willard

The year was the most CURRENT one for which the FBI has published data. You'd prefer 1929 maybe? Do your own homework. By the way, I only posted this stuff to disprove the bogus claims made that CCW results in lower crime. I've done that. Crime may have gone down in FL and TX after "shall issue", but it also went down in "no issue" states. No, what you have done is discarded all the data that you don't agree with and posted what was left. Do you run an experiment 10 times, discard the 8 results you don't agree with, show the remaining 2 and shout, "Hey! Look what I found!"? I certainly hope not. Regardless of whose crime rates are higher or what the latest trend is, if we lived in the same city you would stand a higher chance of being stabbed to death in a mugging than I. That's because I carry a means of protecting myself, you don't. That chance may be very small, but it's a lot smaller than yours. You, of course, have a far greater chance of having your gun fall into criminal hands and used against you or your family. Maybe small, but not zero. But at least I have the option of using it if need be. Of course, you could always trust your life to the mercy of the miserable wretch who is robbing/mugging/beating you.

My point is that ATC cannot prevent aircraft from crashing into buildings. The NTSB proposal is silly. Only if you consider ATC to be totally inept and that Lidle's crash wasn't an accident. If you believe it was and accident, even caused by pilot error, then the safety record of ATC in NY is solidly against you by a factor of several million to one. By your reasoning no pilot has ever had his flight path corrected by ATC to avoid hitting buildings in NY. Now, I'd like to think all the pilots certificated by the FAA are that talented, by I seriously doubt it. Sorry, John, but your whole argument is silly. If you don't want more regs in place than just say so. But don't try to say ATC is incapable of making things safer to justify your stance. Lidle and his instructor could see the building. How would ATC telling them a building is there make the slightest difference. People walk into, drive into, run into, and, yes, fly into things that are in plain sight quite often. ATC could have reminded them about the danger had they been under ATC control. Sorry again, John, but humans aren't perfect. Your argument is still silly. Your assertion is based on the assumption that no pilot under NY ATC care ever strayed off course and had to be corrected. I seriously doubt that human pilots have that good of a track record.

I'm gonna sue your ass for putting the idea in my head when I become a fat bastard (er..fatter bastard).

The year was the most CURRENT one for which the FBI has published data. You'd prefer 1929 maybe? Do your own homework. By the way, I only posted this stuff to disprove the bogus claims made that CCW results in lower crime. I've done that. Crime may have gone down in FL and TX after "shall issue", but it also went down in "no issue" states. No, what you have done is discarded all the data that you don't agree with and posted what was left. Do you run an experiment 10 times, discard the 8 results you don't agree with, show the remaining 2 and shout, "Hey! Look what I found!"? I certainly hope not. Regardless of whose crime rates are higher or what the latest trend is, if we lived in the same city you would stand a higher chance of being stabbed to death in a mugging than I. That's because I carry a means of protecting myself, you don't. That chance may be very small, but it's a lot smaller than yours.

My point is that ATC cannot prevent aircraft from crashing into buildings. The NTSB proposal is silly. Only if you consider ATC to be totally inept and that Lidle's crash wasn't an accident. If you believe it was and accident, even caused by pilot error, then the safety record of ATC in NY is solidly against you by a factor of several million to one. By your reasoning no pilot has ever had his flight path corrected by ATC to avoid hitting buildings in NY. Now, I'd like to think all the pilots certificated by the FAA are that talented, by I seriously doubt it. Sorry, John, but your whole argument is silly. If you don't want more regs in place than just say so. But don't try to say ATC is incapable of making things safer to justify your stance.

I find it highly unlikely that radar could pinpoint Lidle's position relative to any building or river. Plus, there are many inaccuracies with radar in that type of environment and elevation. Granted I've never been in a NY radar facility, but typically only certain geographic points/locations are labeled on a controllers scope. Maybe JR can pipe in? This was poor piloting and nothing else. And I for one wish for "less" fed involvement with my flying, not more. My experiences with radar equipped facilities has been different. The controllers seemed to know quite accurrately where I was in relation to obstacles such as towers, buildings, etc. Yes, it was poor piloting. Since the area has little room for screw ups the prudent thing to do would have been to get closer to the riverbank before starting his turn. I am not in favor of more regs anymore than you are but, in all honesty, I was surprised to learn Lidle was not required to be in touch with a controller in that area. Feedom from ATC in rural areas....great! In a highly populated area...bad idea.

Sorry. @$#^(*^$@%@%&#* That better?

Are you suggesting that Cory Lidle wanted to hit the building? Or that it was an invisible building that only ATC could see but Lidle and his instructor couldn't (in good VFR conditions)? ATC's job does not include obstacle avoidance for VFR flights. Maybe you should read up on exactly what ATC's role is, and the role of the VFR PIC even when in contact with ATC. There you go again, avoiding the question. You made assertions that ATC would not have prevented Lidles crash. Stop trying to change to subject being discussed and give some evidence of your claim. I never made any suggestion it was a suicide so I would be grateful if you would refrain from making that claim. I am a certifacted pilot and am fully aware of ATCs role concerning VFR flights. I am also aware of ATCs responsibilities concerning VFR and IFR aircraft in their airspace. You make it sound as if VFR aircraft in controlled airspace can just fly around wherever and however they wish but we both know that's not the case, don't we? Now, back to a simple question. If your point wasn't that ATC would not have prevented Lidle's crash, then just what was your point?

Chicago's homicide rate has been decreasing faster than Dallas's or Houston's. Take a look. That's a start, but there needs to be more depth to the study. It needs a bigger n to be valid. Chicago has some 2M residents - how large a sample do you need? Ya' need more cities, silly, not more residents. Well, I gave you the most recent data for IL vs TX, and IL had lower homicide rate. There are lots of cities in IL and in TX. I gave you the most recent data for all NO CARRY states vs the rest, and the NO CARRY states have lower rates. NYC and Chicago have lower rates than Dallas and Houston. Dallas and Houston feature in the "Most Dangerous Large Cities list, Chicago and NYC do not. Homicide rates in Chicago and NYC have been declining faster than in Houston or Dallas. You guys keep thrashing around trying to prove your point, but YOU DON'T HAVE A POINT. You gave data for one year. Data for one of the few years that backs up your assertion. Data for only one year, a year chosen specifically to back up a claim, don't mean squat. You should know that.

Is an elected Judge subject to a recall election? This little tantrum of his would almost ceratinly ensure he would lose.

I think I like that Judge.

How many millions of aircraft have flown in and out of NY under ATC? And they had ,what, one hit a building that wasn't a a deliberate act? Yeah...you're right. ATC in NY sucks. They should just fire 'em all. I don't know why you insist on MISSING the point. ATC contact will NOT prevent planes from hitting buildings. By quoting the NTSB story and it's recommendations in your post, followed by a sarcastic comment, you make the assertion that ATC would not have been able to do anything to prevent Lidle's crash. Is that not the point you were trying to make? How do you rationalize that assumption? Do you have any kind of evidence to show that Lidle would have crashed even if he had been under the watchfull eye of ATC? Of course ATC won't prevent a plane from hitting a building if the pilot is so inclined. ATC is there to help prevent accidents. So why the smart-ass remark? Do you feel ATC is worthless on not needed?

How many millions of aircraft have flown in and out of NY under ATC? And they had ,what, one hit a building that wasn't a a deliberate act? Yeah...you're right. ATC in NY sucks. They should just fire 'em all.

As I stated, the sarcasm in the original post implies that somehow ATC had a hand in those accidents and that Lidle would have crashed even if he had been in contact and under ATC supervision. If Lidle had been flying under ATC then he would have needed a clearance to initiate his turn. One can argue that the controllers would have seen his position over the center of the river and denied his request, instead giving a new heading to move him closer to shore so he could complete the turn in a safe manner. As a matter of fact, they may warn about the buildings. It is common for ATC to advise of obstacles such as buildings, towers, terrain, etc. just to be sure the pilot is aware. Negative, I've been ask to turn into a mountain by ATC. I (politely) declined. The pilot is the first to arrive at the crash site, not the controller. What part are you claiming is wrong? Obstacle avoidance is not given by ATC to VFR flights except when workload and controller interest allow. Requiring ATC clearance for a VFR flight does not ensure obstacle avoidance. ATC contact does not eliminate pilot error. ATC contact does not eliminate hijackings or suicides. The NTSB recommendation is pointless. Pointless only if you think that no assistance at all would ever be given to any VFR pilot. My experience is that ATC was always helpful even when busy. No, ATC doesn't ensure obstacle avoidance. But some help is better than none. To say ATC would not have prevented Lidle's accident is as irresponsible as to say it would have. Suicides and hijackings? It's a pretty safe bet Lidle's death was neither. How would ATC 's telling Lidle that there were buildings on Manhattan have prevented his accident. It was good VFR, he could already SEE the buildings. The crash wasn't caused by failure to see the building, it was caused by plain old fashioned bad flying, something that no controller can help you with. The 9/11 building crashes were caused by hijackings, something no controller can help you with. The 2002 building crash in Tampa was a suicide, something that no controller can help you with. I never claimed ATC would have prevented it. YOU made the implication that ATC would have been useless in preventing it. Of course it was a result of poor flying. But I contend that if he had been flying under ATC they would have had his position on radar, seen he was too close to the buildings to atempt a turn in that direction with the winds that day, and could have directed him through a safer sequence. That is, of course, a hypothetical situation that may or may not have played out. But one thing is for sure: Lidle wasn't afforded that option that may have prevented his accident.

As I stated, the sarcasm in the original post implies that somehow ATC had a hand in those accidents and that Lidle would have crashed even if he had been in contact and under ATC supervision. If Lidle had been flying under ATC then he would have needed a clearance to initiate his turn. One can argue that the controllers would have seen his position over the center of the river and denied his request, instead giving a new heading to move him closer to shore so he could complete the turn in a safe manner. As a matter of fact, they may warn about the buildings. It is common for ATC to advise of obstacles such as buildings, towers, terrain, etc. just to be sure the pilot is aware. Negative, I've been ask to turn into a mountain by ATC. I (politely) declined. The pilot is the first to arrive at the crash site, not the controller. What part are you claiming is wrong? Obstacle avoidance is not given by ATC to VFR flights except when workload and controller interest allow. Requiring ATC clearance for a VFR flight does not ensure obstacle avoidance. ATC contact does not eliminate pilot error. ATC contact does not eliminate hijackings or suicides. The NTSB recommendation is pointless. Pointless only if you think that no assistance at all would ever be given to any VFR pilot. My experience is that ATC was always helpful even when busy. No, ATC doesn't ensure obstacle avoidance. But some help is better than none. To say ATC would not have prevented Lidle's accident is as irresponsible as to say it would have. Suicides and hijackings? It's a pretty safe bet Lidle's death was neither.

Actually, the best series ever was the one immediately preceding that one...the 5 game set against the Yankees. For those of us who had suffered long, we finally had our payoff. Trailing the Angels by 13 games in August, the M's closed out the season with a 25-11 run to force a one game do-or-die playoff that included an in-the-park grand slam by Luis Sojo. They then dropped the first two against the NYY, despite battling 15 innings in game 2 (finished by a Leyritz homer...the same guy who'd threatened earlier in the season to have his homies waiting outside the stadium to kick Randy Johnson's ass). They were looking done. They came back to win three in a row, all at home. Randy and Black Jack McDowell started game 3, then both came in as relievers in game 5, which was started by David Cone...catch that? Three Cy Youngs pitched in Game 5, two of them on two days rest. I and several of my friends can give you the final call by Dave Niehaus in the 11th inning, and the shot of Junior under the pile at homeplate was one of the best sport pictures I've seen. For those of you who can hear Dave's voice in your head...the call.

Cabbage. Nice fresh cabbage.

As I stated, the sarcasm in the original post implies that somehow ATC had a hand in those accidents and that Lidle would have crashed even if he had been in contact and under ATC supervision. If Lidle had been flying under ATC then he would have needed a clearance to initiate his turn. One can argue that the controllers would have seen his position over the center of the river and denied his request, instead giving a new heading to move him closer to shore so he could complete the turn in a safe manner. As a matter of fact, they may warn about the buildings. It is common for ATC to advise of obstacles such as buildings, towers, terrain, etc. just to be sure the pilot is aware. Negative, I've been ask to turn into a mountain by ATC. I (politely) declined. The pilot is the first to arrive at the crash site, not the controller. What part are you claiming is wrong?

What? Stats from only one year? I would expect a scientist to give a much broader, thus more representative, time span. Or is '05 the only year that shows what you want to show? YOU are at liberty to do YOUR OWN RESEARCH to make any point you wish to make. Just use real data, not the NRA's propaganda. That "propaganda", as you call it, has sources listed. It is real data taken from reliable sources including thsoe you wanted. The sources are listed in the event someone, such as yourself, doesn't trust what the NRA put on their website. You are free to check the accuracy of the figures. If you don't want to believe what is on NRAILA site, and are too lazy to check to sources they gave, then I don't know what to tell you. I guess you're just going to believe what you want regardless of the facts.

Me too! I wonder how George feels having the highest payroll in baseball, yet his team has one of the worst records?

Who said "because of". A little more care in your reading is called for. Please post actual FBI data comparing no carry states with the others, not NRA propaganda. I don't post data from Brady sites. Your statement specifically implies it was the fault of ATC. In any case, where are all the incidents? You wanted FBI data, I posted FBI data. Whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you. But then, you have a perfect track record of not admitting when you are wrong. No reason to think you will do any different regarding the crime stats or ATC. You posted NRA's version of FBI data. NOT EXACTLY the same thing. You misread the ATC thread - just like pounds as units of mass, I guess 2005 data from the FBI: Homicide rate per 100,000 in "NO CARRY" states - 4.85 Homicide rate per 100,000 in USA overall - 5.6 Violent crime rate per 100,000 in NO CARRY states - 436 Violent crime rate per 100,000 USA overall - 469 NO CARRY states as defined by packing.org - a pro-gun web site. What? Stats from only one year? I would expect a scientist to give a much broader, thus more representative, time span. Or is '05 the only year that shows what you want to show?

As I stated, the sarcasm in the original post implies that somehow ATC had a hand in those accidents and that Lidle would have crashed even if he had been in contact and under ATC supervision. If Lidle had been flying under ATC then he would have needed a clearance to initiate his turn. One can argue that the controllers would have seen his position over the center of the river and denied his request, instead giving a new heading to move him closer to shore so he could complete the turn in a safe manner. As a matter of fact, they may warn about the buildings. It is common for ATC to advise of obstacles such as buildings, towers, terrain, etc. just to be sure the pilot is aware.

I seem to recall Kallend going back and admitting he was wrong.... once. I guess he finally realized his diversions weren't working. Perfect track record? I say Nay! My bad. I should know nobody here, least of all myself, is perfect.

Sexon always hit pretty well when he was with the Indians. What'd you guys do to him?? Spezzio hit with his former team too. Something about the NW. Were you a Mariners fan in '95 when they played the Indians in the ALCS? Best series I've ever watched! The players from those two teams could have their own All-Star game.

Four airliners took off on 9/11/2001, each of them in contact with ATC. Did that contact with ATC prevent 3 of them from hitting buildings? NO. Contact with ATC is irrelevant. Sometimes everything has to be spelled out for people around here. Your implication, through sarcasm, is that it was the fault of ATC. You imply that even if Lidle had been in touch with controllers he still would have crashed. What I'm asking for is some kind of logic that backs that up, not the typical sarcastic BS you play with. Millions of aircraft fly under the watch of ATC every year. How many of them fly into buildings? How many would if we didn't have ATC? Sometimes people post junk statements and then run when asked to show evidence.