steveorino

I agree. I did it on purpose. To be absurd to illustrate the absurd. The same happens when people cite the inquisition and the crusades as a reason religion should be abolished. steveOrino

We've heard that before. There is another thread for that. steveOrino

I agree with you, This is like saying having a brain has positive and negative effects. No, the implication is there are good things that come from religion (charities that feed & clothe, hospitals, orphanages, and even the peace and comfort it brings to some during trials of life) and their abuses of religion such as crusades, inquisition, etc. Likewise there are many good things that come from science, but there are bad reseults such as toxic waste, along with those who abuse science for a purpose of their own. steveOrino

Science isn't a religion and doesn't compare very well to religions. Yep, and the same could be said about religion. It isn't a science and doesn't compare well to sciences. steveOrino

Most don't have a degree. Well, that has been my experience, but I'm not making an exclusive statement. steveOrino

I'm sorry you feel it is an attack. I'm all for science and scientifc discovery. I'm sorry if it came off as I was anti-science. I was just pondering the question in my head that I wonder why we blame Christianity/Islam etc. for its misuse and abuse but never do the same for science. steveOrino

I agree with you, but I was trying to make a point about those who love to point out the misuse and abuse of religion, but overlook the misuse/abuse of science (or even the natural by product of scientific advancement such as nuclear waste.) steveOrino

You have no factual basis for that claim. Moreover the program requires dis-empowerment and intense attendance of religeous oriented rituals that would put a priest to shame. My bad. That is the arguement they present. Pretty bias I guess. I have reservations about it because a fundamental belief it has is only those who are in recovery can lead a 12 step group. Or so we are told at the pyschiatric hospital where I do my practicum. Obvioulsy there are many pyschologist who would differ. Apart from the step that recognizes a higher power (utterly undefined) there doesn't have to be a religous overtone. There is none at the local pysch hospital. Not was there any next door to a church I pastored. They couldn't even say "bible" in their meetings. It had to be the book, so neutral it could mean any book. steveOrino

For what it is worth it is listed in the DSM-IV-TR http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/_misc/complete_tables.htm steveOrino

The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves. steveOrino

I agree. The misuse of Christianity is usually done by those desiring money and power. steveOrino

While i would agree with you my point wasn't to prove God. Much harm has been done in the name of religion and that is the excuse given by many that the world would be better off w/o it. I just noted harm has been done in the name of science and pose the question would the world be better off w/o scientific progress as well? steveOrino

I was thinking more along the lines of scientific progress that includes industrialization. I wan't speaking of scientist, per say, but of progress like nuclear energy, etc. steveOrino

As a defense for the exclusion of religion and how the world would be a better place without I often read about the misuse of Power (in the name of religion), Salem witch trials, Inquisition, crusades, Jihad, etc. If the world would be a better place because people misuse religion or do harm in the name of religion, would the world be a better place without science? Much harm has come into our world in the name of scientific progress, ie polution, extinction of animals, to say nothing of barbaric scientific procedures perform on patients such as lobotmiesperformed on mental patients, and the autrocities done in the concentration camps by Nazi scientists! steveOrino

Good points and I agree with you. steveOrino

You get no disagreement from me there! I'm totally against the propaganda I see form christian watchdogs that tell people how to vote. For instance While I like much of what James Dobson has done for the family in America, I do not like him telling his audience that Newt is better than Thompson, yada, yada, yada. If he feels he needs to inform his audience then do so by telling them how they stand on the issues, and keep personal biases and interpretations of who the better "christian" is out of the mix. While I wish for the vote to remain free and without limitations, just as I wish the same for free speech, I wish those exercising those rights would take more personal responsibility and have less of a sheep mentality. But how in the world would you legislate that? You can't. You must allow the Westboro Baptist folks to speak their ridiculous interpretations along with more "rational" people. The minute you restrict their free speech and exercise of American liberty, you have opened a big can of worms. steveOrino

It is a straw men when you bring up the atrocities of state christianity as an argument against a personal choice for christianity. What other limits would you put on one's ability to vote? If Christians can't vote their conscience based on a christian worldview, should animal rights activist not vote based on theirs? What about gay right's activist? Scientist? People of different ethnicity? Or is your restriction simply limited to people with religous convictions. Their is a turd who unfortunately shares my name, and on the behalf of his "christian" worldview he demonstrates against USA at their the funerals of American soldiers. While I detest his message and personally had to restrain my anger when he came to my friend's son's funeral, I believe he has every right to excercise his right to vote his stupid (IMHO) conscience. The second I restrict his rights I open the door to restrict the rights of others. Don't carry this to gay marriage rights as I don't care what they do in so far as marriage. (just heading off that tangient) steveOrino

Cool. Different things make people happy. You can have cheesecake and I can have creme brulee, and as long as we both enjoy it, that's what matters. You might like this article. Blues, Dave Great article Dave! I guess it is sad some of our atheist friends here have such a limited view of christianity and freedom in general. One wants to put limits on how one can vote, the other loves to bring up the straw man argument of the evil christianity has done when confronted with the reality of a life that was positively changed by an encounter with JC. I'm not sure I know what you believe but I have read a lot of your posts on dropzone.com. You are obviously intelligent and know a lot about skydiving as well. I respect your views even if they don't align with mine as you have been a fair in your posts whether it be about religion or being a skydiving instructor. Peace to you! steveOrino

I'm still trying to figure how building buildings like orphanages, tolilets, and digging wells is bad. steveOrino

I tried to find it on dropzone.com but I couldn't. There are some gruesome pics of a high speed MC gone very wrong. Be careful. Have fun! steveOrino

I'm not an AFFI so take my input with a grain of salt. I am a IADI and TI. I've videoed the worst AFF I ever saw a few years back. It went to hell in a hand basket quickly. One AFFI was slung off and the other hung on finally deploying him just above the hard deck. The AFFI was white as a ghost after that jump. That same AFFI is also a TI. I videoed a tandem of his where a strong 25 year old guy stopped the flair about shoulder high. Just before they both hit like a ton of bricks the TI's adrenalyne kicked in and was able to over power the young man and get "part" of a flair initiated before they hit ... hard. Maybe this particular AFFI/TI should tell us which should be paid more. steveOrino

Really? So should I respond the same to you? I suspect deep down you may have a doubt or two about God, and you are afraid to find out differently? Nah, I won't say that, as it adds nothing to the debate but only implies something about you I have no clue about. You should do the same. steveOrino

If it is a typical lab, how about ADHD? steveOrino

You're kidding right? How will those issues be resolved or made better if it is not through the acts of individuals? Here are some Christian organizations that are making a difference. CAFOD - the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development - is a major British charity that has been fighting third world poverty since 1962. The Christians who run CREE are all convinced that God wants them to do all they can to help these people, so they collect clothes, bedding, food, computers, bicycles, sewing machines and medical goods in this country. They are sorted and packed, and go to churches in Romania and Moldova where they are given to absolutely anyone who needs them. TEARFUND works to fight poverty by providing disaster relief and long-term development in some of the world's poorest communities. Tearfund's work is carried out through local partner organizations, with Tearfund providing grants, consultancy and expertise. This work is undertaken not just because people living in such conditions are extremely needy, but because we also believe that it is a biblical calling: Jesus was deeply affected by the poor, the marginalized and the oppressed and called us to also serve the poor. The Leprosy Misssion (TLM) is currently caring for the needs of over 200,000 people affected by the disease. Most of our patients and hospitals are in India, though we also work in Africa and South East Asia. The Salvation Army is both a church and a charity. Its charity work is a result of trying to fulfill the teaching of Jesus. It is an organization working in over 100 countries worldwide and providing humanitarian relief, alongside other relief agencies whenever disaster strikes - be it a natural or man made disaster. YELDALL BRIDGES. In the 1960's and 1970's, two Christian couples - Doug and Barbara Henry and Bill and Joanie Yoder - met some young people who were addicted to drugs and felt they had to do something to help them. Both opened their homes to many who the world would normally shun, but soon found the work out-grew these houses. The rehabilitation houses have grown and developed over the years and now house up to 46 men and 16 women. CWA (Christian World Adoption) exists to feed, clothe, medicate, educate, and care for children without regard for color or class, based on the teachings and love of Christ Among the many others are … HOPE WORLDWIDE PHYSICIANS FOR PEACE INMED steveOrino

It seems a little self serving to mention but since you missed my point. The SteveO before JC took care of himself. Maybe his immediate family, but few things outside that. The "new man" SteveO who found purpose in life through the grace of God changed that. I have traveled many times on my own money to third world countries and lived for weeks on the floor of a hut, in the rain forrest bathing in the rivers, eating with the locals while building orphanages, churches, homes, installing toilets, walls and other building projects. For the last twenty years I have given over 30% of my income to feed & clothe hungry kids in the USA and abroad, give shelter and hope to the homeless, to encourage impoverished pastors of third world countries, etc. I have worked in homeless shelters and AIDS clinics as a volunteer, I have befriended and included many who find themselves outside the circles of communities. Every Easter and Thanksgiving I invite strangers to my home for dinner and an afternoon with my family. Do I need to go on? I typically do not boast on this service as it is simply a part of who I am in Christ. It was never a part of who I was apart from JC. steveOrino