lancefrazier

I think I'm going to Wally World and getting a couple of pairs of big floppy shoes and red rubber noses for Lance and Fincher,,, Anyone care to contribute??? so, skyride represents the devil to you, but walmart is is your shopping venue of choice? i bet you live in some shitty little town that walmart has dislodged all the local retailers from. that's voting with you wallet! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

1st you say a guy has no life, then you minimise his accomplishments. What have YOU done in comparison? List them out for us. You do make at times, what I would consider to be a sincere attempt at a logical argument...then totally blow any credibility you may have built. If ya don't like the guy say you don't...DO NOT minimise someone else's skydiving accomplishments EVER. Stuff like that tells people a lot more about you, than you likely want 'em to know. My DZ accepts SR tickets, I don't agree with it, but it's not my financial bottom line. My DZO and I have an agreement, he gives me a great place to jump, I stay out of his business practices. You contend that your DZ is a great place to jump...that's cool, most DZ's are...go with that. Do you have an actual financial stake in the SR business? Why would you so fervently defend a fraudulent business practice that does in fact hurt the sport? Help me understand. first off, i know exactly who billy vance is. his accomplishments as a skydiver proceed him. he's way ahead of me as a jumper and a dz.com poster. i've really accomplished nothing in life, as you can tell by my midnight presence on dz.com(what's your excuse?). my arguments are pretty logical, really. i'm not seeking cred on dz.com, trust me. " If ya don't like the guy say you don't...DO NOT minimise someone else's skydiving accomplishments EVER. " -struck a nerve, huh? i could care less what people know about me, i'm a pretty open book. "My DZO and I have an agreement, he gives me a great place to jump, I stay out of his business practices. " -he can do that in part from the revenues generated by his affiliation with 1800skyride, i'd venture. i'm sure he feels super lucky that you decided to let him run HIS business! "Do you have an actual financial stake in the SR business? " -absolutely! i'm the janitor at asc! "Why would you so fervently defend a fraudulent business practice that does in fact hurt the sport? " -i defend myself, my friends and my dz. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on. Each and every time anyone want's to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned: Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received the Falcon, the Double Falcon, the Eagle, the Double Eagle, the 36W Silver Falcon, the 64W Golden Eagle, Star Crest Recipient, Star Crest Soloist, 4-Stack CRW, 8-Stack CCR, 8-Stack CCS, 12FF, Gold Wings, PRO 120, 1997 Alabama 40-way RW, 1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps), 1997 New Jersey 100 way RW, 1999 New Jersey 101 way RW, 1999 Virginia 88-way RW, 2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW, 2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW, 8 separate Deaf World Record skydives, 22 Demos, Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot. He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps. You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup. irrelevant! irrelevant! How is Billy's accomplishments Irrelevant??? Just another deflection tactic to keep from owning up to supporting a criminal organization, And I'm just talking about the sLyride scam! All that evidence can't be wrong!! yay! jeffs here! everyone get out their helmet and crayons! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

read the thread dave, READ! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

well don't worry john, i'll show you how! "If you knowingly participate in a crime, you are still guilty, either legally or morally, whether or not you are caught." -absolutely correct! "As far as the questionably-funded dz's you mentioned, how much is innuendo and how much is proven fact? (Let me say, I know exactly what you are talking about, however, I have never seen proof-positive as I have in the SR case, firsthand. Also, I do not frequent the dz's in question. I know a lot more than you think I know). " -no one is going to drag that out in this thread, trust me. oh, and i'm sure you know all about it.... "Your argument about some supposed past drug operations in skydiving do not concern me at the moment (nor do those alleged in that movie a few years back concerning the CIA involvement in heroin-trafficking in the 70's) This is not to give them a free pass, but rather one to ask that we keep this conversation more contemporary. " - your team brought it up! i take it that you italics on "past" drug operations indicates that if someone got away with it it's acceptable. nice. "Non-refundable gift-certificates are a crime, though I will give it to you not as severe as those from drugs or murder or violence (or child sex trade, as has been ridiculously compared); nevertheless, they should be dealt with." -on what planet? do you think that the gift cards pushed by every retailer in america are refundable? admission to disney is NONREFUNDABLE. is that a crime? gift certificates are nearly universally nonrefundable my friend! "Sadly, if only skydivers knew about Skyride, this whole thing would be a moot point because it wouldn't exist. It is not an internal conflict, but rather, one which affects the general public of those who know no better than to click on the nearest website pointed out on "Skydive North Pole, only to find that Santa lives just outside of Cedartown, Georgia" " -caveat emptor, welcome to free market capitalism. if i shop online for socks, what compels zappos to inform me of the shoe store around the corner. "I honestly don't think that when you ask government official about skydiving that they will pointedly make issue of drug trafficking," - oh some certainly will. and the georgia attorney general has dealt with FAR NASTIER events on georgia dz's than upset tandem customers. trust me buddy boy... "The remainder of your argument appears to me being that Skyride may be bad, but drugs and child-sex are worse! " -which is a rational position he is entitled to... "For once, I am at a loss for words... " -good, get some sleep! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

dave, could you find the time to answer the questions i asked you earlier? or are you too busy attacking people who agree with you in principle, but not in method? parabuteo, disliking skyride will not be enough, you'll have to take the party line, and never ever agree with us.... sorry... well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

Maybe not, but let's keep in mind what we're talking about. Maybe a guy does run some drugs. Then he gets busted, and does some time. When he gets out, he opens a DZ, which he eventually builds into one of the biggest and best in the country. At the same time, this guy develops marketing and management ideas that allow DZs to grow, and realize great profits, and he shares these ideas with other DZOs. Is it wrong to patronize his DZ? After he paid his debt to society (he did the time), and repaid his debt to skydiving by investing all his time and money into a DZ, and then helping other DZOs to succeed? I think not. If the Skyride crew would cease and desist, repay society or skydiving in one way or another, then give it a decade to blow over, I would jump at their place if they then opened a legit DZ. would you extend the same warm welcome to a slaver who opened a dz after paying his debt? well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

i certainly did, to good effect i might add! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on. Each and every time anyone want's to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned: Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received the Falcon, the Double Falcon, the Eagle, the Double Eagle, the 36W Silver Falcon, the 64W Golden Eagle, Star Crest Recipient, Star Crest Soloist, 4-Stack CRW, 8-Stack CCR, 8-Stack CCS, 12FF, Gold Wings, PRO 120, 1997 Alabama 40-way RW, 1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps), 1997 New Jersey 100 way RW, 1999 New Jersey 101 way RW, 1999 Virginia 88-way RW, 2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW, 2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW, 8 separate Deaf World Record skydives, 22 Demos, Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot. He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps. You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup. irrelevant! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

Lance I think I see your point. A crime commited 200 years ago and a crime commited today have a pretty big thing in common. THEY ARE BOTH CRIMES. Plain and simple. Peoples acceptance to brushing off the past and that it doesnt matter is a clear example of how many moral compasses around here need a tune up. Wendys example of how she didnt do anything wrong was a perfect example how so many people fail to see things clearly. I'm sure she is an outstanding person and model citizen however she failed to see the fact that she propagated the acceptance of visiting stolen artifacts. If she would have done a 1 second search she would have seen that there has been a debate over them since they were put on diplay in 1816, the Greeks want there shit back.....but sick burn on them cuz those things were in the past right? So do I get extra credit Lance? I will be down in cedartown this friday if i did get it right.... you make me proud! to hell with skyride! let's talk about cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and bad logic. i'm sorry to make an example out of wendy, it just presents itself perfectly. and she rendered it up for our review. at the very moment she was admiring those antiquities, the greeks were demanding their return. they were stolen. wendy paid someone to see them. she was complicit in the crime. is she a criminal? nope! in my eyes, the theft of those antiquities were a very remote concern to her. basically anecdotal. by her own admission (which i take no issue with) she is just a geek. we are just "lackeys". the comparison of skyride/it's owners/affiliates/staff to drug traffickers and slavers is too ridiculous to even qualify as slanderous. mark, does bill know you are typing gunk like that on dz.com on company time? to condemn asc staff and fun jumpers for an issue that is of NO MORAL IMPERATIVE TO THEM WHATSOEVER, is unfounded. as i have said before, we are defending our dropzone from muckraking, inaccurate assertions and general dumb shit. we don't defend cary, because he doesn't need or ask us us to. yes, we work for him, in the same sense that the stockboys at walmart works for the deceased sam walton. everyone has opinions about skyride, even me. calling ASC staff "skyride lackeys" or "thieves" or other derogatory names because they take great pride in the dropzone they work/jump at is ridiculous. if any of you haters think the "skyride supporters" here have a vested interest, or any concern for that matter, in the business practices, (which, for the record, have improved incredibly) of skyride, they are wrong. if you want to take the tack that we are some how complicit by association, take a real hard look at the corporate structure of the company you work for, the holdings of all your mutual funds, and for that matter the parent company of every business you spend money with. furthermore, you'll want to check the registration of every plane you jump from, even at your "anti skyride" dropzone. the moral high-ground is a slippery terrain... We do not create or control websites. We jump. i assure chris spence that a large part of his wardrobe is derived from third world sweatshops. if you are looking for the moral highground, you'll find it only when you are naked, buddy. pilot dave, i don't mind you accepting the kind of behavior you are not morally offended by as it relates to skydiving. can i ask for the same courtesy? if you still don't understand my point, i'll pm you my # and i'll walk you through it. jeff napier, prudence would guide you to a more restrained demeanor. you've proven over and over that you're not concerned with the well being of the sport, it's students, or you reputation as a jumper. you are still, despite your lies, sabotage and lack of mental focus more than welcome on the only uspa group member, full time, ass kicking good time dropzone serving middle tennessee. i'll still do your recurency jump for free, and others will pay for the slots(there will be video). billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry.... i propose that we as skydivers find a cause worthy of our passion. something we can transcend our differences, come together in unison and fight together to defeat. the tragedy that is cat aids. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

The argument of current and past practices is a moot point when people lambast Skyride yet have no problem with using equipment and aircraft that could only have been paid for with dirty money. Just because it is the past doesnt make it anymore wrong than things that may or may not be happening in the present. buddy, you are well on your way to lift ticket. unfortunately it can only be awarded to non lackeys... well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

lame... well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

ok class, extra credit time! i'll buy anyone a lift ticket at their home dz if they can tell me what my point is... the answer "defending skyride" will get you after school detention! well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

for the benefit of anyone unfamiliar with the topic of this thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

did you pay to see the elgin marbles? who benefited? did others have to travel too far to see them? did others pay more than you to see them? do you believe that a crime unpunished is less immoral than one brought to the light of day? well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

thanks wendy, but no, what dave is saying is that criminal acts that occured in the past, that promoted skydiving, are of no concern. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

I'm rereading what I wrote and I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not saying I don't care about criminal behavior. I hope the skyride guys go to prison. I'm just saying that many skydivers, maybe most skydivers, are willing to ignore lots and lots of bad behavior when it doesn't affect them personally. I can see why you don't give a crap that the owner of your DZ is a piece of shit (he's not on here, so that's ok to say, right?). Lots of people wouldn't give a crap if their DZO funded his dropzone by doing lots of horrible things. But I don't think you see that skyride is bad for skydivers. You SHOULD care, even though skyride is nice enough to let you jump out of their planes. Some of us get very annoyed at those of you that support skyride dropzones because we see how they hurt us. Dave "I'm not saying I don't care about criminal behavior." -that's exactly what you said... " I'm just saying that many skydivers, maybe most skydivers, are willing to ignore lots and lots of bad behavior when it doesn't affect them personally." -like most humans in general... "But I don't think you see that skyride is bad for skydivers. " -please elaborate. how skyride has affected YOU personally would be a great start. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

I think the difference is that skyride hurts US. Skydivers. The fact that there are DZs that were funded way back by drug dealing or whatever just doesn't have an effect on us now. Skyride is a cancer. It's not just that they're immoral and criminal, it's that their "business" affects skydivers. I know a lot of people don't see that... especially those skydivers jumping at skyride's awesome dropzones. But, in my opinion, that's pretty freaking short sighted. Ignoring immoral and criminal behavior is the norm. Ignoring a threat to our sport should not be the norm. Dave dave, did you really mean to say that? drug money, child slavery and other wickedness is cool, as long as it doesn't affect you? mark, dave is the first to answer your melodramatic moral quandry. he's not bothered. chris, dave proves your assertion "The sad truth is there is a percentage of people,not only in this sport but society in general, that really would not care about any of the things on your list as long as everything works out ok for them." " Ignoring immoral and criminal behavior is the norm. Ignoring a threat to our sport should not be the norm." maybe for you buddy, most of us find it a bit pathological. awesome... dave, edit quick. or someone will think you are as awful as me... well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

jeff, i take it you have great faith in the evidence.... well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

jeff, are you kidding? as a "skyride lackey", i know the truth. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

I understood that perfectly. It does not matter if a company, whether it be a skydiving company is guilty of any of the three offenses that you listed here, wrong is wrong and there no such thing as two wrongs makes a right. I don't have any information about whether or not sLyride is involved in offense 1 and/or 2 and therefore, I have never said anything or made any accusations to indicate such, but there's no doubt that sLyride has routinely committed offense 3. And if it has not happened yet at Clarksville, it will only be a matter of time before it starts happening there. Admit it guys, you can't help yourselves. The company's greed runs really deep. You can't deny that all those people got scammed by your company because all that evidence can't be wrong. How do you explain the Georgia court order and being on the Tennessee Dept of Consumer Affairs Buyer Beware list? And Why are they transferring their domains to show an ownership in Tennessee and a couple of other states? That looks like they are attempting to hide them from the Georgia Attorney General to keep him from monitoring them. All that evidence can't be wrong! jeff, jeff, jeff, grownups are talking, honey. run along and play in your room. we'll call you when dinner is ready. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

If a DZO made all of the money that was used to buy their fancy planes and buildings selling children into sex slavery in Asia, would there be anything Morally wrong with jumping at their DZ, and using the assets that were aquired by the selling of these children? What about if they sold Heroin to make the money used to buy the DZ? What about if they scammed unknowing people by lying about where they were located to entice people to purchase nonrefundable services and only letting people know they were lying after getting their credit card number? It's a matter of degree, but why would you jump at a DZ for example 3 and not example 1 or 2? Mark Klingelhoefer mark, how good of you to point out the moral implications of spending money with an outfit of questionable ethical position. it must be hard tracking every dollar of your investments, perusing the corporate structure of every business you deal with and being ever vigilant against lining the pockets of individuals with whom you take issue. let's look at the other side, while you are here... as a former sales professional, i have to wonder, do you perform a thorough moral inventory of your potential customers? do you research the pedigree of every dollar in your paycheck? do the unpunished felonies of my misspent youth disqualify me from jumping my beloved micron? or, as things are "a matter of degree" should i just take the skyhook out? lance well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

hear, hear, sir. well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

in a succinct, nearly elegant way, you have said a mouthful. the next poster, however has beaten me to the punch.... well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo