vortexring

You utter wanker. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

In a nutshell, you're very much mistaken. European people expecting their respective governments to look after them are very few and far between. Without a doubt. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I don't live in an overly violent society either, but I've met too many victims to feel safe. As a karate instructor, too many of them came in to the studio to learn to defend themselves after something had happened, rather than being proactive about their safety beforehand. # Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. # One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men. # In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. # About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30. -2005 National Crime Victimization Survey I'm missing your point. Should individuals be more proactive and learn self defence techniques, or just buy themselves a pistol and eat more hotdogs?

I'm being serious! Now fuck off! Besides, WTF is wrong with my picture? Can't you take your falsers out and tuck your nose into your chin!? Freak. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

It's came to my notice that this popular subject of debate is becoming rather heated. As usual. As usual the debate smoulders, sometimes blazes away, and doesn't quite achieve anything. Now, I don't expect any debate to achieve much here, although certain elements can be educational, so there lies some sort of achievement. Whilst all the debates go back and forth, and completely miss the real issue, isn't it time the real issue is therefore addressed? The problem isn't people having the right to carry firearms, or the opposite. The real problem is American culture and social issues. Now, being British it could be easy for me to not really care either way. But a lot of what happens Stateside tends to rub off in other places too... Why then do most other Western citizens believe there is no need to carry firearms day to day? Despite rising levels of armed crime, why still, do these people feel it's unnecessary to be armed? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

But I think you're nuts Randy.

Al Gore needs to sort the numerous mistakes out in his film... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I think it all boils down to where you describe yourself as fitting into it all. Somewhere in between. Humans, despite their best intentions will generally always fit somewhere in between. Unless of course they're Jesus or the Devil. Then they're not humans. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

This from a guy whose avatar makes him look like the lovechild of Popeye and the bitter beer face guy... Earlier it was Vinnie Jones - what made you change your tune? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Not 100% sure if indeed it was from GW I. Looking around the 'net it seems to be from 2004. I'm sure I can remember being told it was from GW I though. What is apparant though, is the points I made earlier. Not only on this thread, but others too. I do accept I'm unable to view the incident from the aircrews perspective in this case, but what I do have is a bagload of my own experience. Perhaps I'm using this incident to illustrate a point a little 'unfairly' then. But I'm happy enough to admit to that. What I'm not happy to achieve is another bunfight regarding this issue of 'shooting first, then asking the questions' policy. Not that I see any argument holding for it. Despite ROE's varying from theatre to theatre, country to country, they do dictate a moral obligation, such as proportionality as an example, and of course, the Geneva Convention. Despite the argument the a/c opened up with it's least powerful weapon system, it's evident from my perspective they are somewhat unsure of whether or not they're actually looking at hostiles. Hence the use of a ground patrol. Was the a/c becoming fuel critical? Was there no other a/c available to take over? No ground callsigns available? That still doesn't morally justify engaging what you still only suspect to be the enemy. Maybe stronger moral leadership is what's required. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Looks like I was wrong - had another look at the vid. and the time display looks to be reading around 1925Z which would make it roughly 2225 local. I think... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

The point here is that because I'm unable to confirm if they're carrying weapons I wouldn't open fire. Simple as that. Hence the use of a ground patrol. As far as I'm aware, the 'official' version of events does indeed indicate that on following up on the incident, weapons were found. But I still have my doubts. And for good reason too. End the of the day, we have ROE for good reasons. The Geneva Convention exists for good reasons. Obviously that was taken into account with the wounded person crawling on the ground........ 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

You should see my spectacles as well mate - I look like Austin Powers.

None whatsoever? Not a single, solitary patrol from the base available? Not that one was requested. Who told you that you can't use IR during the day? I've used various IR systems numerous times in daylight. edit: Again, perhaps they were weapons. But like I said earlier, are you able to confirm the fact they were indeed weapons? No. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

(only joking about your Mum!

What's wrong with it!? Besides, I had my false teeth out when it was taken. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

What, like your Mum? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

At the very least, it's a timely reminder that they're not exactly looking after their children isn't it? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

With all the points made being taking into account, I think a point worth mentioning is that poor people tend to be generally fatter than more well off people - especially when it comes to their children. I think they initially noticed this in America, and basically the reasons revolved around a cheap, nutrionally lacking diet. Considering cheap foods tend to be full of sugars and fats this was a significant reason for all the fat f....sorry, people. Lack of nutritional awareness and being idle were of course, significant factors too. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Mate - crewroom rumours. At the end of the day - whose right? Only the crews involved know. Either way, in a lot of cases, people died when there was no apparant need, and people killed, when there was no apparant need. I'm certainly not saying that I know the guys in the original vid. were up to no good. I was just trying to make a point, I wish I didn't even bother with. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

It illustrates itchy trigger fingers again. A bit like Popov mentioning the orange marker panels, no? Despite there being no military vehicle in the Iraqi army marked with illuminious orange marker panels, and despite numerous briefs that allied vehicles would be marked with orange marker panels.... It also reminds me of another Apache FLIR vid. taken in GW I of 2xM2 Bradleys being mistaken for Iraqi vehicles and being destroyed with 2 Hellfires. Again, the vehicles were not posing any immediate threat. And there were doubts of the vehicles being friend or foe. Unfortunately sounded after the 2 wagons were burning wrecks. 'Ah sure hope they weren't ours - 'cos they're definently dead...' Guess what pilot suddenly stopped prefixing his callsign with 'Gunslinger'? I could go on for hours about this. But I have in the past. What's the point? It's rather depressing to say the least. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

The 'story' around this vid. - if I'm remembering correctly - was that it occured in GW I. Apparantly the people you see being brassed up by the 30mil were 'working' on the undershoot to an unspecified airbase. And of course, apparantly, they were 'up to no good.' I have my doubts...either way, I couldn't see any immediate threats. Could anybody? What exactly were the weapons. Looked more like a fairly lightweight bunch of tools wrapped in a blanket thrown onto the ground. Not much threat there. It's also interesting hearing the controller ask if they're actually carrying weapons. One guy says 'Yes!' when they obviously aren't, whilst the other mentions they were carrying weapons. Like I said earlier, what weapons? A ground callsign should have went out to investigate - with the Apache remaining on station providing topcover. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

It wasn't at night. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Really? Where? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'