RiggerLee

Or a nice clean cliff with a garentied deep water landing. A round doesn't need to "fly" to work and they have a much lower forward speed. Wall strikes aren't quite as big a deal under a round. And just for the record, depending on the cercumstances, some one going in can be rather funny. If your around long enough and see enough people die... I'm not saying it isn't sad but you eather develop a sence of hummer about these things or you have to take golf, or tinnas, or putput for the truely tromatized. See there's a joke, funny yes? Trust me by the time you run out of fingers to count the "good friends" you'll eather have developed enough perspective to laugh about some of these things or you'll have a nice handy cap. See another joke. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

That may have happened but I don't buy that that is why it happened. Strongs were often packed with full stows. It's the most secure form of deployment and never prone to an increase in malfunction rate. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

84 means that it must be a breafcase. John also built the Presteage. The guy you need to talk to is John Stanford. He's still liveing in Carrolton. He quit jumping a couple of years ago but his wife still jumps there at skydive dallas. I'll try and find his number tomarrow. You can also try John Storie, Storie parachute works, the vested interest. He bought the other John out. They were solid rigs for there time but they are getting old. You could probbable look around and find something a little newer. Lee Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

You're right. They are fucking ugly. That's the most valid critecisem I've heard on here to date. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This should almost be a diffrent thread. I wish you'd posted it sepperatly. You've hit on one of my personal pet peaves. Now I don't see how you seem to think it justfies your preveous attacks on the system? At some point lawers got into all the companies around here and started working their evil. Rather then definding them selves with the truth manufactorers started playing games trying to pass the buck to some one else. Big pet peave of mine. But I don't see that here. I've read the press release. My computer wont open the pdf of the prelimanary report, my computer problem not theirs. The press release seems really straight up. All the things they mentioned were relevent. This whole thing seems to be a poor matanance, poor gear check, poor training issue. I don't see how it can be interperted any other way and I see no effert on their part to muddy the issue. And even if they were how does that make your little one man war in some way ritious? Now you've had several chances to make this thread productive. You could have made it about brain storming new ideas to improve some of the little matanance issues on the rig. I still think that would be fun. If you felt the report was sqewed you could have addressed that and cryed fawl. I don't see you disputeing the events that occured here or if you have that has become lost in your reteric, read that bullshit. If this really is your issue and you want to take offince at the way their report is written then I suggest you stick to that toppic. This is the rigging forum. Rigging is about hard engennearing practices. It's the appication of basic commen sence to maters involving kinetic and potental energy. We deal with peoples lives. We deal with the truth. If theres any place in the world with out room for bull shit this is it. I don't think your retteric will get a very warm reception here. Try some where more... interpertive. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I started to type this last night but hit the wrong key and lost it all. Stupid computer. I can bitch and whine and tell you all kinds of SE stories. I've been around long enough that I can tell you shit on almost any company out there. It's easy to bitch and talk shit about people. But I got other stories too. Here's one. A coulpe of years ago Tom, my old partner, got stuck doing a bunch of matanance for the school there at Dallas. They jump DHT's. They've got eight rigs I think. Not exactly a huge fleat but they work them pretty hard. They'd been haveing problems with mal's and shit. Way more then they should have had. I think a lot of it could have been corrected if they had just lissend to what Tom and I told them but in any case Tom calls up SE. Talks to them a bit and guess what there responce was? Their suggestion was to offer to send some one out on site to too see if they could help. They sent some one to Texas. From Florida. He was there for three days or so. Just to give them a packing class and some pointers on there matanance. What did SE charge the dropzone to fly a rep 1300 miles to help them revamp their whole tandom program in their school? What did they ask in return? If I remember corectly I think they asked if the drop zone could put him up in a room while he was their. I think they fed him lunch when they picked him up too. Now that's not the worst customer service I've ever seen in this sport. You know for a company that you seem to think is so fucking blasay about safety I'd have to say that they seemed pretty damn responcive to me. What do you think three days of on site consolting is worth. What would a company normaly bill for something like that? And it's not like Dallas is the biggest Tandom drop zone in the country. They own eight of their rigs not fifty. But SE considered it to be a safety issue and that's how they responded. There. That's a no shit SE story for you. Not some venomus conjecture being pissed into the internet from half way around the world. On another note i'd written a long winded diatribe on line stows, drag, cut away speeds, bag weights, and container design, and the history of bridles and free bags. I don't have the patentce to retype it. In essence it said that although there is a grain of truth in what you say you lack knowlage of the finer points in all of this that bridges the gap between theory and reality. You've been raised on populerized myths and are useing them to fill the gaps in your knowlage and expereance. You also seem to lack understanding of the design procces and the give and take between conflicting peramiters that leads to the compramise that all designs are. What really bothers me is the people that might be reading this. I don't have a problem arguing this among ou selves, riggers, but what botters me is that a lot of other people ou there read this board and adverag skydivers and even young riggers would not be able to see truth through some of these arguments. The bitch of the thing is you write fairly well if spitefully. I don't. It's obveously not my strong point. I do wish that I could be a bit more elegant but here am pecking away with two fingers in my phonetic dislexic rambleing way. I'm glad people have spoken up though. I just don't want to see these half truths and conjectures pass into the collectite wisdom unchallanged. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I've been busy. I'm glad SE has taken the time to respond. I'll add some thoughts and questions for you. First what makes you think that the bungy system on the reserve is some how infearior to a freestowed bag? Just because it's not exactly like every thing else you've seen? Tandoms operate in a whole diffrent relm then normal gear. The bag has the protentual to expereance much higher snatch forces and accelerations. That same system was on the main for years. And when well maintained it worked well. It's all about stageing. Most of the mal's I've seem can be atributed directly to that. The only times I've seen it fail were when the bungies were sevearly neglected or when the lines were over do neather of which should be a problem on a reserve. Whether it's the huge snatch force of the droge or the reserve pilot chute at tandom term you need good positive control of the lines. On the other hand I always woried about the velcro of the old vectors with there wide bags and heavy dacron llines on the reserve which tend to shear open the pocket. In point of fact I recall a double mall on a vector tandom there at Dallas and no one could ever critasize the emaculat care and matanace of that rig. I'd rather take the strong positive extraction on the SE high drag pilot chute and positve line control over the weaker pc on a vector with the weaker control of the pocket any day. It just has to opperate over a much wider range of speeds. I'm not bringing up the sky hook here, which I am in favor of on tandoms, because that would be like compareing apples and oranges. The bungies are a very working system. As to the main tray... The fundomental design was built as a system. The loop placement gives a vary limited range of adgustment. It could have been built diffrently but then you'ed be bitching about haveing a tong in the tray something which is out of fashion now even though it is in some ways a supperior system, more adjustment. They're right to be picky about the pack volume of the main and reserve. Eather system could be made to fail with too small a canopy in it. Now you could say that that's a flaw or a weekness but it was never designed with interchangeability in mind. Loop lengths... I smell a shitty packer. He makes a narrow tube out of the canopy, s folds it badly not absorbing the length, and winds up with a ball in the middle of a wide bag. Classic bowling ball pack job with out the corners filled. Boy that loop shure is tight! need a longer one. Then the canopy smushes out to the sides as the TM lays back on it. Now it's lose as shit. Yah, I can make it fail. Throw in a small canopy. Hell yah I can pull that bag out. does this make it a poor design? Or is it a string of decisions and incompatencies out side of their control? I can't beleave I'm setting here defending SE a company and design I've bitched about for years but your attacks are so scathing and unjustified, or mostly so, that I just have to cry fawl. Now I'm going to put one to SE that I'd like you to clarify if you would. Maybe I've missunderstood all these years. If you have full confadence in your reserve at all speeds then why are you so addiment about the reserve being deployed withen so many second of exit if the tandom has not acheaved a stable droge deployment? I was under the impression that it was prone to damage above a certin speed? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Oh my god. I can't beleave you've got me defending SE. How much is to much? I don't know any one that doesnt want better gear. Haveing said that there are limits. You can stand up all self ritious screaming that there is no price too high to pay for safty. That is the cry of a nieve child. The only way to totaly insure safety is to stay on the ground. There are limits top what every one will pay. Unless you are independently welthy there are limits to what you will pay. The cost of tandom gear, hell all skydiveing gear, is all ready through the roof. even now it's beyond the reach of many small dz's. A couple of months age a groop came through and baught out all the closets full of old gear there at the drop zone. Shit they had retired be cause we thought it was worn out. And these guys were happy to get it. What's a DHT go for right now? $10,000 rings a bell. Let's say all the manufactores decided to pull out all the stops, fix all the problems, and go for %100 saftey. That would include the doubleing of all prices across the board. you and every one else would be squealing like a little bitch. The industry couldn'ttake it. Skydiveing would end. None of that is an exaguation. It's not just what SE or UPT are willing to spend, it's what you and every one else is willing to pay. So don't put it all on them. Most of there decisions are based on you. If "you", you here being the drop zone industry as a whole, were willing to pay for a fully redesigned system SE would have come forward with it by now. It's not just the manufacteror it's also the market. You know reserves are designed different than mains because there are required different opening characteristics and the same is valid for deployment system on reserves. Now is year 2009 not 1980. I've heard the same arguments before "If you are complaining jump LoPos, ParaCommanders, Thunderbows" - and I did. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe I should relate a phone call from a nearby DZO. "Good news! You got another save - on a Vector Tandem reserve - last week. Bad news! The opening sucked! It was stalling and rocking all over the sky!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree. Breaks set so deep it stalls after opening. It is a cheat how to beat the tests on tandem terminal. There are already more modern and better reserves on the market. But you can't say MR425 is not bad because VS360 is not good - it doesn't make sense For the record SE lopo's are still one of the best pilot canopies out there for the range of speeds for which they were designed. And your optama is not superier for that perpouse. You have to judge things based on what they were designed for. VS360 is a fine example. It was designed to survive opening. Tweeking the breaks isn't some cheep trick. Every manufactor of every canopy does that. It's the easiest way to adjust the opening. And choseing a supper deep setting is a ligitament way of slowing the opening way way down. And that's what you need when your going 180+. Got to go. I'll pick at your post more later. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

What year was the reserve originaly "certified". I use the term losely as I recall it was really waver/experamintal program. How dose the testing they did then compare to what we've now established as the standard? Don't have the specs in front of me and don't know what they used before seing as they were makeing it up as they went. They them selves admit that it will blow to hell at tandom terminal. Shurely the TSO c23d is higher then that. What year did they switch to nilon tapes every where on the maine? As it has a closer streach to the fabric under load, any thing would be better then kevlar, I'd bet it has a higher survivability yet they never upgraded the reserve. and as I recall TSO c23d does allow the use of free fall bullets or dumbies to test canopies. Just roll it out the back of the plane and let it fall till it's going as fast as you like. No more supper high speed passes with specal aircraft. It's nolonger beyond the doable. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I've been packing DHT from strong sence my second jump in 1991. I'd have to go back an count how many reserve packjobs. Absolutely no clue how many hours I've spnt sewing on them. Gripeing about strong tandoms has been a standard pass time in the loft for years. i can sit here and pick apart any design on the market. I keep saying that one day I'll buld a new tandom rig... but what ever. Are strongs my faverat? No. Do they have flaws? A pile of them. are a lot of your bitches valled? Yes. But haveing said all of that I got to tell you your being a little harsh. There are flaws in every system out there. Strong has a working system. It does work. Lot's and lots of jumps on them out here. They've had fatalities, every body has. It has weeknesses, the reserve canopy is a perfect example, but you cant say it's a death trap not when it's been around as long as it has with as many jumps as it has on it. Now if you want to set down and brain storm ideas mods and upgrades for improving the strong tandom I think that would be a great thread. But with your wild ravings your comeing off as a borderline lunitic tool. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

That you would do this at all... visualise raise of eye brow. That you would do this on a straight in approach... see a disperate search for a video cammera. Dude, just the fact that you think that you would be safer doing this straight in rather then swooping tells me all I need to know. To any one out there at or neer the same drop zone. Please film this so we may all laugh with you. Gold, video gold. Just out of curreosity What's in your reserve? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

That is true. Just for the record that is actualy rather important. The leg straps will be rolled and sewn with x number of passes of five cord of x length at x stiches per inch with a minimum number of stiches. or they'll be split and sewn on an old mill rig. It's actually written into the line drawing of there tso. DO NOT CUT OFF YOUR LEG STRAPS TO MAKE THEM SHORTER. DO NOT TRY TO RESEW THEM WITH E-THREAD. Don't laugh I've seen people do it. Oddly no one has ever seemed to make a big deal about chest straps. It's a lot less force. It doesn't seem to have slip issues like leg straps. That's probbably because we use such aggessive hardware on them. If we tryed to use that on a highly loaded leg strap it would probable cut it in half. The fact that it's almost a straight pull rather then the smaller diamiter of the leg helps too. I think you'll find that the ones that aren't rolled at all are double layer 17. I don't think it could slip and a roll might be a bit thick to slip through the adapter any ways. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

There can be load there... was it a racer that tore lose all the stiching on one side of the chest strap? Memory is failing me. And I seem to recall hearing that Booth played with a single layer type 17 sewn in chest strap. I heard that he rejected it when he found issues durring asimetric openings on drop test. Setting peel issues aside sence we know that tension is not much over 500 lb has any one looked at some of the para glideing hard wear? They have some nice alumanum quick releases. And they use those for there leg straps. It's a seat but you can still wind up with load on them. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

As to the history of clear coated cable. They used to build cutaway cables from something simular. Didn't they have issues with cracking in cold weather? Did just have snag incedents or did they actualy strip sections? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I don't think it's a tso question but back durring the Appleton fatality one thing that was made a big deal out of was the fact that he had swapped out his javelin handle for a RWS fatty. Much was made of the lengths of the the cables and even just the fact that it was not a sun path part. It's another of those things that no one used to make a big deal about. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Just do it like a bottom skin deployable flag. Pulled down from a pocket on the canopy after opening. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

