what you've both said it sounds like I need to turn slow, smooth and consistent and then when I have that nailed, start bringing it down to where I am getting the plane-out I want. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Voted! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Spiraling stabilizes the canopy by inducing lots of line tension which increases the rigidity of the wing (Brian Germain talks a lot about how line tension is your friend). The problem comes when there is less line tension (at the start or end of a turn) and when the rate of rotation differs between the canopy and the pilot. This is more likely to be an issue with smaller elliptical canopies as they can turn faster than larger, squarer ones. FWIW I finish a spiral not by letting up on the inside toggle, but by pulling the outside one down to 'flare' out of the turn. This keeps the line tension while slowing the rotation of the canopy/pilot and reduces the risk of inducing line twists. This is not really answering your original question, but I thought I'd chip in anyway! Edited to add: Obviously, the pilot needs to be very aware of other canopy traffic when spiraling hard, and should not perform this maneuver over the set-up area or landing pattern. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I have just started doing 180 approaches and wanted to know if there is an optimal time to hold the carve for to maximize the power at the bottom end. I am flying a Sabre2 150 loaded at about 1.3 and have been starting at 580 feet. This requires a really slow turn to make it last all the way down but feels very controlled. I don't want to have to hang on double fronts for too long after the turn because riser pressure builds very quickly in that flight mode. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Oh God no, it gets in the way as it is! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

In addition to davelepka's advice, I would also say that all the drills on the "downsize checklist" also help newer jumpers get a feel for how the canopy responds to various control inputs (swooping being a combination of knowledge and feel/experience). The other drill which can never start too early is to practice flying a repeatable pattern and landing with accuracy - this will help HUGELY when it comes to setting up for a HP landing.

Fantasy - Aston Martin DBS Reality - 2009 Audi S5 "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

A couple of points spring to mind: 1. The flare characteristics of your new canopy could be very different from the previous canopies, so try a few practice flares up high to identify the "sweet spot" (i.e. the point in the flare at which you swing under the canopy and level off to horizontal flight). 2. Try a full flight approach vs using half brakes. This will give you more airspeed to convert into lift when you flare. Good luck! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

A good flare depends not only on height, but also on the technique and the speed of the flare. - A flare performed too high can be saved by slowing it down, or even stopping the flare until the canopy sinks to a more appropriate height. - A flare performed too low MAY be savable if the flare is speeded up - we've all seen people "pop-up" during landing. Think about it like braking a car to stop at an intersection. How hard you need to brake depends on how far from the intersection you start braking. There is no one "perfect" answer. You need to react to the feedback from your senses and respond accordingly (i.e. fly the canopy all the way to the ground). Note: I realise that there is a perfect way to extend the glide on HP landings, the above is intended to help the OP land safely. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Wow - very split decision so far. It's been 50:50 the whole way. Is there anyone who teaches canopy control who would like to comment? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I have heard arguments for both cases - so I thought I'd ask the experts. Thanks!

What!? There is a lot of evidence to support the existence of death!! And theres a lot of evidence to support there never being death No, there is NO evidence to support there never being death. That is why religion is based on faith (ie. "belief that is not based on proof"). "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

What!? There is a lot of evidence to support the existence of death!! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Having just been through Luigi Cani's course (again) over the past 2 days, I can tell you that the method he teaches for anyone loading under 1.8 is as follows: 1. Flat turn onto final (upwind) leg at 400 feet. 2. Arms right up for full flight for at least 10 seconds. 3. Flare to 'sweet spot' at 12 feet (sweet spot to be practised by pilot up high on every jump). 4. Finish flare completely when holding the sweet spot no longer maintains horizontal flight. All this was fine-tuned by video coaching and was very effective in the class which consisted of jump numbers raning from 25 to 8,000. Hope this is useful. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I am sure Brian would agree that it is better not to fly in turbulence, but the topic still needs to be discussed to allow pilots of canopies of all sizes to have a plan for IF they encounter less than ideal conditions. Just a couple of weeks ago I was on a load where the conditions changed dramatically (15oF temp drop, 180 degree wind change and severe wind shear/turbulence all the way to the ground) between boarding and being under canopy. Ideally, I would not have been on that load, but as I was, I would have preferred to have had this discussion before that jump! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA