brettpobastad

Technically true. Opening shock is opening shock. that's a function of the canopy and slider. It can be affected (for better or worse) by such things as slider placement and how you treat the leading edge, etc. However.....Snatch force is affected (again, for better or worse) by how you stow the lines (as well as pilot chute type and size, bridle length, d-bag type, etc.) If you decrease snatch force too much (by double stowing, for example) you may actually increase the forthcoming opening shock. This statement is also correct. but there are a whole hellava lot more things that affect how 'hard' or how 'soft' your parachute opens besides just the size of the slider and how fast air goes in the nose. My experience tells me that it is much easier to fuck up a properly folded canopy with improperly stowed lines than the reverse. An example in plain english would be that a properly quartered slider and rolling the shit outta the nose won't make a bit of difference if you double stow your lines and your using a worn-out 21 inch pilot chute. The point of this whole excersize is not that double stowing your lines is bad (it is!) The point is that most jumpers don't understand the dynamics of an opening parachute. I'll be honest, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here so I'll respond by saying... "If you double stow your suspension lines, you can expect an increase in line twists and off-heading openings. This phenomenom occurs because the stows are now too tight, compromising the oreintation of the bagged canopy as the jumper continues to accelerate away from it (the d-bag will 'dance around' and 'ossilate')" I think that's what you are trying to say here: Not true. It has a whole lot to do with how hard or how soft your parachute opens. Jumpers think (correctly) that if they double stow their lines they will slow down that part of the opening process. What many do not understand is that if you slow down this part of the process too much, the bagged canopy now has time to catch up to the speed of the jumper, thus resulting in more 'opening shock' because that faster moving mass of nylon will fill up with are faster and hammer your fat ass! (sorry, got a bit carried away there for a sec) You can see how a pilot chute that is worn out or too small would make it worse. You can see how tight jumpsuits faster freefall speeds might also affect openings. Some also believe that double stowing will prevent line dump. Maybe, but the inherent drawbacks could be far worse. There are better ways (neat, even long stows) to do that. Use your rubber bands for 'good' not evil! Don't double stow! "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Muffy! Did you just dog me? My fourteen year old son says you did. I was thinkin' you liked the web site. Brett NBR 17 Muff 162 "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Toledo Parachute Center / Skydive Toledo Started operations at the Toledo/Winlock Airport just North of Toledo, Washington in 1973. Toledo is about 4 miles East of Interstate 5 about halfway between Portland an Seattle. "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Liz Brett Martin here from SKYDIVE TOLEDO in Washington State. First of all, congratulations on the new record! 400 pluss tandems in 24 hours is truly an accomplishment. But goddammit! You messed up our attempt!! We were preparing to break the record at our boogie at the end of August with a measly 150! I'm curious (and of course, jealous) as to how you guys set that up. I am confident that we were dialed in pretty well but you kicked the crap outta us before we even started! Way to go!! Would you be able to connect me with the brains behind the outfit? Looks like I need some 'schoolin'. Again, congratulations! ...but watch 'yer back! Brett Martin (360) 864-6875 www.worldrecordtandemskydive.com www.thepoopsheet.com www.badbonesparachutes.com www.skydivetoledo.com "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

RR Withya on the reserve patch. What's your beef with a sewn, sticky ripstop tape patch? Brett "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

We may be simply mixing up terminology. For clarification: Factory Pack, Stack Pack, Flat Pack -You lay the canopy on it's side and stack line groups on top of the previous group. Then you evenly flake the tail. Pro Pack, Psycho Pack, Trash Pack -set th prakes first, stand while flaking the canopy symetrically. Roll Pack, Flop Pack -Start with the canopy on it's side like a stack pack. Roll the nose and tail toward the center. Might your 'old school' buddy be refering to a 'Roll Pack'? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Gotta disagree, RR. Tight stows may artificially mask other issues such as sloppy or short line stows, or mismatched or improper components. In other words, a triple stowed mini rubber band might keep a short, sloppy stow from releasing out of order, but that's the wrong way to address the problem and by doing that, you may be creating a whole bunch of other issues. Check out 8.1.12 of the Poindexter Manual. Brett "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Let me ask you a couple of questions: Who was that 'someone'? Did he elaborate and show you how and why that might happen? Did he have any specific examples? And more importantly, where you having any sort of deployment problems at the time? I'm thinking you must mean that as the lines unstow, the could wrap around other stows that are too long?? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

I agree. In order of importance when stowing canopy suspension lines: 1. NEAT stows. 2. EVEN stows. 3. LONG stows. And a distant…. 4. SNUG stows When stowing your lines, it is most critical to be neat. Sloppy line stows will only enhance the ngative effects of everything else. It is also important to make all the stows the same length and tension. Longer stows work better than shorter ones. I feel that two to three inches works the best. Jumpers double stow suspension lines to avoid line dump or to soften openings by slowing down line deployment. A better way to avoid line dump is to lengthen your stows and be neat about it. Double stowing your lines can actually increase the overall deployment force of your parachute system. Double stowing also contributes to line twists and ‘off heading’ openings. Use the right size rubber bands for the job. I find that regular rubber bands work the best for the first one or two locking stows (depending on D-bag configuration) with most all line types. Mini rubber bands after that for micro-lines, etc. and regular rubber bands for Dacron. I would avoid any other type of stow bands. I would avoid surgical tubing style bands as well as those red and black Butyl rubber things. "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

What kind of stows? Long? Short? What kind of stow bands? Rubber bands? Tube Stoes? Bungee Elastic? Those red or black Butyl rubber deals? Got any pictures? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

What system was it? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Incorrect. A rubber band, even if you 'quadruple stow', will not directly cause a bag lock. The rubber band WILL break. Bag locks are caused by sloppy packing and incompatible equipment components "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Yes....yes I am! "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

QuoteOK RSL's have both saved and killed people. They have saved more than they killed..But for me a saftey device that when properly used can kill you...Is not such a great saftey device. Statistics say that the chances of a skydiver releasing his main parachute and then not deploying his reserve parachute (for whatever reason) are infinitly greater than the possibility of an RSL causing any sort of problem. I have never seen or heard of any instance where a properly installed RSL 'killed' anyone! The choice of whether or not to have an RSL on your rig is a personal one. But make sure you have all the facts and understand the concept before you make that choice "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

What is the difference between a G-3 and a G-4? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

I'm curious as to jumpers and riggers opinions on the relative merits and potential side affects of 'double stowing' canopy suspension lines when packing. "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Duct tape is bad for another, more important reason. The glue seeps from around the edges and will contact and contaminate other canopy surfaces. I do not agree on most views concerning sticky back ripstop nylon tape. On smaller tears or burns, I will use sticky back tape and sew around the perimeter of the patch. It's easily strong enough (perhaps stronger than a 'by the book' patch) It's quick and easy. It's cost effective. It is true that the glue may degrade the underlaying material over time, however, that should not be a concern because that same material would be removed when (or if) a permanent patch was applied. I have never had a problem with this type of patch. Patching a reserve canopy is a different story. "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

What (or where) is the oldest continuously active drop zone in the Northwest United States? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

How do I get me one 'o them canopies? I don't know what I was thinking but I would have guessed Steve Snyder. ...or was it Ted Mayfield? "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

I'm a Racer man myself. There is no such thing as an ugly Racer. With that being said.... That is the ugliest fucking rig I have ever seen in my life!!! It is so ugly, it borders on cool. "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

...got postponed. We hope to do it this Friday. I will definatley let you know when I jump one. I'm looking forward to it. Brett "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

Out of curiousity, I asked Nancy LaRiviere from The JUMP SHACK about the Racer Tandem saftey record..... Brett, There has been one fatality on a Racer Tandem. It occurred in Italy about 4 years ago. The Tandem Instructor apparently pulled low, experienced a main malfunction and pulled the reserve handle without cutting away. The fatality was attributed to apparent failure to cutaway. Examination of the system revealed the mechanics of the system in working order. I estimate that there have been approximately 9,000,000 tandem jumps made on Racer Tandems over the past 15 years, and there has been one fatality. The Racer Tandem has the best safety record amongst the top 3 Tandem Rigs (Vector/Sigma, Strong, Racer), hands down. You're absolutely right on all the other points. The Racer has always been the most elegant and simple in its design. RWS and Strong tend to be "additive" in their approach to design. John Sherman has a talent for over-all, integrative design, and it shows in the Racer. I've heard Bill Booth say many, many times, and I quote, "Sherman did it right the first time". You are also correct in that many people do not realize that the Racer has evolved over the past 30 years, and is not the same "old technology" as it was 30 years ago. With the Racer, Jump Shack has introduced more real safety features than any other manufacturer : Non-compressible housings, Teflon-coated, maintenance-free cutaway cables, Teflon impregnated Type 2a, a Tandem Drogue that can be cut with a hook knife, the 3-point cutaway/drogue release, center-mounted line-stows, the Speed Bag which prevents line strip, John Sherman re-wrote the book on 3-ring systems and Type 17 riser construction, created Pro Packing, he literally taught Bill Booth, Sandy Reid, Henri Pohjolainen and Derek Thomas how to build harness/container systems. In 1986-87, when PD first came out with their 9-cell canopies, the canopies didn't open or fly very well. Guess who they came to for information on low speed aerodynamics? I could go on of course, but does that adequately answer your question? Nancy ...yes Nancy, it does answer my question. Thanks. I'm wondering when everyone else will get the point. "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

This Friday I'll be jumping a Sigma for the first time. I'll let you and the rest of this thread know how I liked it. And I fully expect to be impressed by it. Will you be making a jump on a Racer Tandem anytime in the near future? ...skies! Brett "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

I'm going to give you one more chance to retract your statemernt..... "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

The medical and dental.... "It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"