When **** ****** now a well known rigger from Texas got his first saber he was so frustraed trying to pack the slippery greasey thing that he resorted to trying to perferate the tail of the canopy by sewing back and forth just in front of the tail seam with his sewing machine and a dry neadle. We still make fun of him for it. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I remember Chris Gay was telling me he had run a very high " useage rate" for a while. I don't remember the exact number but he had done the math and it was something rediculas like 18%. The thing was it wasn't all crw or test jumping or tandoms. It just seemed like every one he packed for was haveing rides. He was a little freaked out about it. I don't recall haveing that jmany in one day but I have had a number of people have rides the same day I packed it. There was one guy that had... I think it was three rides in three days. I think I packed two of them. He was from out of town. Choped. I repacked it that night. Chopped the next day. I repacked it over night. And he road it again the next day. I think I told him to take it home with him to his own rigger. He was great busness but just too high of a risk. The skygods were after him. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Do the demos have a tso tag on them? They can build any thing as a main. Nothing to slow them down there. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Too much. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Keeping in mind that every one measures things a little diffrently. I don't have the paper in front of me but the number 172 sticks in my head. The way GPI/FCI measures things I'd say it's a little on the small side unlike a PD. It's a slightly older design and has no stabalizers. I wouldn't load it quite as high as they do with some canopies. But I like big reserves any ways. Haveing said all that I've got half a dozen rides on mine. It has all ways treated me well and it's still packed into my rig to this day. I've known red for years and if you ever need anything he will be there to help you 100%. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I have jumped a couple of conqest. Stanford was a dealer for them. Early high performance cccanopy. Rectangular. Nice landings. Heavy ZP fabric, high packvolume, may not age well. Some of them came in a checker board pattern. Some of them opened supper hard and some opened super soft. Big lip on the nose. Vertical baffles on the nose as well. Not an airlock or any thing like it. The inlets were very low on the nose. If you pulled on the front's you would get a classic nose tuck colapes. When the angle of attack changed the nose colapes on the top of the leading edge and roll right under. Depending on the wing loading this could be any thing from interesting to frightening. I never had one or saw one collaps in full flight but I'd be cautous with it in turbulance. Keep positive loading even a little breaks. Remanisant of a saber 1. Don't over load it. Not my first choice but if some one handed me a spare rig I wouldn't think twice about jumping it. I would have to be auffly cheep to tempt me to buy it. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I don't hve any good data on this ether. But people have only been doing this for about the last twenty years. I have to think that if there was a real danger it would have reared it's head by now. No definetive answer just a long track record. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

A point that's sooo cool! Can't wait to pack one. As I was told the story, once opon a time the millatary precurment system was a real over spected nightmare. Now it seems they buy every thing off the shelf. I doubt it would be as big a problem now. You'd have to have a qc and testing program for the mido but I don't see the big deal. Booth obveously did it. The bottom line is new colors, cool fabrics, freefly friendly flaps, and embroidery sell rigs not safety features. Your best bet is to get a ground swell of support going here on dz. but you can't go telling people that it will make them safer. You got to come up with another line. Tell them... it will make it harder for the pin to be pushed out and there rig will be more free fly friendly. Try telling them they can use a soft houseing through the yoke with the spector rip cord and it will make there rig more comfertable. The reserve flap will lay flatter without that nasty cable and there rig will look smaller. Come on if we all brainstorm here I'm sure we can come up with a good compelling argument on which to base a campaine. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Ya, you got a point. Keep in mind where those pins came from. That's a capewell pin. It's designed to go through a cone. If you don't know what I'm talking about look it up. Old Millitary shit. I will say this for it, it's all metal, but even that didn't keep it from haveing problems. We're useing something for a purpouse in a way that it was never designed for. Some things they're stuck with. If you need a metal that can be forged, drawn out, and swedged then there's a limit to how hard it can be. And would you really want it to break? Better that it bend. But there is no reason that it should be the diamiter that it is. It's high time we designed a pin of our own for our own needs. And yes I think it should be fatter. I remember setting around and lissening to Booth and... I think it was Cliff museing about this very thing during an accedent investigation, unrelated. I will say that I don't like Booths new "Peg" pin. Too big, too fat, too square, and for God sake could you sharpen the end just a little. Let's be honest. He usses those damn things and he's going the spector becose he's too cheep to pay capewell to swedge his ripcords. Don't blame him theywant too much money and his shit works fine other then the pin. Just as a side note you know there was a manufactor doing that thirty years ago right? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com