Lucky...

Hold the guy until cops get there. Simple really. Depending upon the state, but illegal detention could be the crime here too. Usually kidnapping requires moving the victim a few feet. You can't always hold the suspect for cops, unless you are a cop.

It just reeks of irony; these guys died and sacrificed for liberty.....now they commit assault when people excercize those liberties.

Yep. He stuck his foot in deep on that one, and is scrambling for cover. Ya jumped in a little quick to cheerlead there, as if you waited you would see Bill brought in during post 36.

You were there on page 3, dude. Right after you switched from 'Tax the rich just to bring them down' to healthcare. I was there on page 3..... what does that mean?

How do you arrive at that understanding? I think most 3rd world countries are toilets due to them being corrupt, exclusive, classist....wait, I'm describing the US. You act as if I'm a young kid. I'm probably your age and I was in and out of the military after going around part of the world by age 21. I think yiour ad hominem of me being naive is GROSSLY incorrerct. Also, the govs of these countries are toilets, not tejh people. No I'm not, remember the examples given? They were far more extreme than that. People with pre-existings that cannot get coverage, they have to wait until they are sick to be seen, etc....then throw in unemployment and you have obscene. I recall in a recent thread you wrote to let the people choose their coverage to incl gov option, now it seems you're saying down with gov option. Are you just having fun here?

So sorry, it was Bill in post #36 he wrote: No, it's not. A system where someone will always take care of you is not obscene. You may find it so; that's fine. If you ever get to visit sub-Saharan Africa you may change your mind. So if you can't get your facts straight, just move along. Oh, so first I compared the US system to 3rd world countries and now someone else brought it up? You're making your typical sense. And I don't get upset, I like it as it really brings home how low the US system is that we have to go to the worst to flatter the US system. I stated: Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced. In response to you saying: We have that. Government housing, food stamps, laws preventing being turned away at hospitals, unemployment benefits, etc. The truth is you don't want a safety net. You want the baseline raised no matter what the cost. That was way after Bill brought it in. So instead of focusing onthis unimportant issue of who wrote it forst, even tho Bill did, let's focus on the issue of our vast resource and obscene exclusive distribution. Awww, how special, calling the real Americans the Patriots. Another funny conservative tactic. As one of the richest countries in the world, we s/b waaaay up there in HC, so even if we're in the middle that's no good. But we are 37th due to the cost and unavailability/exclusivity. So if you want to brag our system as great, go for it; we have the technology, just our corporate greed gets in the way.

So with that logic then US Capitalism is also going dead and Chinese Communism is the best. http://financialranks.com/?p=33

I see the problem here and it's actually kind of funny... Here's the chain of posts if you put them back in context... I've posted that data several times, I then post: THE CLASSES ARE SPEADING EVEN MORE, SO APPARENTLY THE TAX RATES ARE TOO LENIENT. So you think taxation should be so high as to prevent people from spending? Hate to break it to you, but consumer spending counts for 70% of GDP. So you want to tax people so they stop spending and kill the LARGEST driver of the economy? That's why it could be income tax, capital gains tax (applies to sellers) and many other taxes. Let's not oversimplify the argument to sales tax. And the rich are so sick rich that it will just be an irritant, it won't diussuade spending; did it in the CLinton era? Lucky... was concerned about the classes "SPEADING" which Ron interpreted to mean "spending" and clearly replied as such. Lucky... is apparently paying so little attention to what anyone is writing in this thread that he just went on arguing to defend a point he didn't even know he was trying to make. It reminds me of the monty python sketch I came here for a good argument. No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument. An argument isn't just contradiction. It can be. No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. No it isn't. Are we so desperate that we're down to typos? Actually I don't think Ron interpreted that to mean spending. What people are doing is saying that HC will raise taxes, yet no one has shown me how. No one has shown me how this will cost them a dime either. And the best point made by others, the US is great as compared to Africa, parts of Asia and other lovely places. No argument, now let's compare us to like countries.

let's keep that racism out of the commentary here - it's about health care, not false elitism and, for that matter it would be - the US is a better continent than Africa Just as Africa is a continent, the US isn't.

Well then let's let our standards stand alone and quit bringing in the toilets of the world to make us look good. This is like comparing a mediocre football team to the Lion's to make your mediocre team look great. There again, trying to up the stanadard by bringing in the worst of the worst. Average western countries provide HC, let's adjudge the US by that standard.

I'm not, I have a great career that is sporadic. You wrote about people not buying if taxes were too high. No I didn't , I stated I want to raise taxes, esp on the rich, the last part is yours. As much as I love your editorial, the last chunk of history dosagrees. Show me a time in the last several decades where federal taxes were raised and the economy suffered. Generalizing that conservatives often have an all or nothing approach is not an ad hominem, it's not a character attck in leiu of a substantive argument. There is no way for you to pay for my anything. You are still unable to create a link between taxation and spending. Wow, that was brilliance. How did you come up with that? I asked for you to make the connection between uni-care and your wallet and you give me this disseratation. Wow, I won't be able to digest that at once. That's your special interpretation. If you became disabled, you would scream the loudest.

Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced. Have you EVER been to a 3rd world country? You have no idea what the baseline is. Not a clue. And you don't understand the definition of BASELINE. Baseline means a standard. For example, Spruce is a standard or baseline by which to measure other woods in acft. Spruce isn;t the best, just a high standard. I'm not saying HC s/b the high, we just need to draw a line by which measure what every American is guaranteed. 3rd world countries have bare-bottom benefits or none at all, that's not the same as baseline. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baseline 4. a basic standard or level; guideline: to establish a baseline for future studies. 5. a specific value or values that can serve as a comparison or control. To repeat - you have no clue what goes on in the world if you think the US baseline for health care or standard of living is anything like the 3rd world. The poor here are the middle class there on those standards. Our's have cell phones and cable TV. Their's are happy when they have 4 walls and a roof. And really, that's the problem. The poor in America want everything that the more successful have, and they want us to pay for it. \ Then I'll repeat, you don't know what a baseline is. It can be from a low standard to a high standard. So let's compare the US to toilets of the world so we can ignore real countries like Scandinavian countries, so theat we don't look as bad. Quit finding the ugliest shithole with which to make teh US look good, it really has an opposite effect.

Which actions; be specific. More ambiguity? Are you affraid to specify which things I say, which countries, how they failed, etc? Come on, cite my ideas, specific countries that tried it when and the outcome. As for the baseline, you set that and demand gov spending if nec meets that, you're working this backwards saying the cuts, etc won't meet the baseline; diff deal. Wow! You didn't read the article at all did you? Just ignore the facts...... I did, I'm asking you what your point is. You made a lot of generalizations, which assertions, which countries? Make a point, don't rely on the author; if I wanted a debate with them I would write them. I WILL NEVER GET A PERSON TO ESTABLISH A MAJOR FED TAX CUT THAT TURNED OUT WELL.

Thx for your valuable contribution to this issue.

Thankfully you know a baseline isn't a flat bottom measure, but a studied measure of basic need in this case to determine what is reasonable. True we could, and I agree that that isn't reasonable. When I say baseline, I mean a reasonable measure of what a person should receive to ensure basic HC needs. I defined baseline and said Spruce was a baseline for wood on acft. It's one of teh best, but not the best, so we know what baseline means, not everyone does. Yes, we all pay for it indirectly thru taxes, but again, very indirectly. And I've never said anything but reasonable. It's like in the law, the Reasonale Man Standard; what would a reasonable person do? What would be reasonable care for all people. And then if you want more you can buy it.

What exists, a baseline? Sure, it exists, a baseline of zero coverage other than ER care and a bill that will keep you in the poor house. That's why it could be income tax, capital gains tax (applies to sellers) and many other taxes. Let's not oversimplify the argument to sales tax. And the rich are so sick rich that it will just be an irritant, it won't diussuade spending; did it in the CLinton era? Conservative thinking is often absolute, I didn't make absolute statements but you interpreted it that way; that's very typical. I don't really, actually I'm selling fun things off. Yes, I could get ins and lie about my shoulder. Are you never going to draw teh connecction between uni-care and out of your pocket? I guess not.

Classism - Capitalism; same thing - I agree. Right, if we were not an OBSCENE nation there would be a process in place where at any time he could get that fixed. So now on to ad hominem? I was in the military, went overseas. But I see your arguments circle around: Africa and parts of Asia suck, therefore we're good. (shhh, ignore Scandinavia, parts of W Europe). Claiming to beat your wife once a month isn't defensable by saying African husbands beat theirs daily. I've traveled a fair amount, esp young. Again, not a defense to carp on your people and then say others have it worse.

Ever heard of the depression of 1920? Probably not..... did you know the crash then was worse than the one that resulted in the "great depression". http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/connections_n2/great_depression.html Sure, didn't last long, but it was steep and short. No way to compare it to the GD IMO. Your own cite states: Never heard of it? That's not surprising - it didn't last long. The 20's were roaring, not greatly depressing. I think it was lesssignificant than the GD, esp since it was onset by WWI ending, a good thing, versus the GD. Which actions; be specific. More ambiguity? Are you affraid to specify which things I say, which countries, how they failed, etc? Come on, cite my ideas, specific countries that tried it when and the outcome. As for the baseline, you set that and demand gov spending if nec meets that, you're working this backwards saying the cuts, etc won't meet the baseline; diff deal.

Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced. Have you EVER been to a 3rd world country? You have no idea what the baseline is. Not a clue. And you don't understand the definition of BASELINE. Baseline means a standard. For example, Spruce is a standard or baseline by which to measure other woods in acft. Spruce isn;t the best, just a high standard. I'm not saying HC s/b the high, we just need to draw a line by which measure what every American is guaranteed. 3rd world countries have bare-bottom benefits or none at all, that's not the same as baseline. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baseline 4. a basic standard or level; guideline: to establish a baseline for future studies. 5. a specific value or values that can serve as a comparison or control.

what are you talking about? what point did i make that i'm not backing up? quote please. I've posted several times, even started a thread over it. Let's start anew: Tell me when a major federal tax cut has led to a great situation. IOW's, lowered unemp, raised the market, raised the GDP, turned a deficit into a surplus, curbed the debt increase, etc. Or Show me the opposite. A tax major fed tax incr that has led to disaster. when have i tried to make a point about any of that? You have thru inferrence. I'm not saying you're slacking, you love tax cuts, show me how they are so good for everyone.

Ah, I see, so justifying a system that provides for favorites based upon economic class? This semantic definition of OBSCENE is ridiculous. I think it's onscene what happened to your friend, you say it's not because it could be worse and cite Africa as a contrast. Instead of me reposting OBSCENE, which I could, let's just say the US medical system is classist and solely benefits the rich. Or we can revisit OBSCENE if we must. But I concede, the US is a better country than Africa.

This argument is going no where, I've stated that I want baseline care for everyone and you interpret it differently, let's defer the major issue. I've posted that data several times, I then post: THE CLASSES ARE SPEADING EVEN MORE, SO APPARENTLY THE TAX RATES ARE TOO LENIENT. I didn't state there is NO lcass mobility, but I understand that conservative interpretation works like binary code; 1 or 0. Yes or no. All or nothing. Again, binary. I didn;t say the US doesn't provide opportunity, I just claim that class mobility is largely a thing of the past. My teeth aren't really bad, I could use a cleaning tho. I need a 20k surgery tho, but I guess taht has to wait since I live in this glorious country.

And I do, I have pretty good teeth for my age. Not smoking/drinking /drugging helps a lot too. It's not at all free or comprehensive. ER's can triage non-emergencies to wait for everyone else or even turn you away if what you call an emergency is not one. If I need hand surgery, they can throw a cast on it and tell me to have a nce day, then bill me for $2k. The hand surgery never gets done. If you call that HC then I guess you can call me a world class swooper.

what are you talking about? what point did i make that i'm not backing up? quote please. I've posted several times, even started a thread over it. Let's start anew: Tell me when a major federal tax cut has led to a great situation. IOW's, lowered unemp, raised the market, raised the GDP, turned a deficit into a surplus, curbed the debt increase, etc. Or Show me the opposite. A tax major fed tax incr that has led to disaster. The (R)s always point to increases in tax collections following the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts. What they ALWAYS fail to mention is that when corrected to constant dollars (by taking account of inflation) and for population growth, all of these "increases" disappear. The Reagan cuts led overall to a real revenue shortfall of about $87B in constant (1987) dollars. The Bush cuts are even worse, with about $50B/year revenue shortfall in inflation adjusted dollars. W/o a doubt. They brag of record tax receipts, yet they also post record deficits and debt increases. That's as brilliant as bragging about getting a pay raise and then maxing out your credit cards on BS, mortgaging your house and pissing it away and then calling yourself successful.

Right and it's not good on the expenditure end or the receiver end. A controled basic HC model would relieve that mess and is best in the interest of all. More people would get covered for less.