DocPop

Having been berated on here for my canopy choices and desire to learn HP canopy flight very early on, I know how ineffective it is to tell someone (well, someone like me anyway) that they are going too fast. Let's use this thread to collect CONSTRUCTIVE ideas to address this problem. So the question for the poll is: "What would you do if you were a S&TA/DZO/DZSO/CCI and you saw someone clearly moving too fast in either what they were flying or how they are flying it?" Restrictions speak for themselves, but suggestions to exactly HOW you would educate someone would be very interesting to read. Additionally, having restricted someone, when do you tell them the restriction will be lifted? ETA: the prompt for this thread was an excellent post by Fast in Incidents. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Dave - I know you usually jump a Velocity. How do you go about swooping something with such a different recovery arc from your regular wing and how many jumps did it take you to get it dialled in? Did you do some performance envelope exercises up high? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Fair edit! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Okay, this logic I don't get. Can you explain why you think that an RSL is a good substitute for an AAD? While they are mostly for different scenarios, the are both aids to getting a reserve out and there is some overlap between them. There are situations when either would be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Awesome. Thanks Ian - I saw a video of Curt chopping a canopy because his rings locked up his brake. I want to minimize my chances of a chop (obviously). Even now I do all the housekeeping (including releasing the brakes) before loosening my chest strap. I guess I'll try to pull all the rings down before removing the slider and see how that works out. All that is left is to jump it..... "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Thanks Dave. So you pulled the front rings down only? Is that right? It was a little hard to tell. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Neither, thank you. ;-) "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I assume you mean "arc"? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

What do you want it to do? Without that your question is unanswerable. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I just ordered a removable slider and was researching what to do with the rings. Any cons to pulling the rings on the rears down and leaving the ones on the fronts up above the slinks? I ask because I have some pretty big front dive loops and it sounds like all the risk is linked to the rears risers/brake lines. Thanks in advance. PS - my risers have top rings, but not on the slinks, on the risers themselves - if that is relevant. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I agree. Teaching someone to go to the edge of a stall but no further has some value, but it doesn't teach how to recover from a full stall, or provide the confidence that having experienced a full stall provides. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

This sounds a lot like jealousy of a sponsored athlete. They guy whose rig was stolen is a great person who goes out of his way to help other skydivers. He earned his place on the team through skill and having the right personality. He does not deserve either to have his rig stolen or your disrespect. I hope your gear never gets half-inched. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Stop that right now! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Can you narrow it down bit? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Only if you order them that way. You can get a Stiletto with Dacron too. Not sure why anybody would want it, but there ya go. Didn't know that was available. Seems to me that HMA/Vectran would be a more sensible choice but I guess that means a whole lot of work for PD and nobody seems to be complaining. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Spectra shrinks with use (due to the heat from the slider descending). But yes, they go out of trim. Sounds like a bad idea on an elliptical to me but that's what Stilettos come with, too. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

To add to your comments (with which I broadly agree); the issue is somewhat complicated when it comes to learning to swoop. Shorter recovery arc canopies are generally recommended for learning because, by their very nature, they are lower performance canopies than the longer arc wings. Whilst it is still possible to kill/maim your self swooping a Sabre2 150, it is much more forgiving than a Velocity 90. As has been said before, if you swoop you will hit the ground hard. It's pretty much a certainty. The plan is that you make your mistakes on lower performance, shorter arc canopies making smaller rotations before slowly graduating to the less forgiving wings when the foundation of flight is solid. I hit hard doing a 90 with a Sabre2 150 and walked away. This was partly because I didn't get the instruction I needed and was trying to work it out for myself and partly because learning a sight picture is a dangerous business. I am now doing 270s on a longer arc canopy and feel safer because I have more time in the turn to assess how the turn is going and to adjust/bail if necessary. However, the consequences of getting my assessment wrong are much more dire than they were on the SA150. There is no SAFE way to learn to swoop, but there is a more forgiving path which will allow you to learn from your mistakes rather than die from them. This path includes equipment choice, seeking out good advice, using modern turn techniques, making canopy dedicated jumps, starting from scratch with each new wing etc, etc "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I know humidity (part of density altitude) affects pack volume, but are you saying that the actual altitude of the pack volume does? If so, could you explain how? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

How are you defining getting "every ounce of performance"? Does that mean you can go as far and as fast as Nick, Curt, Jay etc would on that wing? I am sure almost nobody that gets an x-brace gets EVERY OUNCE of performance out of their previous wing. What counts is are they familiar enough with the previous wing in all flight modes including flying on the edge of a stall. It's quite possible for jumpers to be safe on a wing they can't fly like a world champion. I agree that there is a minimum ability level (See the downisizing checklist) to be attained before going smaller/elliptical/x-braced is advisable but that is a far cry from getting every ounce of possible performance out of it. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

I think that Dave's point is that so many of these type of accidents ARE foreseeable - if not as a certainty then at least as a very distinct probability. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

Marc I really think anyone telling you to "get canopy x" is doing you a disservice. You know that you're going to have to ease back into the smaller sizes, and that's what you are doing. Once you are back at the 135/120 point I suggest that you demo a bunch of different canopies to decide what YOU like. It seems to me that one of the keys to your point is an interest in knowing what the newer canopy designs are like and therefore you should have a list to try not a single model recommended to you. Here's a start on the list: Pilot Safire2 Sabre2 Stiletto Crossfire2 Katana I take Fast's point about your potential currency being a little low for the last two, but I don't think they necessarily have to be a problem. Canopies don't kill people, pilots do. The statistics prove that. There are certainly more models out there that you could try but the above list is a good starting point depending on what you want. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding. This is good. How are people supposed to plan their canopy flight and pattern if they don't know which way they (and everyone else) will be landing? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

You don't get away with it that easily You still have no clue as to what spoutings you made were BS, do you? So again, enlighten me, oh Great Teacher. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

So after all your calling BS you really do agree that linestows just have the potential to cause problems and going without is entirely acceptable. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA