LawnDart21

Its not the "same sense" Delta vs Cross Keys. If it were, then like a Delta ticket, why doesnt it (the cost of a tandem) fluctuate each week, as fuel costs and insurance rates go up? Tandem tickets dont typically flucuate during a season, becuase one tandem or a weekend of tandems dont determine how much fuel is bought that week. Most DZs either "pay at the pump" as they need it at an airport, or more common, have a fuel farm that is filled as needed and drawn from. Neither scenario lends itself to the cancelling or not of potential tandem students cancelling (1 or 100) having any affect on the day to day fix and variable costs of running the DZ. Have you ever scratched from a load your were manifested on as a fun jumper? Did you get charged a cancellation fee? Its no different charging a fun jumper a cancellation fee for scratching a load than it is charging a tandem jumper, the difference, the tandem jumper doesnt know any better. If you manifest for a 2 way at 2pm in manifest, and say your 2 loads back, so its a 3pm call, then at 2:20pm, your employer calls your cell, and says, its an emergency, we need you at the office right now. When you go tell manifest that you are scratching the 3pm load, do you think it would be fair that they charge you a cancellation fee? Do you think as a fun jumper, you would continue to jump at a DZ that did that to you? Its not a potential tandem student's job to pad the pockets of a DZ if they choose to cancel a jump within a reasonable time frame, through a "cancellation fee". And yes, to answer your question, if 400 students sign up for tandems and Cross Keys goes out and ferries in extra planes, extra fuel to cover it all, and then they bail, yes, Xkeys has the right to be made whole from the expendature and a "reasonable" fee to compensate them for lost business that they could have made taking other students up. But if those 400 people cancel before the extra plane is contracted, before all the extra fuel is bought, there is no ethical reason on earth (or above it, as our sport goes) to collect cancellation fees from the 400 jumpers if they didnt cause any financial duress to the DZ. Thats pocket padding and its unethical. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

You bring up a good point, but look at the two comparisons you made, an airline and a day spa. Delta is a macro case, as they sell 1000s and 1000s of seats each month, and part of thier ticket purchase prices are based on, among other things, current fuel costs on that macro level. If they had one person cancel a flight without being charged a fee, they would be fine, but if you have 2,000 people cancel their tickets on a weekend and not be charged a cancellation fee, that would have a major impact on Delta. If it happened over and over again, they could even risk going (surpise in the airline industry........) bankrupt. Now unless your day spa (micro case) had to turn away another customer because your spot was the last free one available, and you cancelled to late for them to rebook the slot, they had no reason to charge you a cancellation fee, as your cancellation cost them nothing if they refilled the slot. And even if they didnt "fill your slot", as long as your appointment didnt prevent them from seeing other people at different times, ie as long as they werent operating continously at full capacity, your reservation/cancellation would have zero impact on their production. So basically you got charged $25 for the privieledge of holding a reservation. Because you paid $25 for nothing related to the service that you sought. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

As a consumer, I have a problem with that statement. It's not a complete refund. They are losing $30. Most DZs (that I am aware of) take credit card deposits to hold a reservation, and would only charge a "cancellation fee" if the person cancels within like a week of thier jump or no shows on jump day. That makes sense, as manifest is pacing its day based on a finite number of slots available each day. If a group of 40 books and then no shows, then presumably 40 other people could have been schedule for the same day, had advanced notice been giving. It is fair for a DZ to expect to be compensated for that lost revenue, and charge a cancellation fee, but to simply charge a standard cancellation fee, when the consumer gives the DZ ample time to fill the slot being cancelled is rediculous. . My question would be, can you explain what it is that the $30 represents and where teh amount came from? I'f I pay say $200 online to do a jump 4 weeks down the road and I decide a week later that I simply dont want to do it and want a refund, what in the world has the DZ lost that is worth $30? What is it that is worth $30 to "cancel" a tandem slot that can easily be filled before jump day? They are basically being charged: $30 to cross thier name off of a note book? or $30 to press delete in JumpRun? or Is it because it was done online, and it costs $30 to press "cancel" online? So, again, I ask please explain what this $30 fee is compensating the DZ for? I can see if they cancel a day or two before the jump and its too late to fill their slot or they no show that day, the DZ is entitled to a reasonable fee to accomidate what they would have made had another tandem jump been made in that lost slot, which could have been refilled had adequate notice was given. If adequate notice is given by the customer that they would like to cancel their reservation, they should be allowed to do so without being charged $30 to erase their name off of a manifest notebook Charging a $30 cancellation fee, simply for the act of "cancelling a reservation", may be legal, but that doesnt make it ethical. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

(Disclaimer, my wife and I both jump Cobalts) I had a convo with a few people on my DZ that were looking for thier first swoop canopy, ie, they were thinking Xfires, Stilettos, etc. They asked me what I thought of my Cobalts and I told them I loved them. Then came the standard "Yeah, but I've heard they open like shit" comment and "I heard they suck". So my response was simply "Have you ever jumped one?" All answered "No". So I let them all jump mine, and they loved them. I agree too though, that there is no arguing the fact that some people that have jumped Cobalts simply dont like them. I have another friend who jumped a Cobalt and said it was the worse canopy she had ever flown. She jumped (at the time) a Saphire. Now I have about 50+ jumps on a Saphire, and would rather fly a student canopy than a Saphire. I absolutely hated every jump under one. I feel the way about the Saphire that she does about the Cobalt. Point is differnet people perceive canopies differently. How does a canopy treat one person great and make another feel like they're flying with the parking brake on? So, in conclusion, I'm sure you experience with Cobalts sucked, as have others, but that can be said for most canopies out there. There are people that love/hate all kinds of canopies for all kinds of reasons. Cobalts just tend to get a little extra crispy in the flame department sometimes.......lol. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Agreed. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

The next sentence in that post: Would you say there is a higher occurance of partial mals (something overhead) or total mals? Its my opinion there are a higher number of partial mals than total mals that occur (as the mains are rarely still in the container when I am given it for a reserve repack), so the majority of malfunctions do have a main out to cutaway. I agree with you 100% from an EP perspective. Edit to add: I think Bills comment on semantics might apply here. I'm not saying that your reserve handle shouldnt be a jumpers primary response to a break away. I absolutely positively believe that it is the jumpers primary release option for the reserve, All I was referring to the RSL as a function was that when connected, and when breaking away from a canopy over head, the RSL will pull the pin before the jumper does with the reserve handle. So, that was my pirmary comment, that the RSL actually pulled the pin first, when attached and if/when it worked the way it was supposed to. That was all I was saying. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

The two points I thought was making are 1) that if (and it is only an "if") the RSL works correctly, there is nothing left for the reserve handle to pull, as "beating the RSL" is essentially an out of sequence reserve deployment, because the RSL is designed to pull the reserve as the break away occurs, or a second or so there after. And 2) these additional layers of "safety devices" are only given a job to do when the jumper fails to do thier job. I personally don't believe in RSLs. Never jumped with one as a licensed skydiver, and never intend to. As for AADs, I jump with an AAD because it is required at my DZ for working with students. Not at all. Any comment that I have made about RSLs was either related to the physical functionality of the device, and that these safety devices (AADs & RSLs) are only factors in a skydive as a result of a skydiver failing to do thier job (AADs) or perceiving there is a chance that they may not do thier job (installing an RSL). I mean what is the answer to the question: "Why do you want an RSL on your rig?" mY guess is the answer is "In case I cannot find/pull reserve handle in an emergency". That to me is a jumper's perceived notion that they may fail to pull thier reserve handle in an emergency situation. I may not have gotten my point across well in my last post, so I'll try it again worded differently; that in the event that a RSL is connected and a cutaway occurs from a partial malfunction, that there will be no pin left to pull with the reserve handle. The RSL will pull the pin before the jumper does with the reserve handle. That doesnt mean I think people with RSLs should not include reserve pulls in their EPs, simply that a correctly functioning RSL will pull the pin first. If you want to read that as I am preaching device dependance, then so be it. I don't think I am, but I've been wrong before. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I hear what your saying, but the bottom line is that on an RSL equipped rig, the RSL (when it works, and it works most of the time) is the primary pin puller, and the reserve handle becomes a secondary redundant mechanism. That doesnt make pulling the reserve handle any less important in an emergency, but like how it sounds or not, if you choose to jump with an RSL, it is your primary pin puller when connected and your cutting away from a partial mal. (Totals excluded). That is not an inappropriate thing for someone to convey on this board. And as I stated in another thread somewhere, if you "beat the RSL" you are basically initiating an out of sequence deployment, opening your reserve before your main is safely cut away. RSLs by design release the reserve at the earliest safest point after the main risers have been released. To "beat the RSL" is simply to open your reserve while your risers are still attached. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Mary & I are only a dinner invite away! -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Gil and I went from Pepperell to Orange in 10 minutes once, but we cheated, we flew over in his Piper.........lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

How many speeding tickets does that include......lol Are you guys planning on having the Thankgiving Day boogie/weekend again this year? I think I want to get in a few jumps before I pack in my gear for the winter. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

If the jumper operates as he or she is supposed to %100 of the time, this thread would not exist. This thread exists because people are not infallible, and when they do screw up, it is then that the design/functionality of these auxillary safety devices assume the responsibility of performing the action that the jumper failed to perform. Is that device dependancy? Yup. Would I rather have an device dependant jumper alive to debate with in the forums or a dead non-device dependant jumper that I cant debate in the forums? Under that context, pilotdave's post about gear typically working the way it's supposed to, is quite correct as he wrote it. If the RSL worked every time the way it was supposed to, pulling the reserve handle would serve no function, as the RSL would always open the reserve in a cutaway from a malfunction (totals aside). But of course RSLs dont always work as intended, hence the need for pulling the reserve handle every time you cutaway to ensure a resevre opening in the event the RSL malfunctions. So again, reaffirming pilotdave's comment, if an RSL works every time (%100 reliable) then there would be no need to pull the reserve handle, because at %100 reliability, which is a farce of course, any time the risers left the container, the reserve would be activated. Only a total mal, where cutting away would not release the risers from the jumper, would requre a reserve pull under Dave's hypothesis. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Hi Mark, Yup, Skydive Pepperell (www.skyjump.com) is 15 minutes away. We have a Super Otter, onsite rigging loft (www.parachuteshop.com) and plenty of room for camping out. See you in the tunnel! Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Ed, you crack me up...........lol You forgot to add stinky, short and old.........lol You guys going to LW for the boogie this year? We'll have to have you and Amy up to the house this winter for dinner. Can you fly into Manch-Vegas, Pepperell or Brookline? Tommy -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1795708;search_string=%26quot%3Bi%20can%20handle%20it%26quot%3B;#1795708 Read please. (If someone can make a better clicky, by all means go for it.....lol.) I think Dave's point was/is, that at 180 jumps, no, you don't know what your getting yourself into, because despite all your reading and research, you really do not have a clue what that canopy at that wingloading is capable of. As for accepting the consequences, people are getting riled up w/you because your being selfish. Your placing your need to downsize over the better good of our sport. If you hook it in and injure or kill yourself or someone else, it affects all of us. No one wants to see you get hurt, and no one wants you pissing on our (collectively, including you) sport by doing things that the majority of the jumpers on this board consider reckless. You may have come here looking only for advice, but its our duty to each other to call "BULLSHIT" whenever we see/read something that isnt right, your not the first to hear all this, and wont be the last. Dont take it personal, its only cause people care. Lastly, I'd be remiss if I didnt mention the fact your canopy has 3 times as many jumps as you do. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Its been my experience that there exists a certain population in our sport that simply lose interest after some time in the sport, or put better, delevope new iinterests outside the sport. It's not unlike the dusty golf clubs in the closet or the guitar you havent pick up in a couple of years. There are those in our sport that eat, sleep and breathe skydiving, and sometimes they (we) over look the fact that not every one considers skydiving to be the same acme of existence that they do, which makes comprehending why someone would voluntarily leave the sport difficult for them. Its hard to imagine some people just consider skydiving a fun thing to do, like playing golf or going sailing. And when the actuvity, in this case skydiving, ceases to be fun, it just makes sense to stop. I applaud anyone that comes to the realization that for whatever the reason, skydiving isnt there thing in the right now, and if they decide to call it quits, I say bon voyage, good luck out there, and we'll keep the light on for you, and a slot ready on the Otter, just incase its not for good...........lol Best of luck in your future endeavors ChrisL, Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Skygod says what? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

There are more than enough incidents in the incidents forum regarding the "I'm above the bell curve" jumpers like this one, in the 100-300 jump category, who thought they could handle it. And thought that their canopy choice was very appropriate given their self perceived skill level. The base, er, point is, 100-200-300 jump jumper, jumping a moderately aggressive wingloading on an elliptical canopy, was,is, and will continue to be the background info on a large number of our sports injuries/deaths. The other thing I wanted to comment on was that I didnt read anyone ripping on him, just my .02. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Stick your unpacked main canopy in a cotton pillow case. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Don't they drug test these events? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm a 190 lb TM. That means I am gear loaded: 3.8:1, hence my gear weighs just over %25 of my bodyweight. A 130lb TM would we loaded 2.6:1 or almost 40% of his (or her) weight. I can't think of a single dynamic that ratio might have an effect on....., but I do think I just came up with a new "loading", we shall call it "Gear Loading", and there shall be much rejoicing........ -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm not jousting, I legitimately would like to know how you consider a cypres unit that cannot be jumped, a threat to our lives? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Do manufacturers like Mirage or RS currently have a maximum suspended weight for their harnesses? I can imagine a scenario with a sport rig with B-12s on the leg straps. Lets say the manufacturer says "400 lbs max load" on a harness. That would mean each leg strap webbing is capable/rated to safely handle 200 lb loads each. Now lets say we have a 300 lb jumper jumping a container with B-12s, that is appropriately under the 400 lb limit. If a B-12 comes undone in freefall and the jumper deploys, there is now a force of 300lbs being bore by one remaining leg strap/webbing. Could that scenario cause an otherwise "under the weight limit jumper" harness failure at the other leg strap? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I think the ad had like only 2 or 3 lines of text, which included the DOM. Thats the scary part. You absolutely implied that there is a possibility of a disreputable rigger installing the unit. Your statement that the seller "endangered your life and others" absolutely implies that there exists the possibility that the unit could be jumped expired, and the only way for that to happen, is if a rigger installs it and seals it in the US. By insinuating that this guy risked your safety and others, you are by default implying you believed that some rigger would install it in a rig, that is the only way for your "he endangered myself and others" statement to carry any credibility. Which goes back to my original counter point to your original statement, that while this seller may be shady, he certainly didn't endanger anyones life, as the unit would never end up in a container to be jumped. Lets look at it from this perspective, if the unit was sold, and if it was installed, and if it was jumped, and if it malfunctioned, who is responsible? Only one person, the rigger that would have had to install it and allowed the person to jump it. Does that mean that seller isnt a dick for selling someone an expired cyrpes unit that may not know any better? Nope, he'd be considered a dick in my book for that. But he (or she) is not endangering anyones life or limb by selling it. Its the responsibility of the rigger installing it to ensure its airworthy. And its the jumpers ultimate responsibility to understand how their own gear works. So I'll close with a question. If a rigger would simply not install the unit, and acknowledging that only a rigger can install the unit, then how is this seller (despite being shady for selling it in the first place expired) endangering anyones life and limb? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

LOL -- My other ride is a RESERVE.