DSE

Quite a list, Chuck! Your input was quite valuable as we put together some of the information and tried different things. Robi has had unintentional landings; he too had some good scenarios to set up/share. Thank you for being so willing to share information based on practical experience.

Very cool starting to attempt docks so early on! You'll become a better flyer faster if you work on this sort of thing. Thanks for sharing.

Helmets generally float, unless they are a camera helmet that is. I would definitely keep a ProTec on. I would shuck any of the other two I own though. This was my conclusion too, Chuck. Lob and I had discussed this prior to the jumps. T'is why I wore the ProTec. I have an old Bonehead PimpDaddy that I wore for one jump; it stayed buoyant for the period I was in the water, but it would have gotten waterlogged after 30 mins, IMO. The Protec was in the water for several hours. A Gath would also float for a long long time. As a curiosity, you and Scott (Robi too) seem to have a lot of experience; how many wingsuit landings have you guys all done into water and what were the circumstances that put you into the situation?

Good information, thanks for sharing. Most of what you posted was discussed/brought up by Chuck, Robi, and a few others prior to and after these jumps. I was really disappointed that the waves in Waimea grew too large for practical risks in experimenting with wingsuits in the ocean. Some of what you suggest is diametric to what people who have experienced big waves and swells have had to say, but I'd like to experience the answer for myself rather than making a theoretical statement. In the end, it boils down to getting out of your suit as much as possible before entering the water. If you can't, exiting the suit while on your back (not survival floating) will give you a huge boost in getting out. The reserve/container isn't a PFD any more than a seat cushion in an aircraft is, yet for purposes of survival, it would be foolish to abandon it in favor of survival floating. Attempting a survival float while still wearing the wingsuit is almost assuredly going to drown you. If you're floating on the container for longer than 30 mins...I'd recommend finding a new DZ in favor of one that won't make you sink or swim.

Could you expound on this a little more? Taken literally, I can't agree with you. I expect the DZ to owe me more than a plane ticket, I expect the DZ to foster an environment of safety for their own benefit as well as my own.

Read Ray's letter to the editor in this month's Parachutist. A person with zero skydives should be allowed to jump a wingsuit in his view. The fact that our discipline's fatality and/or incident ratio is going up very fast seems to be lost on some. It isn't just jump numbers. It's training, it's talking amongst ourselves, it's sharing information, it's working as a community to further our knowledge and knowledge base from our experiences. And our experiences tell us that people need some real experience (that they *might* be lucky enough to gain inside of 200 jumps) before flying a wingsuit. I have seen several people with 5000+ jumps lose their bearings and stability in a wingsuit. Yet one former member of the BOD seems to think that someone with no skydives should be able to fly a wingsuit.

I agree with the point that cutting away on the newer PF suits is similar to unzipping. I'm not sure that it's any more or less easy. I did use the cutaways on the Aerobat and Phantom, of course neither had any value. Although I did not try it, I'm 99% positive that one couldn't pull their arms out of the new Tony sleeves. One thing that is _immediately_ obvious is that the fabric clings to the body as soon as its wet. It's a bear getting out of any nylon. I deliberately didn't wear shoes, cuz I only had one pair with me and I didn't want them in the water all day. I always wear swimming trunks. I did some jumps with head and eyewear, some without to see how it affected things. I did not wear a shirt, which would have slowed things up a bit, as would pants. I jump every single day exiting over a fairly large body of water. Never once have I worn a flotation device. Very few do. In fact, between my jumps over the Great Salt Lake, Lake Elsinore, and Skydive Hawaii, most of my jumps are exiting over large bodies of water. How many people wore flotation devices on the Elsinore bigways? Zero? How many wear flotation devices flying over Hawaii? Zero (not including AFF students). I'm merely curious as to "what if" and am willing to go to lengths to find the answers. I have two training DVDs with Justin Shorb and Flock U; it would be terribly easy (and terribly wrong) for me to respond to a question to which I had the answer with "buy my DVD if you want to know." I'm bothered to see this thread devolve into a pissing match and another "you don't know what you don't know" thread. I asked a question, the answer to which I was not satisfied with, so I sought my own answers through my own experiences. I would never suggest I was capable of thinking out all possible scenarios. There is no way anyone could. I did seek advice from people I know are experienced and willing to share their knowledge. I guess you could call them "mentors." The information is certainly worth at least as much as anyone paid to receive it. If it's really that meaningless to you, consider how much you paid to observe and consider it.

Simon, I did do a jump with a newer TS as well, and the correct answer is to take the zippers to the calf vs to the waist/chest that you'd normally zip to. This will allow you to get your feet out of the system much more quickly. Chuck's comments about the wing cutaways are spot-on. Cutting your wings away not only doesn't help; it may hinder you signficantly. Instead of having arms free, what you then have is two arms covered in weighted material. Water is neutral until you start throwing it around, then it wants to sink you. Hopefully, no one will ever be going into the water zipped up. It's no where near easy to get even an unzipped suit off. In the event of an ocean landing, you'll want to be far enough off-shore that the waves aren't pushing you down and reducing your ability to control the suit. [edit]Kallend, I did several jumps both ways. The helmet makes it more difficult to throw your head back, but I think losing the helmet should be a bottom level priority. Depending on the helmet, it too is buoyant (for at least a while). Order of priority in or out of the air, IMO: -Get out of armwings/zips -Unthread Cheststrap -Unzip legs -Release legstraps -Get out/away from the suit -While keeping clear of lines, stay with rig. It floats (assuming reserve hasn't been deployed). There is a 5kt current pool not far from here but they wouldn't let me use it during the day and it's dim lighting at night. I'll re-do most of these tests in the current pool if I can bribe them to let me do them in daylight. Glad some of you find this info useful.

in light of the recent discussion, I chose to go out and do some actual "jumps", since the majority of the discussions out there seem to be based on theory vs practical experience. Robi, Chuck Blue both had some good input that didn't make it into this short video clip. It's hopefully some food for thought, it's not meant to be much more than that. Yes, different suits will respond differently. Some have thick foam in them, others don't. My experiences showed the foam hinders vs helps, but YMMV. http://www.vimeo.com/11559773

Blossom (Blawesome), Joe, Paulo, Bud, Byron, John, all joined the flock this weekend in Hawaii. We had Nicole and Chris set to go, but the clouds wouldn't permit them to jump. Blossom went on to do a boatload of jumps and led the submitted Hawaii state record formation because Purple Mike went scubadiving and was full of gas. E' komo mai to the flock, gang!

Why do you have a reserve? Because 99% of the time your main works.... There is that "one chance." Out of a hundred and one tries, things will work 100 times. I saw a very experienced skydiver nearly land at sea, and the smart money says "land way away from the reefs" which means you're in deeper water. Why enter the water with everything zipped? Because I'd like to know more, and because I do believe there are times when people might find themselves landing zipped up. Is it "needed?" On the general whole, probably not. Aren't you curious about landing in water? What are the best procedures to follow? What potential problems might arise? One thing I can tell you for certain; the prevailing wisdom about water landings is 100% wrong in one aspect, and I'm wondering what else we'll discover is not accurate. We tested beginner and high performance suits. Same results with both suits in that regard. If I can get more input, especially from those that have talked about water landings without floatation devices, or those that have experienced water landings without flotation devices, I'd like to throw their opinions into the mix and try a variety of things while we're playing with this topic in a controlled environment. Got any suggestions?

Flotation devices may not be an option, or may not be part of the discussion. Since you've already written the information down in your latest edition, I'd really appreciate hearing your take on what should be done. Sounds like you've got some real experience jumping into water with a zipped (or unzipped) suit?

