maadmax

First off, we are social animal with an evolutionary imperative to co-operate, secondly we are intelligent enough to develop our own moral philosophy. Can you honestly tell me you'd be out there doing whatever the hell you wanted no matter who you hurt if it wasn't for a belief in God? If that's actually true then you might well be a sociopathic bastard. You might want to get that checked out. To review what social animals are capable just look back in history 60 years and thank somebody that you are not writing your statement in German. _____________________________________ _____________________________________ I'd also like to see you explain why atheists make up such a low percentage of the prison population. If what you say has even a shred of truth to it then atheists should be stacked up to the ceilings. Luckily, of course, you are actually talking complete crap *** Probably for the same reason it is difficult to find an atheist in a fox hole. ______________________________________

But if you call that faith, then absolutely everybody has faith in the infinite number of discovered or undiscoverd, possible or impossible things that either do or don't exist. Unicorns, leprechauns, fairies, flying spaghetti monsters, loch ness monsters, bigfoot, chupacubras, klingons, robotic killing sheep, zombie snails with laser eyes, ambrosia, hydra, medusa, flying teapot pixies, all these things and absolutely everything in the universe ever (real or imaginary), are things you have faith in one way or the other. Your definition is so wide, it is utterly and mind bogglingly pointless. No, you have a wide view of things. My view is simply God exists, and we are created to interact with Him. __________________________________

What evidence is there that a god exists? Why should one make the assumption that there is a god without any basis? It is much more logical for scientists to assume there is no god until there is evidence to suggest such a supernatural being exists .Quote For me, the evidence is everywhere, in everything I see and touch. I am immersed in God,s creation and I am a part of it. ______________________________________

>If there is no moral authority , why choose moral behavior when amoral > behavior would better serve our species survival and evolution. Are you really saying that you would be more likely to be a murderer and a thief, and engage in all sorts of immoral behavior, if you didn't fear divine punishment? Easy, we live in a culture heavily influenced by Jewish and Christian values. Just read the constitution and examine the lives of some of its authors _________________________________________

Surely , you can do better than that. New species are still being discovered, such as a new species of jungle rat in Madagascar. But sadly, no record of a unicorn has been discovered in either the paleontological or taxonomical records. _______________________________________

So? What's wrong with that?*** _____________________________________ Everything!!!! If that were true, then the strong would be justified in redirecting all available resources for their consumption and use in propagation. The weak and genetically inferior would be useless and therefore terminated without prejudice. To mention only a few reasons. If there is no moral authority , why choose moral behavior when amoral behavior would better serve our species survival and evolution. As it stands now we are destroying our planet to keep all of these inferior people alive. ________________________________________

Really? How so? Well, to restate the obvious. You have constructed your reality on the premise that there is no God. All of us have access to a small amount of limited information on how some physical processes occur, nothing more. Yet as far as you are concerned you have extrapolated this knowledge into a factual realization that God does not exist. Since you have no proof of the absence of God, the evidence to support this fact is derived from your hope that you have correctly extrapolated the few facts that you possess. The evidence that God doesn't exist for you, is based on your faith in these conclusions. _________________________________________

Why does the universe need to mean anything? Meaningless - I'd say so, but I might not be thinking about it the same way as you. Does a rock mean anything? Does the sea mean anything? Does Omicron Perseii 8 mean anything? As for significance, that's purely in the eye of the beholder, and as an inhabitant of the universe it's pretty significant to me. True enough, but with out a big picture for all of these little pieces to fit into it seem a bit pointless. And since that conclusion is no more conclusive than one that points to a universe with purpose, I will spend my time searching for a meaning. _________________________________

Evidence based on faith? That's just another way of saying you just make it up as you go along. What a load. Maybe so, but everyone does it. And from reading your posts, you are no exception.

All joking aside. Don titled this perfectly. The people you meet in this sport. Anyone who ever visits a drop zone knows that it takes a lot more than just a drop zone staff to get the job done. Every drop zone has people who naturally pick up the void. Don and Jean are those people. He is the first out in the field to shag a tandem. He is the first to jump in his pick up and get someone who went long on a spot, or a cut away. Jean is the first one to help out organizing stuff and lending a helping hand. As much as it sucked to break my heel, it proves to me what a great group of people are in this sport. *** I heartily agree. Don and Jean get my vote for the Good Samaritan Award. They seem to enjoy helping people almost more than skydiving.

And yet the odds of an entity powerful and smart enough to have created a universe out of nothing while simultaneously farting himslf into existence are a dead cert. Not really. But when one delves into areas of the unknown, evidence based on faith is the only source of information you have to construct that part of your reality. And as is very obvious by this thread, preconceived viewpoints definitely shape where one places their faith.

