Trent

Or maybe we should just not worry about fixing what isn't broken. Oh, hello again!

Why did I know that someone like you would say something like that? Just call me a sexist piece of shit next time, because I don't want ladies hearing me drop a load and I don't want to hear them dropping theirs. Maybe we should launch a protest against God or nature (or whatever you beleive) since for some reason, men and women were just made different. Who can we sue? Whatever, dude. Oh, hello again!

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Hmmm... I wonder why she apologized. I'm pretty sure that when someone asks for forgiveness, it needs to be sincere in pretty much any religion. Now, Jane could have been sincere in her apology... or, she could have been drumming up publicity for, TADAAA... selling her book! Not that such a wholesome lady would do such a thing.... Oh, hello again!

Call me old fashioned, but I really don't want to hear women ripping up the toilet. Not that I don't know that it happens, but some things just need to be private. What was that word that almost everyone seems to have forgotten? Ah, decorum. Next thing you know, someone will be making men have kids... because, really, we're all the same. Oh, hello again!

I can't tell if it is staged or not from the video, but I don't think any of the reasons people have listed so far are good indications of a fake. People who have seen gunshot wounds will tell you that they don't bleed like the movies. I've seen a few fresh ones in the ER that weren't bleeding at all. Especially if the guy is wearing a thick-ish jacket like he appears to be... any blood would have to soak through that before getting on the floor. It is possible that if this is indeed real, there wasn't any blood right away. Now as for shooting him 2 times at the end, the 2nd shot seems legit since the guy appears to pick up the gun again. The last shot may be disputed, but it still seems like he's got his hand on the gun. As for the clerk shooting like a G, who knows... Oh, hello again!

I'm not 100% sure about the decision process, but I think it was a safety concern. We didn't agree with it either, but then the judges had a whole lot of wierdness going on in Brazil. Oh, hello again!

Yeah, we all liked that at the world meet too. Unfortunately, the judges didn't, and made them stop doing it. Props to them for the creativity and balls to do that! Hope we run into those guys again soon! Oh, hello again!

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What's sad is that it has to be like this in our lawsuit happy society. I don't know if you meant it was sad that the teacher and prinicpal called the cops, or that they had to due to the possibility of a suit. I think it's sad that parents don't discipline their kids, then sue people who have to put up with them. I'm sure that some of the stuff teachers did to us and our parents would be scandalous lawsuits today. Oh, hello again!

It's a real shame that they had to use police to control the girl... but think about it. They may not have had a choice. When I was in 4th grade, my teachers had had enough of my shit at some point and sent me to the office. Once I got there the principal had me bend over a chair and proceeded to go to work with the paddle. It wasn't that bad, but it hurt enough to make me not want to do it again. Lesson learned, ass whippings hurt, don't be a little bastard or it'll happen again. In my parents day... the teacher would've whipped me right then and there. TODAY, teachers can't even escort a student to the office with a firm grip on their arm without being sued. Punishing students is almost forbidden to the point that teachers almost have to call a lawyer when making any sort of punishment. THAT is the problem. So before blaming the cops and teachers, think about what kind of lawsuits there would be if the teacher, or anyone from the school, had just dealt with the brat. It's sad and stupid that she had to call the cops to discipline the kid, but it might not be entirely her fault that the educational environment at schools here has made people so afraid of lawsuits that we can't discipline kids when their parents refuse to. Oh, hello again!

As long as I keep moving, he can't get me. Besides, we've almost got him convinced he's gay so I can steal his lovely wife. It's all part of a big masterplan. We don't call him KY for nothing. Oh, hello again!

Don't feel bad, this happens all the time here. People forget the real intent of a post because they are hell-bent on arguing anything brought up. Unfortunately for you, this time, it further proves my point that your "excuses" for the arab world to hate us, is no better than countries like Vietnam could have... only some countries and people chose not to become terrorists. That was why Vietnam was brought up. Remember? Until you or someone has a realistic and better idea of how we should apprehend terror suspects abroad who are considered high priority, we have this method. And while not perfect, regrettably, it must have some value... because like I said, the evil capitalists that we are, I doubt it'd continue to get funding if it didn't amount to anything. Oh, hello again!

I am not confusing anything. Their hatred allows them to justify their actions against civilians. I'm not saying it makes any logical sense, but in their minds it seems to work. In case YOU forgot, while we were "meddling" in Vietnam, we were supporting a regime in the South that many people says was incredibly paranoid and brutal. We also ran operations where we kidnapped people suspected of being VC or agents of the NVA. We also pulled out, leaving many people we said we'd help behind. You don't think that they were pissed off about that? You don't think that people in Vietnam were angry with the US for our involvement there? I'd say it is an even better example than the ones you used since we were directly and actively involved there, as opposed to just monetary and material support. So how would that prevent people in the South from being angry that we maintain a presence there? Or from dividing their countries, or for supporting a war that killed relatives? Again, there are reasons for people to be angry here too, and they are, there have been many protests against the US in S.Korea. But we still don't see them doing what they're doing in the ME. There are many people who have reasons to hate some other group or government. Some get past it and try to make things better. Others use that to justify their abhorrent actions. For those who chose to go on the attack, they (and you) should understand that our government probably won't be very nice to them. Oh, hello again!

Yes, I would be. I never said that their mistake in grabbing this guy was okay. I said I hope they learned from it. I also would hope that it doesn't happen again. I can, however, see the necessity in operations like this. Until there is a better way, what would you suggest we do? You're right, there shouldn't be any ethnicity or anything associated with it. It just so happens that, at the moment, we seem to be looking for Islamic fundamentalists who planning to, or have, attacked the US in some way. Someone else called the US racist for this practice of covert apprehensions. I hardly think that grabbing suspected terrorists in foreign countries is using any and all means. Would these people arguing against this practice be upset if it were Osama bin Laden that was grabbed? We haven't given him due process yet have we? Should we avoid picking him up just because he says he hates the US and has planned to attack it, or should we wait until we convict him then try to get him? If there is GOOD reason to believe that a US citizen has done something like this, I'm all for his apprehension and questioning. Since, as Wendy points out, torture doesn't always yield good intel... I'd suggest we get the info another way. And as the article at the beginning of this post points out, the guy who was mistakenly grabbed was not tortured. So if we're the great evil that so many claim, why would we not have tortured that guy too? As I said, it sucks that it is happening... but it wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a perceived need for it. Until a better way of REALLY finding out what is going on with SUSPECTED terrorists is found... what would you suggest we do? I just hope that since it IS happening, that they take better care on who they pick up. Oh, hello again!

What "sides" are you talking about. Feel free to address me when you've read my posts. Since you seem to see things the same way, my reply to him applies to you. Oh, hello again!

Thanks for the history lesson. Was I talking about the origins of terrorism, or just how this "discovery" that we'll go get people on the downlow would be another excuse for people to justify their hatred? It's a real miracle we don't see Vietnamese and Korean terrorists, isn't it? Just an interesting example you forgot. Your incomplete recount of history is pretty telling to your views and what I can expect to hear from you in the future. No matter what people like you will ever say... I will never beleive that a people who deliberately target and kill civilians just because they're white/black/American/Asian/Whatever... have any legitimacy whatsoever. For you not to see the difference tells me we have nothing to discuss, only more back and forth that won't convince anyone of anything. Oh, hello again!

Keep thinking that. I replied to your post that people would be outraged if the KGB had taken Americans. You never specified where they'd be taken from. Before you jump all over me, know what you wrote. Yeah, I read about him... that was the guy you said was tortured, when he himself said he wasn't. Is it okay that he was grabbed? No, it was a mistake. I should hope the people doing the grabbing learned a lesson. I'd say we were at war with terrorists too. We just don't have a central battlefield to openly engage them, do you think that makes a difference? I didn't say they WERE criminals, I said they are suspected of being criminals. There's an important difference there. You cried "racism" that the US wants to travel and grab people overseas... I refuted you by saying were it not for the racist elitist attitudes of the terrorists, we wouldn't be engaged in grabbing suspected terrorists. The difference is, we wouldn't be hurting innocent people or kidnapping them if there weren't people out there trying to hurt us. Do you not believe that? Did I ever say you hated America? Look, for someone accusing me of hearing only what I want to hear... you've got some work to do. If you can't see the difference between people who purposely attack and kill civilians because we're "infidels" and the people who go out and try to apprehend those same people... I can't help you. Oh, hello again!

Yes. If 60 minutes is calling them out... they've got other problems. If they're gonna do it, do it right at least. Oh, hello again!

Nope, I don't think so. The hatred began before things like this happened, so did terrorism. It's just another convenient excuse for people to use to justify their hate for the US. Don't wonder about it... read. It did happen. Ask the pilots who flew in Vietnam and Korea. And it wasn't just the Russians, the Chinese did it too. Exactly my thoughts about the people in the Muslim world who would attack innocent civilians in the US and other locations, simply because they were Israeli, European, or American. The difference here is that we have people who feel that they are religiously superior to us (among other things), who do not care who they kill, as long as it is one of "us" and that we die. These covert squads taking people are not targeting them because they are brown, or named Mohammed, or because they were born in Syria... they are being targeted because they are suspected in criminal activities. That is a big difference. I know, I know... why are they criminals just because we suspect them? The US is wrong. We're the bad guys. But at a very minimum, since we're capitalist pigs, do you think that the government would really go out of its way to kidnap some random innocent guy, when it probably costs tons just to get it done? I'm not saying they're going to be always right, but I'll bet it takes more investigation than just, "Achmed said he was a bad guy" to authorize a pickup like this. Oh, hello again!

He actually said he wasn't tortured. It's important to read the whole thing so you don't make assumtions that EVERYONE is being tortured. You may still disagree with the practice in place, but it doesn't help to exaggerate. In my opinion, it sucks that it has to exist... but it IS necessary to have this kind of operation going on. If we can't get our hands on guys who are trying to kill Americans because they're hiding out in a "no extradition" country, we lose potentially valuable information. It is an ugly and necessary business in times like this. Many of you don't like it. I can understand that totally. But what would you suggest we do instead? Oh, hello again!

Thanks for posting that. Her story is looking more and more like she's moving away from the conspiracy theories. Of particular interest are these 2 statements she made... Assumed, thought, whatever... now it sounds like she's either going to blame the italians for not telling the Americans or the Americans for not passing the word to the soldiers at the checkpoint. I also notice that now the troops we guarding the Baghdad airport, not roaming around shooting anything they saw. And if you're going to keep saying that we just want to think that the troops made no mistakes... you're right. I believe that we do the best we can and wouldn't intentionally do something like that. I believe that the reporter is hurt, scared, and sad that the man that helped her out is dead. I think she wants to blame someone for her ordeal and his death, as irrational as it is... she'd rather blame us than the terrorists. I want to believe that we are in the clear here, if it was a mistake it was a mistake... no matter which side it came from. I just deplore the tendency of european press to "blame America first"... just like some of our own people do. Oh, hello again!

Based on the evidence and actions available? I guess so, but to me... it just seems more likely. The Italians' actions made me ask questions, you answer them and see what you come up with. The main difference, is that I can accept that the whole thing may have just been a huge fuckup from either or both sides. But given the information we know right now... their actions look more suspicious than those of the "evil American assasination squad." They seem to have convinced themselves that there is a conspiracy, I'm just asking questions and trying to answer them with what I know so far. I haven't decided what DID happen. They did. That's the difference between conspiracy and rational deduction. Oh, hello again!

Of course she's pointing fingers at the US troops. She's part of the "Blame America First" crowd. Some interesting thoughts on the situation... ... If the Italians knew they were getting her out, what possible reason would there be not to alert the nearest US commanders so that they could be escorted or at least expected on a certain route? ... If the Italians had some strange reason for not wanting to tell the people that are posting checkpoints and patrolling their road home, what could that reason have been? Makes me wonder what kind of negotiations got that journalist out. Did they pay for her to be released? Did they make promises that they probably shouldn't have? It makes the whole thing seem really shady to me. Just seems like the Italians had something going on that they knew wasn't in accordance with the coalition practices, and were trying to sneak her out so they wouldn't have to explain what deals they may have made. Now I don't want to think that they did something like that, but the shadiness of the whole thing is suspicious. EDIT: And as for the asinine suggestions from the journalists "partner" that it was an American ambush or assasination attempt... If they wanted everyone in those cars dead, they would be. No question. Why would they try to kill someone, then patch her up and send her home so she could talk shit? Come on... Like I said earlier, rational thought and logic just seem out of reach for an unfortunately large group of people. Oh, hello again!

So far, as you said... it would take a huge failing in logic to assume that the troops at the checkpoint would have acted in any other way. It would also seem pretty logical that a convoy of friendlies would know where the checkpoints are and communicate their passage in advance or heed the protocol of stopping. But hey, that's just what WOULD HAVE made sense. Instead, someone dropped the ball, on the Italian side, and the troops at the checkpoint did what they were supposed to do. Unfortunately, logic and reason won't put out the already flaming anti-US sentiments in Italy. It'll be just another excuse for people to protest. Remember, just like it is easy for people to blame drugs and guns for crime, it is easy for people to blame the US instead of looking at their own mistakes. It's a shame that this mistake cost a seemingly good man his life. Oh, hello again!