FWIW, we spent the better part of the afternoon doing multiple "jumps" into water wearing expert level and student level suits, both fully zipped and unzipped. We learned a LOT from both the underwater and above water footage, plus the experience itself. I've read a few recommendations on what to do, and wanted to try them out for myself, so we took a crew of 5 people to an 8' deep pool, rig and canopy. The training you received for your B license (assuming you actually did get in the water) is more or less useless, IMO, when it comes to a wingsuit. Al that said, I'm still curious what folks feel is the best practice. If anything comes up that is "new" information, I'd like to put it to the test. It is not at all easy getting out of even an unzipped suit, especially larger airlocked suits.

you're in an emergency situation. You land in water with everything zipped up. What do you do, and in what order? Second scenario; You're able to unzip everything. What do you do first?

FWIW, your passion isn't measured in jump numbers, but rather in your enthusiasm and in how much you make each jump count in your own mental logbook. Jumping is supposed to be about having fun. With some, it becomes a serious imbalance in their lives (me, for example) but that doesn't mean I'm any more passionate than you are, it merely means I approach it from a different lifestyle. Enjoy your jumps. Don't let anyone diminish your enthusiasm or desire simply because you're not rackin' up the numbers like they did/are. It's truly all about you, how the experiences feel to you, and like Twardo said...you savor the flavor longer when it's not 10-15 jumps a day on the weekends. Have fun. That's what skydiving is supposed to be about, no?

Fixed it fer ya. And at 500 jumps with an instructor, some aren't ready/able to manage a wingsuit.

These are the most advanced "consumer" type I've seen yet. Very cool, thanks for the point.

Well said. Just because an instructor can teach something very well does doesn't mean the instructor can be well-matched to every student. Some students require a unique communication skill set that not every instructor may possess. A good instructor will turn that student over to someone else for their assessment. Some students simply cannot be taught the skills they need for either physical, mental, or motivational reasons.

Last week, watched a beginning swooper downwind and biff hard. Myself and one other had a word with him. He explained that the winds were wonky near the pond. Yesterday in Hawaii, same beginning swooper didn't want to land too far away from the LZ on a short spot, so he downwinded it, only to find that the "grass" was over concrete. He wasn't seriously injured, just bloody hands, knees, thigh, feet and damage to someone else' jumpsuit. When the S&TA talked to him, he insisted "I coulda landed it fine if there wasn't concrete under there. I just didn't know. I couldn't slide my feet." Unfamiliar DZ, unfamiliar landing area, low jump numbers, 15kt winds, and still he doesn't see the error. Long winded "not likely."

A new plug for Vegas Pro is available. Fun for titles and exit shots. Disclaimer; I am the designer of this application. I needed something to salvage those botched exits. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIhW_smoknQ

HD is always UFF (Upper Field First). If it's going to the web, i generally let Vegas manage the deinterlacing. The rule for deinterlacing is this: Hi speed/high motion; deinterlace with Interpolative Low speed/Motion; deinterlace via Blend Skydiving is not high speed/motion in most instances because the camera is relative to the action. Gaussian blur (default) is generally best unless you're animating still frames, then Box is better. HDV 1080 60i means the output shall be 1440 x 1080 @60 half frames (interlaced) per second. NTSC DV means it will be 720 x 480 @60 half frames (interlaced) per second. Make sense?

I have the book, didn't see any references to it however. Chuck was working with PDG with regards to this design at the time of Patrick's death. The way it's designed, it's relatively easy to make some assumptions (possibly incorrect) about how he was trying to attach the suit to the rig. Gotta love the warning label.

This suit has an interesting history, as well as a unique design. We'll see how she flies.

OK...see you in two weeks

In the air, the role of the coach is to set the fall rate, provide a solid/stable base for the student, and observe student actions and provide hand signals if needed, as well as set an example for the student. -Assess skill levels -Review prior training -Train -Debrief (compare goals set prior to the jump with the results/achievements of the jump).