Ah, but that's not how it works. No process imaginable can create, in one tornado, a 747 (or a human being.) But imagine the same tornado hitting the same junkyard a million times in a row. And further imagine that just one time, it leaves a landing gear standing on its tires. Now it can roll back and forth. And from an evolutionary point of view, that's all it takes to start the process - one functioning bit. That is to far fetched. With out the need to support a predetermined theory, that explanation of creation is difficult to accept. Evolution is indeed a creative force, but you are giving it way to much credit. __________________________________

BWAHAHAHA!!!! I've heard that before, and it STILL cracks me up. :) linz Please, by all means shine a little of your light of understanding into my humble corner and show me the truth of what really happened. And while you are at it explain what it all means. Or does the omnipotent power of cosmic chance function only to produce a mindless, meaningless, realm of no significance? _______________________________________

I quoted your entire response so as to maintain the context. Would you clarify the highlighted section above? Do you mean "acceptable" to you through your religious worldview? Or do you mean "acceptable" as an absolute? VR/Marg As a person who values logic over religious superstition, I feel the probability of everything turning out like it has is to extreme to have happened by " chance occurrence". To steal an analogy it would be odds similar to a tornado going through a junk yard and instead of leaving a bigger mess than before it came, it instead left a completely assembled 747 jetliner. __________________________________________

99.999% of the planet Earth has never been directly observed at all. *** If we were talking about the same thing your point would be valid. I am not referring to things that are unobserved, I am referring to things that are unknown. ____________________________________

My pyramid analogy is in reference to how ordered states become disordered without the input of energy(entropy). I welcome evidence, but I keep my mind open to logical possibilities when all of the evidence has not been discovered . To tell you the truth, how or if God created the universe is just a side note compared to the importance of how He meets the personal needs of my spiritual life. _________________________________________

When we look at the universe, we see....well, the universe but, unlike the pyramids, no builder. So, being capable of reasoning, we look for how it came to be. Some of us, though, just decide that it's magic and leave it at that. Just because you understand the process of how some things came about, how does that cancel out a designer? 95% of the matter and energy of the universe is still unknown and undescribed. We have little idea of the basic forces that make up the universe, such as the Higgs boson, gravity etc. How can you be so sure about what reality is or isn't, other than what you have created.

"We don't know how the first organisms formed. But basic hydrocarbons and amino can be formed in a primordial atmosphere, and we know that RNA can spontaneously replicate, consume energy and evolve in the proper conditions. We know that an iron sulfide metabolism can start from basic chemicals and synthesize oligomers, polymers, dipeptides and tripeptides. Scientists are currently working on explanations as to how these steps all worked together to produce the first proto-organisms." ____________________________________________ These explanations are adequate if you already have a conclusion in mind and need to arrange facts to support it. Until scientists find the explanation, they are working on an unproven hypothesis. Using this to contradict Intelligent Design is not acceptable. As far as theories go, they are on equal footing as to which one is actually correct. If you look at the pyramids, one fact is intuitive, they had a creator and builder, as with the universe. _______________________________________

It is more scientifically valid. And since it was arrived at via the scientific method (i.e. hypothesis, experimentation, verification) it is taught in science class. Intelligent design/creationism, since they were arrived at by a completely different manner (oral tradition, biblical authors, scholars arguing over what God really meant, political angling to get God into school) it gets taught in religion class. I am a firm believer in the scientific method and thank God for it. What I am talking about is the mammoth absence of scientific verification concerning the scientific hypothesis and experimentation relating to the transformation of aeromatic hydrocarbons into living, energy consuming, reproducing ,evolving entities. At our current level of scientific enlightenment, saying "chance occurrence" is a reasonable scientific explanation for the origins of life is no different than saying "God did it". And as we all know faith based comments have no place in the class room. ______________________________________

Can you provide the specific statistical analysis that you did to support your claim? I'm curious to see the math, thanks. VR/Marg I can not put my hands on the particular articles I have read concerning the probability of the universe turning out to be pro-life. But the math is easy. Just multiply the probabilities of all the events that have occurred from the big bang until Homosapien sapiens took their first steps. If the answer is not astronomical I bet it is close. _______________________________________

[ No argument there. As you point out, though, it is a religious perspective, not a scientific one. There is no problem at all teaching creationism in a religion class, and indeed a good religion class would cover the Christian creationism myth, the Norse myth, the Egyptian myth, the various Native American myths etc and compare and contrast them. ___________________________________ I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem holding the "scientific orgins" myth as some how more true than the Intelligent Design explanation. They all require faith. ____________________________________

Sweet do you have any evidence for that (and no some christian science magazine does not count)? As far as I know the chances are actually really good. That's also why it is very possible that there are or at least were or will be (timing is pretty crucial when we are talking about 7 billion years) other life forms in the universe. I don't read Christian magazines. The latest estimate for the age of the universe is 13.73 billion years. What I am referring to is the amazing laws of physics (particle, classical, general relativity, quantum dynamics), chemistry(organic/inorganic) physiology, genetics, geology, cosmology, climatology, oceanography, ecology, etc all which were necessary in their exact parameters for life to begin and exist. ________________________________

This is exactly as it should be. ID is not a competing scientific theory to evolutionary biology - it is not even a scientific theory. ______________________________________ So you say. Intelligent Design has no problem with evolutionary biology, it is obviously a very intelligent way God has chosen to maintain His creation. As far as the origins of life, the claim made by evolutionary biology of " chance occurrence" defies statistical possibility and requires as much faith as saying God did it. __________________________________

QuoteI don't understand why anyone would be angry over what happened several hundred years ago. Can't change the past by getting mad at it. Quite a lot of the shit that Big Religion tries to pull in the modern world pisses me off though _____________________________________ For once I agree with you. Although I am more saddened than angry at the damage caused by religions. The Bible is very clear that many would come and corrupt the message presented there. I have often wondered what Jesus would say about many of the Christian religions in existence today. But the error of some does not negate the Truth. _____________________________________

I would think a much more productive solution to past wrongs would be accomplished by a spirit of forgiveness rather than anger. When understanding replaces ignorance the wrongs will cease to occur. Anger just seems to fuel ignorance. ________________________