Trent

It is sticky isn't it? We have also learned the hard way that too much oversight can lose wars as well. Oh, hello again!

Actually the military and intelligence agencies hide a lot of things from congress. And by "hiding" I mean, they usually have a "pool" of money designated for classified projects or covert operations. Congress allots money for this "pool" and is almost entirely in the dark as to what it is used for. Why? Because time and time again, politicians have proven that they cannot keep their mouths shut when it involves national security. It is completely reasonable to think that these covert prisons are to prevent people from raising a ruckus like they did about Guantanamo. Maybe they do feel the need to detain suspects indefinitely when they think they have good reason and they don't want people to know they've got them. Like has been mentioned twice... maybe they don't want people knowing the locations so we don't have any hare-brained escape attempts. Maybe they keep them covert so they can use the interrogation techniques they feel are necessary that people here would cry about and claim as torture... when it really isn't. Maybe they don't want the cooperating countries revealed for their own protection. Enough possible reasons yet? Either way, I'll say it again... I should hope that, even if only for the base reason of money, these prisons aren't just used for any average guy who is remotely suspected as a terrorist. That would not make sense. Instead, I would think that they'd be used for higher level people who are more than just SUSPECTED of being a terrorist. (Kinda like you KNOW Osama is a terrorist, trial or not... reality) And yes, these people were endowed with the same rights as all of us, but pretty much gave them up when they made the decision to be a terrorist. Oh, hello again!

The tactics in covert prisons may be more harsh, such as sleep deprivation, controlled food and water, various psychological games, and an occasional bitch-slap. However, if you're using experience interrogators, they will know that actual torture will not get them any good info... unless of course experience in the real world (not a college paper) leads them to think otherwise. If, in practice, torture doesn't reveal any good intel AND you have professional interrogators trying to do the best for their country... you won't see torture on the level that the Soviets and Vietnamese did against people. It just wouldn't make sense, and any professional would know that. Hence, I think that any of the abuses and beatings to death are comitted by overzealous, frustrated, and maybe sadistic lower-level people who are not trained interrogators. That is not policy, that would be exception. But hey, that's just me... I don't think that everyone in the US government and armed forces is evil or stupid. Oh, hello again!

No, but we should put into perspective that in the US, we have approximately 2.03 million people in prison. The average homicide rate in these prisons is 4 per 100,000 prisoners PER YEAR. That means 81 homicides are comitted in our normal prisons. Compare that to the 26 people killed in 3 years between Afghanistan and Iraqi prisons. Not that we have 2 million people in prison in Afghanistan and Iraq, or that the US regularly kills their domestic prisoners as a policy (non-death penalty anyway). I just don't think that there is evidence of a POLICY that encourages the violent abuse and murder of detainees. We'd probably see tons more deaths if that were the case. It would be interesting to see how much the abuse and deaths decreased AFTER the Abu Grhaib shit went down. I bet it's a lot less, not that it really matters to people who want to continue to bash the US. Also, someone always mentions that torture does not reveal any good info. While I'd agree that zapping testicles and shoving bamboo under the fingernails will get people to say anything to stop the pain, I DO think that sensory deprivation, intimidation, and use of drugs will get you some intel and I do not consider that to be torture. I'm sure people here will, though. As far as having covert prisons, I've already stated why I don't see it as a huge problem in this thread. I'd just hope that they reserve them for people that get caught pretty red-handed or are already wanted and valuable captures. Keeping an average Joe in those prisons is a waste of time and my tax dollars. Oh, hello again!

So you mention 26 deaths at 3 different locations. Given the amount of prisoners and number of prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan, I wouldn't call that rampant or widespread. I wonder how many prisoners in the US are victims of homicide in prison each year. Yes, these people are fucking stupid for abusing prisoners. Yes, they deserve to be punished, and Yes... they are being punished. We still have the same basic disagreement that all prisoners and dead are merely innocent victims. Oh, hello again!

You didn't say helpless, bound and naked prisoners you said: And I have never said that I condone the killing of prisoners. Intimidation and certain interrogation methods do not amount to torture in my opinion, but beating people to death does. Oh, hello again!

By that rationale, we couldn't even defend ourselves if attacked at home. I know it's cliche to go to a WW2 example, but would you blame the Allies for innocent deaths in battles and bombings, or would you blame the people who thrust war upon the world? Oh, hello again!

and 90% of the pictures I've seen seem to be the same fucktards from the same time-period at the same prison. Yes, I Googled for them. Maybe you can point me to where, other than this instance (which has people being prosecuted for it), where it seems that torture (not just intimidation) is a systematic problem. Seriously. Oh, hello again!

I guess we just differ on responsibility assigned as well. I'd say that pictures like that are the fault of the fucktards in them and the jackoffs taking them. There's some blame for anyone instructing non-interrogators to do any "softening" or interrogating. Then, there's a good bit of blame for (and you probably won't agree) the world press and the gullible masses who see a picture like that and think that stuff like that is a practice and not an exception. And any innocent casualty is too much, but this is part of what happens in any war... whether or not you think it is a just or unjust war. Oh, hello again!

As I mentioned before I think they're covert for more than one reason. I also acknowlegge that it may ALSO be that they can use more direct methods of getting info, which could include a beating. What is also interesting is that pretty much the same people who just assume these covert prisons are ONLY for torturing innocent people, also chant the mantra heard many times over "Torture does NOT work for interrogation!" I'm beginning to think that we either have tons of interrogation experts here, who've done some research themselves... or a bunch of people who just can't possible IMAGINE that the actual interrogators of the world might actually know this and use different methods to get information. Of course, maybe we're just bloodthirsty dogs like people are inclined to say. Oh, hello again!

I've read all about the abuses reported in the press. My question to you, Bill, was more specific than you answered... or maybe you really do think that the 20 dead and 400 tortured prisoners were all innocent. If that's the case, we have to just leave this argument at the same place we left the bodycount argument last year. You will continue to beleive that everyone is innocent, and I will continue to beleive that there are some innocent victims here, but not all. Unless we go to these places and see what we think for ourselves, there's no telling. I just choose to think that the US is not the evil monster that many people here and around the world paint it to be. Popular opinions may indeed have their base in reality, but there was also that time when everyone thought the world was flat. Oh, hello again!

I don't know, but if we're already out in the open violating basic human rights, why hide it in a covert prison? I can think of a few reasons, but that doesn't mean that's what's going on. Here's a couple of my ideas... Maybe they're situated geographically as somewhere to take recently captured prisoners for a quick interrogation instead of sending them all the way around the world. This actually might mean they get home faster if they're deemed to not be a bad guy. Maybe the locations mean there are local law enforcement people around who will speak the language better, or understand the situations better and can reach the prisoners in interrogation. Maybe it will allow quicker reaction to gathered intelligence since it doesn't have to go through so many people before a decision can be made. Or... hell, maybe it's just so they can beat the shit out of innocent people who know nothing about anything and keep it at arm's length from the US government. Maybe y'all are right! Oh, hello again!

I don't see anything I've said about these prisons to be stroking my own ego. Nor do I think that pointing out when people are jumping to conclusions, particularly when the people doing it are all over anyone who disagrees with them on a regular basis, is condescending. At the least it is no more or less condescending than the typical tone people take here. I think you might be overreacting to my hyphenation of the word "assume". As for what you may or may not know about me, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me in what I think about this matter. I find it every bit as offensive to hear the constant "US=Bad" bullshit as you do to have a position that you may or may not support pointed out to you as hypocrisy. Who I am or what I've done doesn't change the accuracy of my statement. But hey, it's okay to think whatever you want. As long as I can do the same! Oh, hello again!

I think it's entirely appropriate to point out that many people on this forum just drool for a chance to make the US look bad, even when they have no evidence. If I have offended those people by pointing out that their zeal for slamming the US caused them to make up something that wasn't even mentioned in the article, good! Whether or not I've ever assumed anything isn't relevant... shouldn't you be ABOVE that stuff? Kinda like people keep claiming the US should be ABOVE doing anything that could actually help them win the war on terror? Like it or not, the assumptions in this thread alone are enough to show that many people just can't wait to bash the US. Don't like what I'm saying, go read the article, then read the thread. Oh, hello again!

How many "innocent" prisoners have been tortured and killed, Bill? I guess I'd have to ask what you consider torture, because it's pretty apparent that a pair of panties and being moved to Club Cuba are enough reason to cry torture. Can you point out the rampant torturing and killing we're doing? Maybe then I'll beleive that y'all aren't nuts. Oh, hello again!

What is REALLY interesting here, is that you guys have read a report about the existence of some secret detention centers being run by a multinational group of counterterrorism operatives, and without hesitation, you have all ASS-umed that there is torture going on rampantly. Not once does the article mention torture. If you can't discern a difference between "interrogation" and "torture", then we've reached the root of the problem already. It just further goes to show that so many people are just eager and desperate to see the US as the bad guys. Oh, hello again!

All AFF instructors at Spaceland wear video for each student jump. We use the video to debreif students so they can SEE what we're talking about. I don't think any of our instructors even think about the video when doing these jumps. It is a useful tool that is easy to do, and the students get a ton more out of the jump when since we dub down the videos to their tapes and they can go home and see what went on in the jumps and try to correct it or improve on it for the next jump. As far as not seeing enough in the video.... the AFF JM should always be visiually scanning the student from arms to legs, just doing that gives them enough of a look at their entire body position with any decent wide angle lens. As it turns out, at our DZ... this doesn't take any video work away from our video staff since we never really had them do outside on AFF's anyway. We try to keep them busy with tandems. Of course, if a student wants extra outside video... they can pay for it. But as it is, the video IS an improvement on teaching for us and every one of us instructors sees it as a good thing. Oh, hello again!

If you can't flat-track, hold a heading, or fly to a dock on your belly... it might be a bit soon to start jumping ahead to freeflying. Technically, if you can't do any of those things... you couldn't pass AFF, but we've all seen some students graduate with only VERY basic survival skills. In my opinion, you WILL spend a very important part of each skydive on your belly... tracking and at pull-time. If those aren't locked down, that should be your first priority. If you've got those survival skills down pretty well, who's to say you can't mix it up a bit. I would recommend learning some freeflying, but not forgetting to spend a couple of jumps on your belly. The best freefly students I've coached have had pretty good belly skills already and were able to apply what they knew about flying. This is mostly because they had the air-awareness already, and could focus on learning the new stuff. Another thing to keep in mind... it'll be easier for you to find people to jump with if you're diverse. No freefly coaches available? Don't want to do a solo? Don't want to get on a freefly zoo load? Get with a small RW group and JUMP. Who says that freeflyers don't have to be as good on their bellies? I personally think it's embarrassing when freefliers screw up a belly jump. Besides, turning points is fun and challenging no matter what your level. The most memorable jumps I've done have all had at least some belly points in them. My opinion bottom-line: Work on everything. Get competent on your belly at the very least before you go 99% freeflying. Never miss a chance to jump with people and get better at something just because it's on your belly. And here's a hot tip: Almost ALL freefly instruction was taken from RW. The same principles apply. Oh, hello again!

This is the most OBVIOUS fact that most of the "The Evil US Sells Arms To Everyone!!" type blamers overlook.When you first posted it, no one responded. I doubt many people will, because it fills their bullshit arguments with even more holes. In fact, you can go ahead to expand the point to say that you see more RPG's, Soviet designed missiles, Soviet aircraft, and Soviet armored units in war-torn regions. That MUST be proof that the US is supplying these countries and dictators. Many of these weapons are also made in HUGE quantities by... China. I think where most of the "blame America" crowd gets confused (not like that's abnormal), is that they look at dollar amounts of arms LEGALLY sold to other countries. Like when we sell F-16's to Spain or Japan. Oh, hello again!

Even more depressing is actually hearing this fuckin' guy's comments at Howard and hearing people applaud when he says that black people need to figure out a way to exterminate white people. Oh, hello again!

By the way you describe it, it seems that this malfunction could happen to any PC with a handle on the end. I can see that having the 1/2 inch extension on the Wings handly would make it more likely, but only slightly. If the bridle comes out and loops around any PC, there is the chance that it would not slide around any type of handle. I'd be interested to hear how many times it's happened on conventional (hackey, pvc) handles in relation to the Wings-type handle. Likewise, I have seen drawbacks to the apex mounted freefly handles as well. Sloppy packing leaves some PC material exposed. A knocked out handle means the PC is now in the wind instead of JUST the handle. I have seen freefly handles on all kinds of rigs just not sitting right and loosely stowed. Potential problems are everywhere. Oh, hello again!

Wow, this must make it hard for Turks to use the World Wide Web, huh? Oh, hello again!

Like everyone else has said, contact Sunrise Rigging and they'll probably handle it without any problems. It's interesting to see so many people down on that handle. My team has been using them since 2003, doing a thousand jumps a year and never had any problems. Sure, we've knocked the handles out in freefall by doing stupid stuff and trying new moves, but each time it involved stepping on the handle by accident. Otherwise, they have never come out. When it was out, it felt just like a hackey back there flopping around, and it wasn't bad enough to expose ANY of the PC. If you can't get the handle to stay in, make sure you're tucking it into the right corner flap/bridle cover. Also make sure you close the rig Bottom, Top, RIGHT, Left. That'll keep it a bit tighter. If you have a tight rig or an oversized canopy, the handle can be hard to get in, but it's nothing a couple of punches to the right corner hasn't fixed for me. I've heard of people not liking the attachment between the PC apex and the handle before as well, and understand what COULD happen there. Getting the PC into the wind seems to help prevent that, and none of us has had any problems with it so far. The good news is that either way, Wings is always making those handles better. I'm sure they will continue to do so. Oh, hello again!

Simple answer?? No money, and some of us didn't have anymore time off of work to take. It's really frustrating to sit here and watch scores when we're not competing, but we do have our sights set on the World Championships in August and Nationals October. Best of luck to Guano... looks like their round 1 scores put them in first so far! Go get 'em guys! Oh, hello again!

I would HIGHLY recommed any new teams consider working towards competing in the Nationals. In the US we have an intermediate class, and any team that spends a season training well should be able to hold their own. Even if you feel that you don't have the skills yet, GO COMPETE!! In the US, people already want to do away with freeflying 3 way since we never have more than 20 teams total. It just takes people working hard and putting the effort to go to nationals to make it better in the long run. Besides, it's fun as hell. Oh, hello again!